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redleghunter

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It's just that Sanctification (Holy Living) is not on that list and it should be. This to me is very suspicious because the Bible talks clearly about Sanctification (Holy living).
The motto has always been:

"We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"

Which even Martin Luther opined in his work Against Antinomianism:

“Works are necessary for salvation butthey do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” ... “Faith alone justifies but a justified person with faith alonewould be a monstrosity which never exists in the kingdom of grace.”

I think the issue is many like to debate the Doctrines of Grace without ever studying them.

Oh there are plenty of internet theologians who think they debate Reformed theology but haven’t a clue of the very basics. They debate straw men.
 
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redleghunter

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God will render to every man according to his deeds
(See Romans 2:5-6).
Of course God will do so. That is why we need a Savior and Lord in Jesus Christ.
 
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The motto has always been:

"We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"

Which even Martin Luther opined in his work Against Antinomianism:

“Works are necessary for salvation butthey do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” ... “Faith alone justifies but a justified person with faith alonewould be a monstrosity which never exists in the kingdom of grace.”

I think the issue is many like to debate the Doctrines of Grace without ever studying them.

Oh there are plenty of internet theologians who think they debate Reformed theology but haven’t a clue of the very basics. They debate straw men.

It's not Faith Alone if one also needs Works as a part of salvation. James even says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (or faith only) (James 2:24).

It's because James says that he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So it is not Faith Alone that saves. If it was, then James would say that faith without works can still be alive.

Works of Faith are a part of one's Faith and they also save.
Otherwise Jesus was not telling the truth when He said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17); Also see Luke 10:25-28.
 
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Of course God will do so. That is why we need a Savior and Lord in Jesus Christ.

Not only for forgiveness of sin, but as a means to overcome grievous sin in our lives. For Jesus saves both in Justification (Ephesians 2:8) and in Sanctification (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5).
 
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mark kennedy

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While you may refer to my postings as: "your at it again" is what I would call: "Preaching the Word (for the glory of Jesus Christ)." For I am told to preach the Word (2 Timothy 4:2). So that is what I am doing.

You cite a lot of verses but you don't spend much time on the natural context, nor do you have much interest in the gospel. You seem to think that a Calvinist is oblivious to the works the follow salvation, not knowing the doctrines of grace, that is not surprising nor is it unique.

Well, I fail to see how quoting the context here proves your erroneous view of "Belief Alone Salvationism" in any way.

It's called justification by grace through faith and none of the works that necessarily follow are any less a work of God's sovereign will or divine grace. That's the problem, your merit means nothing, the works we do we do by faith in Christ who loved us and gave himself for us. Feel free to beat the stuffings out of your strawman but I know Calvinism and what your arguing against has nothing to do with it.

If you think Calvinists are soft on sin consider the fact that they famously preach fire and brimstone for all who do not seek with all their heart the mercies of God in Christ Jesus:

God seems now to be hastily gathering in his elect in all parts of the land; and probably the greater part of adult persons that ever shall be saved, will be brought in now in a little time, and that it will be as it was on the great out-pouring of the Spirit upon the Jews in the apostles’ days; the election will obtain, and the rest will be blinded. If this should be the case with you, you will eternally curse this day, and will curse the day that ever you was born, to see such a season of the pouring out of God’s Spirit, and will wish that you had died and gone to hell before you had seen it. Now undoubtedly it is, as it was in the days of John the Baptist, the axe is in an extraordinary manner laid at the root of the trees, that every tree which brings not forth good fruit, may be hewn down and cast into the fire. (Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. by the Rev. Jonathan Edwards)
Just understand, apart from Christ you can do nothing.

Lets look at the verses.

"So speak and so act as [people should] who are to be judged under the law of liberty [the moral instruction given by Christ, especially about love]." (James 2:12) (AMP).

"There will be no mercy in judgment for anyone who hasn’t shown mercy. Mercy overrules judgment." (James 2:13) (CEB).​

The believers James is writing to were favoring the rich brethren and they did not regard the poor brethren.

Yes I'm aware of the context and the content of the passage, I've reminded you of it repeatedly or I think I might never of heard it from you at all.

These kind of believers will have no mercy when they are faced by Christ at the judgment because they did not love their brother (or love their neighbor). We will be judged under the law of liberty (in loving God and loving others).

"But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin,"
(James 2:9).​

I know what James is referring to and these were not new converts and the issue here isn't justification by grace through faith, James has already addressed this sufficiently:

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. (James 1:19-21)
That word is what saves you not your petty works. Of course God takes it personally how you treat other believers, that's not the point.

This is why James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Their actions were not in line with their faith in Christ, and they had a dead faith that cannot save by their not loving the brethren.

Of course the child of God bears fruit but that is by grace through faith and let me make myself perfectly clear, your merit counts for nothing.

We see this also expressed by John.

"Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).​

Also, in James we read:

21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:21-22).​

About time you spent some time on the context. But I see your back to beating the stuffings out of your favorite strawman.

So the point here is not Easy Believism but it is in being a doer of the Word unless one is deceiving themselves. We are told to lay apart all filthiness of the flesh and receive the Word, which is able to save our souls. Filthiness is in reference to sin. We are to put away sin out of our lives and receive God's Word in being a doer of it as a part of saving our souls.

What self respecting Calvinist would deny any of that, we despise easy believism with a passion. Those works are by grace and when you make your works a matter of earning your own salvation you rob God of the glory that is meant to come from them. The emphasis has to be what God does in us and for us by grace through faith, the rest is vanity of the highest order.

Well, you act like you think the context proves your point but it doesn't. You also are insulting me by telling me to learn the context (When I am 100% fully aware of what the context says). Works of faith prove that one's faith is genuine. That is what James is saying here.

Down the road, of course works follow. James is outraged that the poor are so mistreated but understand, this was very common in that culture and Christian faith is never common. James wanted them to find their faith and express it as those who must give an account. Yes, they were carnal but James isn't telling them they were going to hell because they were acting foolishly, any more then Paul was when he rebuked Peter.

James point is not Easy Believism or Faith Alone in this passage because he says we are justified (saved) by works and not by faith alone (See James 2:24). James says faith without works is dead and he makes his point that you not only need a belief but you also need works to show that belief to be true. This is why Abraham and Rahab were both justified by their works after their belief or faith in God. Just as the body is dead without the spirit, faith without works is dead also. Can a dead faith access the saving grace of God? No.

Whoever claimed that saving faith was easy? That's your strawman, not the Protestant doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Where is the gospel in your posts because I still don't see you proclaiming it when you tell me that you are called to preach. I hear a lot about works but nothing of the cross, the power of grace to equip us for service or the day when God alone will be glorified and praised for the riches of his grace.

That's the problem Jason, what I'm waiting to hear from you is the gospel.

If works play no part in the salvation process, then Paul would not confuse his readers by saying that a person can deny God by being reprobate in regards to good works. A person can deny God by their work. This is confirmed also in 1 John 2:4. For a person who says that they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (i.e. the Truth being Jesus). A person needs to abide in Christ to be saved. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Most Belief Alone Proponents (not exactly you) believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. However, this is turning God's grace into a license for immorality (licentiousness) because it is teaching a person can be like a King David and be saved while they commit sin.

Who are we to judge someone else's servant?

What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” (Romans 4:3-8)
Of course you missed that so let me point it out, 'God justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness'. It also says, 'God credits righteousness apart from works'.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 is a general statement before the talk of any money. It does not mention money yet and it's evils. Even if it was talking about money, it would not change anything. It would still prove that we need to agree with godliness and the words of Jesus otherwise we do not know anything and we are proud.

Yet goes on at the heart of the emphasis to say 'constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.' At the heart of the emphasis, that's the context you so skillfully manage to navigate around.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says a person is proud if they do not agree with godliness and the words of Jesus. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. In other words, a person who thinks they can sin and still be saved or who justifies sin on some level is proud because they think they can do evil under God's grace (When in reality God cannot agree with sin).

Who are these people who teach such things, my Calvinist brethren would be appalled. Grace is the means to salvation, sanctification and works of righteousness, to God be the glory. Works follow salvation, they are in fact salvation, they are not the means to that end in any way shape or form.

No doubt, you are quoting the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee so as to make a point about being humble. However, you need to understand that the Bible teaches both Justification (Seeking forgiveness with the Savior) and it also teaches Sanctification (Holy living by the Spirit). Both are a part of salvation (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So a person can be humble in Justification and they can be humble in Sanctification. The Pharisee was not humble here because he was refusing to repent of his sins. The Parable does not say that this is the forever state of the believer. In fact, the point that he is a Pharisee shows that he did not accept Jesus as His Savior, and he desperately needed to do so. That is the point of the Parable. For Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, FAITH, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

In fact, we know that the Tax Collector is not going to always live in a defeated state every day or every week in confessing his sins to GOD his whole life because the Bible also teaches that we can overcome grievous sin (See: 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 2:12, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 1 Corinthians 15:34, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Philippians 2:15, Romans 6:6-8, Romans 6:16, Hebrews 13:20-21, 1 John 2:5, 1 John 5:19, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:7, 1 Thessalonians 5:23. In fact, the Bible talk warns us about how there are false prophets who cannot cease from sin (See: 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

None of us cease to sin Jason, until the blessed hope of the redemption of the purchased price:

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal. 3:2)
Where is the cross in your lessons Jason? The atonement, the power of the Holy Spirit, or the gifts of grace that equip us for service? How do you keep missing this? Of course God wants us to be blameless and upright, to shun evil and to do good. Those who come to Christ without repentance are the worst kind of hypocrites and I know this from personal experience, I'll spare you the details.

I would really like to agree with you on some of this, I don't like incomplete repentance either. I would never want the whitewash of religion that leads me to mistreat another believer, that will get you a hotspot in hell I'm sure of it, and fear it above all things. What kind of a wretched salvation would leave us to wallow in our slavish carnality and offer no means to rebuild our ruined estate. If that were salvation it would be a miserable existence I could never embrace by faith, it would be the worst kind of a lie. God extends his grace in love and mercy when we deserve nothing of the sort, because he wants to see us, blameless and holy, God is glorified by the sinner who throws down his weapons of sin and surrenders to the terrible grace of God defeated, and willing heart and soul to submit to his will.

I think you mean well, I wouldn't bother with this walls of text otherwise. Your struggling with something we all do, how do we honor the God who loved us and sent his Son to die for us. We don't do that my languishing in sin and turning the grace of God into licentiousness, as Paul said, God forbid.

Where is the gospel in all of this? The walls of text and the single resounding theme of your every post? That works are a means to salvation. We do not despise our Arminian brethren, we embrace them as fellow believers we have some issues with. We don't reject repentance or works of righteousness, we celebrate them and praise God for them. But what is the means to that end?

Justification by grace through faith, once in a while you might just want to consider that.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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You cite a lot of verses but you don't spend much time on the natural context, nor do you have much interest in the gospel. You seem to think that a Calvinist is oblivious to the works the follow salvation, not knowing the doctrines of grace, that is not surprising nor is it unique.



It's called justification by grace through faith and none of the works that necessarily follow are any less a work of God's sovereign will or divine grace. That's the problem, your merit means nothing, the works we do we do by faith in Christ who loved us and gave himself for us. Feel free to beat the stuffings out of your strawman but I know Calvinism and what your arguing against has nothing to do with it.

If you think Calvinists are soft on sin consider the fact that they famously preach fire and brimstone for all who do not seek with all their heart the mercies of God in Christ Jesus:

God seems now to be hastily gathering in his elect in all parts of the land; and probably the greater part of adult persons that ever shall be saved, will be brought in now in a little time, and that it will be as it was on the great out-pouring of the Spirit upon the Jews in the apostles’ days; the election will obtain, and the rest will be blinded. If this should be the case with you, you will eternally curse this day, and will curse the day that ever you was born, to see such a season of the pouring out of God’s Spirit, and will wish that you had died and gone to hell before you had seen it. Now undoubtedly it is, as it was in the days of John the Baptist, the axe is in an extraordinary manner laid at the root of the trees, that every tree which brings not forth good fruit, may be hewn down and cast into the fire. (Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. by the Rev. Jonathan Edwards)
Just understand, apart from Christ you can do nothing.



Yes I'm aware of the context and the content of the passage, I've reminded you of it repeatedly or I think I might never of heard it from you at all.



I know what James is referring to and these were not new converts and the issue here isn't justification by grace through faith, James has already addressed this sufficiently:

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. (James 1:19-21)
That word is what saves you not you petty works. Of course God takes it personally how you treat other believers, that's not the point.



Of course the child of God bears fruit but that is by grace through faith and let me make myself perfectly clear, you merit counts for nothing.



About time you spent some time on the context. But I see your back to beating the stuffings out of your favorite strawman.



What self respecting Calvinist would deny any of that, we despise easy believing with a passion. Those works are by grace and when you make your works a matter of earning you own salvation you rob God of the glory that is meant to come from them. The emphasis has to be what God does in us and for us by grace through faith, the rest is vanity of the highest order.

Well, you act like you think the context proves your point but it doesn't. You also are insulting me by telling me to learn the context (When I am 100% fully aware of what the context says). Works of faith prove that one's faith is genuine. That is what James is saying here.



Whoever claimed that saving faith was easy? That's your strawman, not the Protestant doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Where is the gospel in your posts because I still don't see you proclaiming it when you tell me that you are called to preach. I hear a lot about works but nothing of the cross, the power of grace to equip us for service or the day when God alone will be glorified and praised for the riches of his grace.

That's the problem Jason, what I'm waiting to hear from you is the gospel.



Who are we to judge someone else's servant?

What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” (Romans 4:3-8)
Of course you missed that so let me point it out, 'God justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness'. It also says, 'God credits righteousness apart from works'.



Yet goes on at the heart of the emphasis to say 'constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.' At the heart of the emphasis, that's the context you so skillfully manage to navigate around.



Who are these people who teach such things, my Calvinist brethren would be appalled. Grace is the means to salvation, sanctification and works of righteousness, to God be the glory. Works follow salvation, they are in fact salvation, they are not the means to that end in any way shape or form.



None of us cease to sin Jason, until the blessed hope of the redemption of the purchased price:

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal. 3:2)
Where is the cross in your lessons Jason? The atonement, the power of the Holy Spirit, or the gifts of grace that equip us for service? How do you keep missing this? Of course God wants us to be blameless and upright, to shun evil and to do good. Those who come to Christ without repentance are the worst kind of hypocrites and I know this from personal experience, I'll spare you the details.

I would really like to agree with you on some of this, I don't like incomplete repentance either. I would never want the whitewash of religion that leads me to mistreat another believer, that will get you a hotspot in hell I'm sure of it, and fear it above all things. What kind of a wretched salvation would leave us to wallow in our slavish carnality and offer no means to rebuild our ruined estate. If that were salvation it would be a miserable existence I could never embrace by faith, it would be the worst kind of a lie. God extends his grace in love and mercy when we deserve nothing of the sort, because he wants to see us, blameless and holy, God is glorified by the sinner who throws down his weapons of sin and surrenders to the terrible grace of God defeated, and willing heart and soul to submit to his will.

I think you mean well, I wouldn't bother with this walls of text otherwise. Your struggling with something we all do, how do we honor the God who loved us and sent his Son to die for us. We don't do that my languishing in sin and turning the grace of God into licentiousness, as Paul said, God forbid.

Where is the gospel in all of this? The walls of text and the single resounding theme of your every post? That works are a means to salvation. We do not despise our Arminian brethren, we embrace them as fellow believers we have some issues with. We don't reject repentance or works of righteousness, we celebrate them and praise God for them. But what is the means to that end?

Justification by grace through faith, once in a while you might just want to consider that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

If you are not convinced by what I say with God's Word in rebuttal, nothing I will see any further will help you to see where I am coming from. I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink. So lets agree to disagree. You see things in the Bible that I frankly do not see there. My encouragement to you is to ask if your belief is moral and good with God. Pray to Him and ask Him.

In any event, may God bless you.
 
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mark kennedy

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Like I said, you have not been perfected, you can't even admit that you are capable of even accidentally missing the mark. That has you elevating yourself to perfected status if not God Himself. I am outta here.
Your not the first to try or the last to fail at making him see that point. That's Jason, please don't judge him too harshly, he means well.
 
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mark kennedy

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If you are not convinced by what I say with God's Word in rebuttal, nothing I will see any further will help you to see where I am coming from. I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink. So lets agree to disagree. You see things in the Bible that I frankly do not see there. My encouragement to you is to ask if your belief is moral and good with God. Pray to Him and ask Him.

In any event, may God bless you.
I do ask God for those things and I've asked you for one thing and one thing only, the gospel, and yet you refuse. I'm not trolling your posts, I want you to understand the primacy of the gospel, yet you refuse. We will not and do not agree to disagree because this is no small matter. My belief is that God's will is absolutely moral, and perfectly virtuous and anything less then that is unworthy of him.

The cross Jason, where is that in your posts? We are going to come back to that again and again. I like you Jason but agreeing to disagree at this point is simply not going to happen. Other then that continue to expect to see my responses because this thing about works without the gospel is simply unacceptable.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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It's not Faith Alone if one also needs Works as a part of salvation. James even says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (or faith only) (James 2:24).

It's because James says that he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So it is not Faith Alone that saves. If it was, then James would say that faith without works can still be alive.

Works of Faith are a part of one's Faith and they also save.
Otherwise Jesus was not telling the truth when He said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17); Also see Luke 10:25-28.


Good Day, Jason

Works are not part of Justification, that is not the gospel that is self Justification though the law, and you will for sure fail.

Works of faith are the results of faith not the cause of faith, that cause would be God.

It is the work of God that you believe... Jn 6


In Him,

Bill
 
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Ken Rank

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Your not the first to try or the last to fail at making him see that point. That's Jason, please don't judge him too harshly, he means well.
I know he does Mark, thank you for reminding me though. Blessings.
 
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redleghunter

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It's not Faith Alone if one also needs Works as a part of salvation.
It's quite clear from Scriptures especially Romans, Ephesians and Galatians works are not a part of what saves us. If that was the case Christ would not be called our Savior. The Faith that is not alone means saving faith, effectual faith produces the work of the Root of our Salvation. We cannot bear fruit without Christ. Those in Christ imitate Him. The Father conforms us to the image of the Son.

Therefore, as James says if one does not have this emulating fruit to bear, Paul says to examine ourselves to see if we are truly of and in Christ. He also tells us that the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit if we are children of God.

James even says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (or faith only) (James 2:24).

Jason it's a package deal for lack of a better layman term. The Apostle Paul shows us the order of Salvation in Ephesians 2. (NB: not putting a clock on this)

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

(1) We are dead as a door nail not seeking God. We are dead spiritually to the Grace of God. We lived in the passions of what we liked most thus living and choosing ('free will) according to the master we served. This is the bondage of the 'free will.'

(2) By nature we are children of wrath and our destination is the Lake of Fire because God will judge us and the wrath of God remains on us unless we have a Savior.

(3) In this dead state by God's Grace He will call us and make us alive together with Christ. The KJV uses "quickening" I like that better. It is here where we are made painfully aware of our condemned and sinful state. As damned and destitute sinners we repent and confess the Lord Jesus Christ with our mouth and in our hearts believe He is Risen from the dead.

(4) After being made alive by God, He too 'raises us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Notice the change of address here. We immediately receive change of address cards from the Lake of Fire to being seated with Him in heavenly places. Our new residence.

(5) Then the apostle Paul shows us what we just learned. All of it (#1-#4) is by God's Grace and no one can boast of anything aforementioned. Verses 8-9 make this painfully clear.

(6) Then what is said by the apostle? Is that based on this Grace of God we are His workmanship, meaning He has made this so, He has created us, made us born again. We are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand (wow beforehand) so that we would walk in them. That is a Promise. And He gives us the Holy Spirit as the seal of this Promise.

Therefore, being a new creation in Christ Jesus we are His workmanship. We are created in Christ Jesus for good works. None of the above has the effect of God's regeneration (His workmanship) as the cause for our Justification, Sanctification nor Glorification. How can we add to such a Glory as His Grace alone? We can't because God is the one who is creating us in Christ Jesus for good works. All the Glory to God alone!

It's because James says that he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So it is not Faith Alone that saves. If it was, then James would say that faith without works can still be alive.
James is correct and you are drawing a wrong conclusion. James is right because those who are born again, God's workmanship have saving faith which good works were prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I know, the question is what if they don't? Then such is not saving faith. The faith which comes from the Grace of God as just explained in Ephesians chapter 2 is saving faith. The exhortation from the apostle Paul would then be examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith the KJV version has it best worded:

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

And

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:15-17)

Works of Faith are a part of one's Faith and they also save.
First part is correct. Works of faith are wrought by God and will be part of saving faith. Second part is not correct. Our works don't save us. Ephesians 2 and Romans chapters 1-5 make this clear. The works God beforehand prepared for us to walk is God's Grace and His Glory. We can't take credit for it. If we could then Christ's death is needless.

Otherwise Jesus was not telling the truth when He said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17); Also see Luke 10:25-28.
That's correct. What you just posited is the litmus test for lack of a better term. His sheep will follow Him and obey Him. Something supernatural happens to those (all of us) who are dead and children of wrath. I explained what happens, the new birth and change of address.
 
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It's quite clear from Scriptures especially Romans, Ephesians and Galatians works are not a part of what saves us. If that was the case Christ would not be called our Savior. The Faith that is not alone means saving faith, effectual faith produces the work of the Root of our Salvation. We cannot bear fruit without Christ. Those in Christ imitate Him. The Father conforms us to the image of the Son.

Therefore, as James says if one does not have this emulating fruit to bear, Paul says to examine ourselves to see if we are truly of and in Christ. He also tells us that the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit if we are children of God.



Jason it's a package deal for lack of a better layman term. The Apostle Paul shows us the order of Salvation in Ephesians 2. (NB: not putting a clock on this)

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

(1) We are dead as a door nail not seeking God. We are dead spiritually to the Grace of God. We lived in the passions of what we liked most thus living and choosing ('free will) according to the master we served. This is the bondage of the 'free will.'

(2) By nature we are children of wrath and our destination is the Lake of Fire because God will judge us and the wrath of God remains on us unless we have a Savior.

(3) In this dead state by God's Grace He will call us and make us alive together with Christ. The KJV uses "quickening" I like that better. It is here where we are made painfully aware of our condemned and sinful state. As damned and destitute sinners we repent and confess the Lord Jesus Christ with our mouth and in our hearts believe He is Risen from the dead.

(4) After being made alive by God, He too 'raises us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Notice the change of address here. We immediately receive change of address cards from the Lake of Fire to being seated with Him in heavenly places. Our new residence.

(5) Then the apostle Paul shows us what we just learned. All of it (#1-#4) is by God's Grace and no one can boast of anything aforementioned. Verses 8-9 make this painfully clear.

(6) Then what is said by the apostle? Is that based on this Grace of God we are His workmanship, meaning He has made this so, He has created us, made us born again. We are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand (wow beforehand) so that we would walk in them. That is a Promise. And He gives us the Holy Spirit as the seal of this Promise.

Therefore, being a new creation in Christ Jesus we are His workmanship. We are created in Christ Jesus for good works. None of the above has the effect of God's regeneration (His workmanship) as the cause for our Justification, Sanctification nor Glorification. How can we add to such a Glory as His Grace alone? We can't because God is the one who is creating us in Christ Jesus for good works. All the Glory to God alone!


James is correct and you are drawing a wrong conclusion. James is right because those who are born again, God's workmanship have saving faith which good works were prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I know, the question is what if they don't? Then such is not saving faith. The faith which comes from the Grace of God as just explained in Ephesians chapter 2 is saving faith. The exhortation from the apostle Paul would then be examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith the KJV version has it best worded:

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

And

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:15-17)


First part is correct. Works of faith are wrought by God and will be part of saving faith. Second part is not correct. Our works don't save us. Ephesians 2 and Romans chapters 1-5 make this clear. The works God beforehand prepared for us to walk is God's Grace and His Glory. We can't take credit for it. If we could then Christ's death is needless.


That's correct. What you just posited is the litmus test for lack of a better term. His sheep will follow Him and obey Him. Something supernatural happens to those (all of us) who are dead and children of wrath. I explained what happens, the new birth and change of address.

I am not denying that we can do works of faith (or good works) without Christ (GOD) in our lives. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. The works we do are the works and fruit of God. But we also have free will and we are not forced against our will to surrender to the working of God in our life. The Scriptures make this fact abundantly clear.

We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21."​


These verses above would not exist in our Bible if things are as you say and we will just automatically do the things of God by His abiding in us. We have to choose each day in whom we will serve. We are not forced against our will to serve God. So no, it is not Faith Alone, because we have to be continue to be faithful by obeying God. Do you always obey God? That right there should tell you that we have a responsibility to surrender to God and it is not some kind of automatic thing that is forced upon us.
 
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Good Day, Jason

Works are not part of Justification, that is not the gospel that is self Justification though the law, and you will for sure fail.

Works of faith are the results of faith not the cause of faith, that cause would be God.

It is the work of God that you believe... Jn 6


In Him,

Bill

Not true. James says works are a part of justification.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

It is odd how the only place that talks about "faith only" (or faith alone) it is in context to how we need works to authenticate that faith. For "by works a man is justified" as James says. James says in James 2:18 that he will show you his faith by his works. James says in James 2:17 that faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith access the saving grace of God? No.

I suppose that is why Luther called the book of James an epistle of straw. He did not like what the book of James had to say. I imagine many Christians today wish the book of James was not in the Bible.
 
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redleghunter

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Not only for forgiveness of sin, but as a means to overcome grievous sin in our lives. For Jesus saves both in Justification (Ephesians 2:8) and in Sanctification (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5).
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are completely involved in our Sanctification. I agree to that and that is how we are conformed to the image of the Son, Jesus Christ.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called (Jude 1:1)

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)

Our Triune God is fully involved. But of course God is because do we think we can make ourselves born again or even raise ourselves from the dead?
 
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redleghunter

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I am not denying that we can do works of faith (or good works) without Christ (GOD) in our lives. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. The works we do are the works and fruit of God. But we also have free will and we are not forced against our will to surrender to the working of God in our life. The Scriptures make this fact abundantly clear.

Please define "free will." I think that is a problem in a lot of these threads.

Let's start how you see our free will chooses God in the first place. We can take it from there.
 
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BBAS 64

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Not true. James says works are a part of justification.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

It is odd how the only place that talks about "faith only" (or faith alone) it is in context to how we need works to authenticate that faith. For "by works a man is justified" as James says. James says in James 2:18 that he will show you his faith by his works. James says in James 2:17 that faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith access the saving grace of God? No.

I suppose that is why Luther called the book of James an epistle of straw. He did not like what the book of James had to say.

Good day,

From one of the top 2 Greek exegeses alive today...

Do Paul and James Disagree on Justification by Faith Alone?



You may want to get his version of the NT and read his explanation on that comment in the 1522 edition of his NT. Because it is clear from your conclusion (he did not) you are lacking the primary context of the statement and built your self a good little Straw-man.

Six Points On Luther’s “Epistle of Straw” | Alpha and Omega Ministries

In Him,
 
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The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are completely involved in our Sanctification. I agree to that and that is how we are conformed to the image of the Son, Jesus Christ.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called (Jude 1:1)

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)

Our Triune God is fully involved. But of course God is because do we think we can make ourselves born again or even raise ourselves from the dead?

Again, I am not denying God sanctifies the believer (Which would include all three persons of the Godhead sanctifying a believer). But we have to surrender to God. God is not going to do that for us. John 14:23 says that if we keep His commandments, He [Jesus] and the Father will make their abode [home] in a person. This implies a responsibility on our part. We have to obey His commands. God is not going to obey His commands for us. We have to surrender to the working of God in our life and obey Him. We have to obey God's Sanctification process. A person can fight and resist against this process if they desire. People have free will.
 
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In other words, you have to cooperate with God and the Sanctification process that he works through believers. God does not force Himself upon anyone. People are not rag dolls being moved about by God. We have to cooperate. This is why you have to obey as a part of the faith. Not God. You. You must obey.
 
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Ken Rank

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Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.
The word for perfect is teleios, it means complete, whole, wanting nothing necessary to completeness. Again, and I am just trying to give you a chance to be intellectually honest and look outside your own lens.... are you seriously taking the position that you have NEVER had road rage or gotten angry, or looked at another woman too long (lustfully), or suffered from pride? Never since coming to know the Lord, NEVER? Just answer that one question with a simple yes or no. Thanks.
 
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The word for perfect is teleios, it means complete, whole, wanting nothing necessary to completeness. Again, and I am just trying to give you a chance to be intellectually honest and look outside your own lens.... are you seriously taking the position that you have NEVER had road rage or gotten angry, or looked at another woman too long (lustfully), or suffered from pride? Never since coming to know the Lord, NEVER? Just answer that one question with a simple yes or no. Thanks.

You can play Greek word games, but the context says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Are you saying the Father is not perfect?
 
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