How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

[BobRyan]

a gentile would have sought to keep the law through the Jews.

I am a gentile - I don't try to "keep the law through the jews" -- what gentiles do you know??

Are you a gentile? is that what you try to do???

no gentile offered a sacrifice or entered the holy of holies

Jews did not enter the holy place or the most holy place - only the high priest. Christ is our High Priest after the cross - before the cross there was the nation-church model God created for all mankind with Israel as the evangelists.

Did you read the texts making this point??

7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Is 56:
This is what the Lord says:
“Guard justice and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is a man who does this,
And a son of man who takes hold of it;
Who keeps from profaning the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will certainly separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”
4 For this is what the Lord says:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold firmly to My covenant,
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be eliminated.
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Salvation is from the Jews - because the Saviour of mankind is a Jew - and the nation-church setup by God at Sinai was to evangelize the entire world. But that is not saying that gentiles hope the Jews do right "instead of the gentiles doing right".

Gentiles did not claim to "obey God through the Jews" in OT or NT. In Acts 13, 17, 18 we see gentiles in the Synagogues on Sabbath worshipping God.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree. As Paul tells us clearly, we are expected to (2 Timothy 2:15)

Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Only by rightly dividing the word of truth for

• Israel
• The Body of Christ

will one be able to make sense of scripture without worrying about contradictions.

Agreed.

And step one for that
Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:8 "The gospel was preached to Abraham"
Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"
Namely "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1 Peter 1:10-12

 

[Guojing]

Agreed.

And step one for that
Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:8 "The gospel was preached to Abraham"
Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"
Namely "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1 Peter 1:10-12

I suggest you read Galatians 1:6-9 properly.

You won't conclude there is only One gospel.

You will instead conclude there is only one gospel for the gentiles, which is the one they are receiving from Paul.

 

[Leaf473]

I see a lot of people who say Israel is Israel and the church is the church and they are separate.

So my question is who is Israel exactly according to the bible?

Well... that's where things can sometimes get interesting. Israel can mean the man, the son of Isaac. It can mean that man's physical descendants. Or it can mean the church, the Israel of God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

(CLV) Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

(CLV) Jer 31:32
Not like the covenant which I contracted with their fathers in the day I held fast onto their hand to bring them forth from the land of Egypt, which covenant of Mine they themselves annulled while I was Possessor over them, averring is Yahweh.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

This is the covenant. Would YHWH go back on his word, and neglect to write his Torah on the hearts of his people? Can we say that we are in this renewed covenant; if his Torah is not written on our hearts?

God’s renewed covenant is about a balanced individual, which is why God writes His law in both our hearts and our minds.

We all should be careful to have a balance. Many love God and have His laws written in the heart, but not the mind, so they only follow the laws they want and focus more on the emotion.

The legalistic focus on just the laws in the mind, but its not the in the heart.

The balance is when you love God, you keep His commandments. The love comes first, but the mind knows the law of God and the law is kept through love and faith.

Happy Sabbath!

 

[HIM]

I suggest you read Galatians 1:6-9 properly.

You won't conclude there is only One gospel.

You will instead conclude there is only one gospel for the gentiles, which is the one they are receiving from Paul.

It is a sin to teach falsely in the name of Christ.

 

[Leaf473]

It is contradictory for someone to think that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit and to think that what he said was not in complete agreement with everything that God has said. Those who interpret what Paul said as not being in complete agreement with everything that God has said are treating him as though what he said was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so we should be quicker to disregard everything that Paul had said than to disregard anything that God has said, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who was in complete agreement with everything that God has said.

My thought is to look for a way to take what is recorded by the prophets of old and the apostles in the New Testament and have it all match up.

 

[GDL]

If you use the NIV, instead of the KJV, to interpret this verse, then you have to agree that what James and the elders said to Paul, in Acts 21:21, was actually correct.

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Hi Guojing. If you're in Singapore it looks like we're about 12 hours apart. After I wrote what I did to DaveM, I was considering whether or not to take you up on your post #79 to see where we would take this, but it was late here when I saw it.

As we begin, I'd like to make certain I understand what you mean above and to let you know I read from Greek most of the time to check English translations.

I quoted the NIV to make the point about the word "and" that I highlighted in Gal6:16 in the NET translation to show that the NIV interprets Paul as saying that all who follow this rule (his standard of thinking - what Paul says about Christ, crucifixion, circumcision, and the new creation, in Gal6:14-15) are the Israel of God. The NET translation notes said this was a possible translation choice.

So, you're saying that, if I agree that those who agree with Paul's standard of thinking about Christ are the Israel of God, then I must agree that James and the elders told Paul that there are many ten thousands among the Jews who had believed, and all are being "zealots/loyalists of the law" who were informed that Paul is teaching all the Jews (literally & most simply "according to the nations") apostasy/defection from Moses, by saying not to circumcise the children and not to walk [in] the customs?

Where would you like to go to see what Paul was actually teaching, other than to the Gal6 verses I posted? He doesn't get to explain too much in Acts 21-22 before some Jews were trying to kill him.

As I said in another post in this thread, once you learn to rightly divide the word of truth, you will find all these scripture passages much easier to understand.

It normally concerns me when some infer that they are rightly dividing and have understanding. I'm sure you know there are several theological camps that divide the Word differently.

Paul is referring to the Body of Christ, and yes you are correct, there is neither Jew nor gentile there.

So, you agree that there is no racial distinction in the Body of Christ - that Jew and Gentile are unified as Christians?

Once you believe that Christ died for your sins, and rose again on the 3rd day for your justification (aka 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), you become a member of the Body of Christ.

FWIW, I don't think 1Cor15:1-4 is the foundation of the Good News according to Paul and that he is simply referring the Corinthians back to a part of what he had previously taught them, so he could deal with some disagreement regarding the vital importance of Christ's resurrection.

I've read many of your posts in threads over some time. As I recall, these verses may be very important to the way you divide the Scriptures.

I've dropped most camps type labels in favor of just analyzing Scripture, but would you refer to your dividing as dispensational, or any such thing?

But Israel is not the Body of Christ.

I would disagree with you here but would want to play this out a bit. We could begin wherever you like, but I'd probably point us to Ephesians 2:10-19, beyond the Galatians 6 verses I briefly referenced above, and some others.

Israel only consists of the physical descendants of Abraham. They either believe that Jesus is their Messiah, which makes them True Israel, or they reject Jesus as their Messiah, meaning they are natural but not True Israel.

My same comments as just above + a few I made in my post to DaveM. Maybe we'll end up hitting some things that will answer him better than I did before.

A request please: Let's not hit too much at once and let's deal in depth with any Scripture we do discuss. You seem well-versed in your thinking and most of these discussions quickly go into way too much cross-referencing and ingrained systematic theological thinking to be productive.

Thanks.

 

[BobRyan]

I suggest you read Galatians 1:6-9 properly.

You won't conclude there is only One gospel.

You will instead conclude there is only one gospel for the gentiles, which is the one they are receiving from Paul.

The text does not say "for gentiles" but for all
Abraham was not a "gentile" and that one and only Gospel was preached to Abraham.

Your response indicates you believe in two gospels.

Let's see what Paul says about such an idea in the verses you are not quoting.

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (Apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

There is no room there for "this only applies if you are talking about the gentile gospel because there is another gospel a Jewish one that is for Jewish Christians like me... that one is not for you" in Gal 1.

Gal 3:8 tells us that the one and only gospel of Gal 1:6-9 was "preached to Abraham" - which is the nail in the coffin of the two-gospel system already condemned in Gal 1.

So what WAS that OT Gospel?

Peter says it was - "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1 Peter 1:10-12

My thought is to look for a way to take what is recorded by the prophets of old and the apostles in the New Testament and have it all match up.

Peter already did that apparently. Read Is 53??
No wonder Paul condemns the two Gospel system

 

[HIM]

I guess the first necessary condition is that you have to belong to the house of Israel?

Read Romans 10:6-8 and Deut. 29:1 and 30:10-14 in respect Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:10

 

[BobRyan]

Guojing said: ↑
I guess the first necessary condition is that you have to belong to the house of Israel?

You appear to be saying you are not under the New Covenant - is that right??

Read Romans 10:6-8 and Deut. 29:1 and 30:10-14 in respect Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:10

And Rom 2:25-29, Rom 9:6-8

 

[Leaf473]

Animal sacrifice applied to both Jews and gentiles at that time as we see in Is 56:6-8. (Explains why Adam and Noah engaged in it -- not just Jacob... not just Abraham) Maybe you meant to pick something else? or are you saying that those with a Bible telling them about animal sacrifice - would not happen to have a Bible with Heb 10 in it so they would not know if animal sacrifice as a form of worship had come to an end?

So... Is that a Yes, Jeremiah and his readers would have thought that the animal sacrifice laws were also God's laws?

 

[HIM]

So... Is that a Yes, Jeremiah and his readers would have thought that the animal sacrifice laws were also God's laws?

What does it matter? Most had no clue what the Messiah was all about when he came and before He did. Most still don't.

 

[Leaf473]

Peter already did that apparently. Read Is 53??
No wonder Paul condemns the two Gospel system

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Yes, I've read Isaiah 53. If Peter said it, then let's follow it, along with the rest of the Apostles and Prophets.

 

[HIM]

And Rom 2:25-29, Rom 9:6-8

While we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly. The gift of the Gospel, the New Covenant is upon all. For it is certain that in Him we live, move and have our being whether we recognize Him or not. (Acts 17) This is the way it has been since the fall. His Spirit has always pressed upon our hearts. That we may hear and heed that still small voice and give glory to and in His precious name.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[DaveM]

I suggest you read Galatians 1:6-9 properly.

You won't conclude there is only One gospel.

You will instead conclude there is only one gospel for the gentiles, which is the one they are receiving from Paul.

This is very interesting and something I recently heard from a friend.

When I read Galatians 1 it is clear Paul is saying there is only one gospel and anything else is FALSE, it seems that another FALSE gospel had come about and he was warning them about it. He is actually warning us of the very thing you ae trying to convince us of. It is very plain and simple to see this.
IMO respectively of course.

I would also like to add you say there is one gospel for the gentiles they are receiving from Paul, Paul preached that gospel to the Jews as well.

But I have heard your view before and would love to know what scripture supports it.

Galatians 1:6-9
No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently, some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!


Thanks

 

[Leaf473]

What does it matter? Most had no clue what the Messiah was all about when he came and before He did. Most still don't.

I think it matters a great deal.

Going back to the train of thought that starts about here,

Exegesis demands that when rendering the correct meaning of the New Covenant text Jer 31:31-34 where the New Covenant is defined - that we keep in mind "context" so as to avoid "pretext". We have to accept that Jeremiah and his readers knew full well that the moral law of God included the TEN so when they reference God's Law written on the heart and mind there is no possibility of our eisegeting "and of course Jeremiah would never have thought the Law spoken by God from Sinai was the Law of God.. nor would his readers understood the term to have that idea in it".

And when the Jer 31 NEW COVENANT is repeated verbatim in Heb 8 Paul does not qualify/edit it with "of course NOT THAT Law of God" or "of course NOT THAT New Covenant"

the issue is what laws does God write on our heart?

See also

Many will say that but have a redefined idea about what is or is not the Law of God in Jeremiah's statement

So the definition of the law of God is important.

 

[GDL]

Abraham was not a "gentile" and that one and only Gospel was preached to Abraham.

Could you explain this, please - "Abraham was not a "gentile"'?

So what WAS that OT Gospel?

Peter says it was - "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1 Peter 1:10-12

No arguments at this point, but one thing I think is foundationally important about the Gospel that many with their knowledge tend to skip over, but our Text, when read as a whole, does not: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God - YHWH's Christ/Anointed / resurrected Eternal King who rules Heaven and the earth.

When we get back to the OT Gospel, we at minimum track the Seed from Genesis 3, through Abraham, and down through history as more revelation was given & connected about the Jewish Messiah / Eternal King.

It's ultimately the fact that Jesus is the Christ who would suffer and be glorified, and it's this fact that Jesus is the resurrected Christ/Eternal Davidic King that is the foundation of Paul's Gospel that he taught the Corinthians before he wrote about the vital importance of resurrection in 1Cor15:1-4 to deal with some disagreement about resurrection.

 

[HIM]

I think it matters a great deal.

Going back to the train of thought that starts about here,

the issue is what laws does God write on our heart?

See also

So the definition of the law of God is important.

Not so. It is a just a question to distract from the truth. That is all. The New Covenant which is the good news in Christ Jesus is that we through God's Spirit do not have to live a life of death which is separation from Him. We now have His way, His Laws through love as part of us. As He is so are we in this world.

 

[DaveM]

True Israel, on the other hand, their destiny will be to inherit that promised land in Genesis 17, on Earth. (Matthew 5:5)

whom it seems the children of faith the true children of Abraham inherit ALL the promises made to Abraham. Notice promises plural not singular.

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.