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how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    The word angel plainly means messenger. Like I posted God’s Word not me declares Satan is Masquerading as an angle but he all darkness.

    The context of Luke 10 shows clearly that Satan's fall from heaven as lightning did not occur during some distance eon of the past; but it was at the very time when He saw by the Spirit the 70 casting out demons in His name. Satan lost his hold, he lost his footing, he lost his power, he lost his kingdom in those people's lives -- and he fell from heaven as quickly as a flash of lightning. That is how quick any spiritual battle is won in the name of Jesus Christ. If they are not won with such speed, then we have to wonder if they are truly being fought in the name of Jesus.

    Revelation 12, of course, speaks not of the past, but just the opposite. The whole course of the book is set to what would transpire AFTER John received the Revelation. None of these passages refer to a pre-adamic war between God and Satan, as well as many others, that it should no longer be necessary to expound upon the obvious. My point has been Satan cannot have two beginnings; WHEN God created Satan God created a waster a destroyer not an angel.
     
  2. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Amen.. Satan is a spirit Lucifer was a man. Two points Satan cannot not be both a man and a spirit and he cannot have two different beginnings.
     
  3. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Satan was a "liar from the beginning". I might assume that meant from the day of his creation. But the bible does not speak of the devil being created at any point in time. The serpent just appeared out of the blue in Genesis.

    So what do you do with that?
     
  4. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    The word beginning means beginning of the source
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Don't kid yourself. So-called orthodox groups often do the same thing.

    Including you.
    Also anyone can erroneously dismiss absolutely any absolutely true statements or verse of Scripture by appealing to the vague "out-of-context" excuse ploy. As you have done. It's simply not being open & honest spiritually with oneself, God, or the Scripture quoted. You can make Scripture say anything by rejecting true statements of Scripture using your "out-of-context" excuse ploy. Thereby you excuse yourself from believing the truth of a verse & instead believe what your imagination tells your brain about the context. Anyone can play "make-believe" with "context" as their excuse. And make Scripture say anything they want using such a method, e.g. your method with the verses i quoted.

    Let us consider, he says, what it says 30 verses after the immediate context and 2 chapters after it. Which still leaves us with what i posted not being refuted:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Lamentations 3:31-33, KJV clearly contradicts Mt.25:46, KJV.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What makes you think this opposes universalism?
     
  7. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    If I can butt in for a sec, I was reading the discourse and came to the part about "many are called yet few are chosen"....
    This really points out what Clem said about using scripture to prove or disprove a point. Well this verse actually proves and disproves both views.

    The one who sees Universalism or Ultimate reconciliation reads it like "many (of Gods children) are called (for a higher purpose) but few are chosen (meet the requirements)"

    The Torturist reads it like "many people (the whole world) are called (to recieve salvation) but few are chosen (and are tortured for all of eternity)".

    So we see when your original premise is a God of wrath and torture who demands blood if we do something He doesn't like then all scripture points to that.
    Those who know God as a Father who loves and corrects His people and refuses to lose even one will see that character in all scripture.
    So we can quote scripture to each other all day long but the other person is never going to see it your way. It's the exact same thing as Liberals and Conservatives debating their philosophy....practically no one will switch sides because their paradigm is their little safe place where they feel in control.
    And of course, most everyone is like this. Nothing earth shattering about it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  8. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    ΅Well, you are partly correct, however, Satan did not fall from heaven, the verse is referring to the fall of the political powers, not of a literal Satan, but as the fiend, enemy, or foe. You are correct when you say Revelations speaks of things in the future and not in the past. But you missed it when you said Satan was a waster. The destroyer, that verse is speaking of is an Angel, who was performing what God had instructed him to do, such as when God had the destroyer kill all the firstborn in Egypt; and when the destroyer, acting under the command of God, destroyed Sodom and assisted Lot. The destroyer also inflicted a plague upon those who were opposing the plans of God.
    Need I supply the verses I am quoting?
     
  9. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    It is not the same as Liberals and Conservatives debating because God is involved. It God calls you draws you or drags you you have no choice. God is not calling the whole world now because it is not His plan and has many ages to do this. Meanwhile He is calling 30,60 and 100 fold each in His own order file or rank

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

    If God does not call you, you cannot come.


    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)
     
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  10. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Please do. Show me who this destroyer, waster is if it is not Satan???

    Satan was never an angel always a liar, he is lying to those who want to believe this.

    II Cor. 11:14. It says Satan is able to transform himself into an angel of light, but according to the Greek, the word is not transform -- it is MASQUERADE (Strong's). This is as close as he has ever been to being light -- as a masquerading actor.


    Satan is masquerading as an angel of light.


    So, prove Satan was an angle. The word angel simply means messenger and I will agree on that
     
  11. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Deuteronomy 4:3; Genesis 13:10; Genesis 19:29;1 Corinthians 10:10; 1 Chronicles 21:12-15; Exodus 12:23 God is the one who directs and commands everything, including the destruction of fiends and enemies and those who practice idolitry.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  12. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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  13. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    it is not waster to destroy it is destroyer to destroy. שחח HIPHIL (1) PIEL No. 1= destroy 2 Samuel 24:16 "the Angel of the Lord Jehovah"; Genesis 19:14; Exodus 12:23
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Total nonsense. You evidently do not comprehend what context is or how it affects understanding. Once again I demonstrate. The Bible says "There is no god." twice Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1. I quoted those verses exactly so don't go saying anything about context.
    Nonsense as usual. That is called the wider context your 3 verses cannot contradict the verses I quoted and vice versa.
    If the writer of Lam truly believes that the Lord's love and mercy never ceases and never ends, i.e. universalism, how can he pray that the Lord persecute and destroy his enemies from under heaven? How can he later say "you have utterly rejected us?

    LXX Lamentations 3:62-66
    (62) The lips of those that rose up against me, and their device against me all the day.
    (63) Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their musick.
    (64) Render unto them a recompence, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
    (65) Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them.
    (66) Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the LORD.
    Lamentations 5:22
    (22) But thou hast utterly rejected us; Thou art very wroth against us.
    Where is the Lord's never ending, never ceasing love and mercy in vs. 22

    Wrong again there is no contradiction if you do not have universalist assumptions/presuppositions.
     
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    If I can butt in for a sec, I was reading the discourse and came to the part about "many are called yet few are chosen"....
    This really points out what Clem said about using scripture to prove or disprove a point. Well this verse actually proves and disproves both views.
    The one who sees Universalism or Ultimate reconciliation reads it like "many (of Gods children) are called (for a higher purpose) but few are chosen (meet the requirements)"
    The Torturist reads it like "many people (the whole world) are called (to recieve salvation) but few are chosen (and are tortured for all of eternity)".
    So we see when your original premise is a God of wrath and torture who demands blood if we do something He doesn't like then all scripture points to that.
    Those who know God as a Father who loves and corrects His people and refuses to lose even one will see that character in all scripture.
    So we can quote scripture to each other all day long but the other person is never going to see it your way. It's the exact same thing as Liberals and Conservatives debating their philosophy....practically no one will switch sides because their paradigm is their little safe place where they feel in control.
    And of course, most everyone is like this. Nothing earth shattering about it
    .
    You only add fuel to the flames by using a pejorative epithet "torturist". There is a difference between torture which is unmerited and deserved punishment for an offense.
    I partially agree with you. I have been at this forum since 2000 I learned early on that hard core believers in the various heterodox teachings are almost impossible to reach. My purpose is to try to reach those on the fence considering leaving or joining such groups. I do so by teaching the truth as revealed to me by the HS and exposing the false teachings.
     
  16. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Do not see your point?
     
  17. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    It is the Angel of the Lord not any spirit of a satan.
     
  18. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    No! Satan is not a demon spirit, Is. 54:16 says God created His Angel to destroy as the destroyer to help Him get rid of evil. Exodus 12:23
     
  19. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    The word angel means messenger. Evil is part of God's plan or he would of never planted the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL.

    Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the
    LORD do all these things.

    Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?
    shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)

    1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
    16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
    23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
    (KJV)


    1 Sam 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the (KJV)

    Calamity evil same thing.
     
  20. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    1Samuel 16:15 (YLT) says a spirit of sadness from God came upon him.. 1Samuel 18:10 (YLT) says spirit of sadness.. NKJV says distressing spirit from God.1 Ch 13:10 says it was a soothsayer, that is a ventrilloquist; 1 Samuel 28:7 says Saul inquired of a woman with a familar spirit at Endor ( to devine, utter spells, a soothsayer)
     
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