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Featured how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    So who controlled the distressing spirit? Or soothsayer? There will always be a translation that frosted over the truth some are awesome some are bias. So who controls evil some evil spirit more powerful than God because God is helpless when it comes to evil?
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That example does not demonstrate that what i said was "Total nonsense". Did you not understand what i posted? As i said:

    Also anyone can erroneously dismiss absolutely any absolutely true statements or verse of Scripture by appealing to the vague "out-of-context" excuse ploy. As you have done. It's simply not being open & honest spiritually with oneself, God, or the Scripture quoted. You can make Scripture say anything by rejecting true statements of Scripture using your "out-of-context" excuse ploy. Thereby you excuse yourself from believing the truth of a verse & instead believe what your imagination tells your brain about the context. Anyone can play "make-believe" with "context" as their excuse. And make Scripture say anything they want using such a method, e.g. your method with the verses i quoted.

    How does such a prayer contradict those statements? You don't believe the Lord's mercy never ceases? You don't believe His love never ends? You believe His mercy & love are finite? Please tell me what day you think they will end? Or do you believe they have ended already?

    Destroying enemies "under heaven" means their death on earth in their mortal life. It doesn't address what happens after death. But Lam.3:31-33, KJV, "The Lord will NOT cast off FOREVER" does address that & contradict endless torments and endless annihilation.


    The words "utterly rejected" are a translation of the Hebrew word "ma'ac" meaning "abhor", so it doesn't convey the thought of finality or endlessness. Therefore it's harmonious with Lam.3:31-33 which contradicts endless annihilation and torments. See:

    Strong's Hebrew: 3988. מָאַס (ma'ac) -- abhor
    Strongs's #3988: ma'ac - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools


    Other versions read significantly differently than the flawed KJV:
    Unless You have utterly rejected us And are exceedingly angry with us. (NASB)
    For hast Thou utterly rejected us? Thou hast been wroth against us -- exceedingly? (YLT)

    It seems you also forgot to check your favorite version:

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    Thou canst not have utterly rejected us, And be exceeding wroth against us!

    Which also says & agrees with:

    31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER.
    32For though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion
    According to the multitude of His mercies.
    33For He doth not afflict willingly,
    Nor grieve the CHILDREN OF MEN.

    Which contradicts the false doctrines of endless annihilation & torments.
     
  3. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Right God controls everything and uses His Holy Angels to intercede when necessay.Exodus 12:23
     
  4. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    Simple question... Do you believe in salvation? If so, what do you think you are being saved from?
     
  5. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    God controls everything.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. Sin, "hell", death, etc. (see the Bible for further info).

    "What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me.
    Speaking of love..."

    George MacDonald Saved My Life - George MacDonald Quotes - User Rated Quotes


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    my threads:

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

    Is there salvation after death?

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
     
  7. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    I love this you believe JESUS blood is so weak and powerless it can only save a few. We believe the blood of Jesus is greater than the sin of Adam. And you ask us if we believe in salvation? God is not calling the whole world now. If God does not call you you cannot come.
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Like cancer growing, "my threads" (previous post 657).

    All the anti-Gospel/ and false Gospel messages on this forum in every thread where they are are beyond total nonsense,(and deadly/ pernicious/ soul destroying)
    and cannot be stopped nor silenced nor prevented on this site.
    All we can do is watch and expose them every time they come up,
    as we are able. (there are far too many to deal with them all).
     
  9. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    KJV people... KJV.... Great fundamental baptist sermon from Dr. Tom Williams https://fundamentalbaptistsermons.net/DiminishingTheWordofGod.mp3 The minute we begin to fall prey to translations that explain away hell we open the door for no need for salvation, no need for Jesus Christ, the crucifixion, the resurrection, or God in general. God isn't Santa Claus and hell isn't a tree with no presents. The gospel shouldn't be used simply as a means to get children or adults to do good works. Works will not get anyone into the kingdom of heaven, or save them from hell for that matter.
     
  10. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    I absolutely believe that the blood of Jesus is capable of saving everyone. I also believe scripture.
    Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Romans 10:8-15 King James Version (KJV)
    8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
     
  11. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Its not just translations that make hell a lie its also knowing the Bible beyond the letter that killeth. Spiritual blindness of people who limit God be it a translation or a religious bias restricts the truth to some man made control and restricts spiritual hearing. Your faith is in the KJ Bible mine is in the Spirit of truth to open its truths to me. Nowhere does it say the KJ Bible will lead and guide you into all truth.

    Here is a good example and there are plenty. In Matthew 25 you all believe a goat is the loss. How can that be a goat is a clean animal by the Law of Moses. Jesus knew this do you?
     
  12. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    The straight gate is the Spirit of truth leading and guiding us into all truth. The broad way are the 20,000 Christian religions who follow creeds, dogmas and are not open to the Spirit to teach them.

    John 6:44 No one comes to the father unless the Father draws/drags/forces Him. If God does not call you it is impossible for a non-spiritual man to come because he is carnal and dead in trustpasses and sins.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it
    2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

    Actually both are right.

    Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

    Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

    Young's Literal Translation
    how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!


    Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.


    "Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
    “Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter
    (eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

    "How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

    "In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

    "Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

    Hell is Payback


    *********************************************


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  14. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
    Luke 11:9-10
    And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
    For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


    Stick to the scripture.
     
  15. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    I did stick to scriptures which you ignored. Who are these verses addressing? God's people or the loss who are dead in trustpasses an sin? The carnal minded man who could careless about God's Word?

    1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

    This is a two way debate I am addressing you verses and you are ignoring mine.
     
  16. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    What about the Baby goat I mentioned in my post? Or is the law of Moses not in the KJ Bible?
     
  17. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    Luke 16:19-31 KJV
    19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

    20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

    21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

    28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

    29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

    30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

    31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
     
  18. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    It this how you debate? IGNORE the truth when you have all the wrong answers and than go on to another topic?
     
  19. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16

    Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.

    The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."

    Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.

    The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.

    Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.

    The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.

    But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).

    Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Assumption!
    Here is the definition of the word translated rejected from Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew Lexicon

    H3988. ma'ac I. [מָאַס] verb reject (Late Hebrew id.; Aramaic מְאַס reject, despise; BaES 15 compare (dubious) Arabic lightly esteem (Kam.); Assyrian ma°âsu is perhaps destroy MeissnSuppl. 55); —
    Qal Perfect3masculine singular מָאַס Isa_8:6 Isa_8:4t; suffix מְאָסָם Psa_53:6; Psa_53:2masculine singular מָאַסְתָּ Jer_14:19 Jer_14:3t.; מָאַסְתָּה Jdg_9:38; 1Sa_15:26 1Sa_15:22t. Perfect; Imperfect יִמְאַס Job_8:20 Job_8:3t; יִמְאָ֑ס Psa_36:5; Job_36:5; suffix וַיִּמְאָֽסְךָ 1Sa_15:23, 1Sa_15:26; for וְאֶמְאָֽסְאךָ Hos_4:6 (so Baer, compare DeComplut. Var. 18 f.; not ׳וָא van d. H) read וְאֶמְאסְךָ; 3 masculine plural יִמְאֲסוּ Jer_6:19 Jer_6:2t.; יִמְאָס֑וּן Isa_31:7; 12t. Imperfect; Infinitive absolute מָאוֺס Isa_7:15-16, מָאֹס Jer_14:19; Lam_5:22; cstr. מָֽאָסְכֶם Isa_30:12; מָאֳסָם Amo_2:4; Participle מוֺאֵס Pro_15:32; מֹאֵס Isa_33:15, feminine מֹאֶסֶת Eze_21:15 (text dubious, Co מוֺאֲסֵי; Berthol וּמְאַסֵּף), Eze_21:18 (also dubious, Co מִטֻּמְאָתָס; Berthol מְאַסֵּף); —
    1 reject, refuse,
    a. with accusative: God rejects men Hos_4:6; Hos_9:17; 1Sa_15:23, 1Sa_15:26; 1Sa_16:1, 1Sa_16:7; 2Ki_23:27; Jer_7:29; Jer_14:19 (twice in verse); Jer_33:24, Jer_33:26; Lev_26:44 (H), Psa_53:6; Job_8:20; Job_10:3; Lam_5:22 (twice in verse); וַתִּמְאָס זָנַחְתָּ Psa_89:39; men reject God Num_11:20 (J), 1Sa_8:7; 1Sa_10:19; men 1Sa_8:7; Job_30:1; idols Isa_31:7, evil Psa_36:5, knowledge Hos_4:6, divine תורה Amo_2:4; Isa_5:24; דבר 1Sa_15:23, 1Sa_15:26, חקות Exo_20:24, חקים2Ki_17:15; מוסר Job_5:17; Pro_3:11; variant reading things Isa_8:6; Eze_21:15; Psa_118:22; Job_31:13.
    b. with בְ God rejects men 2Ki_17:20; Jer_6:30; Jer_31:37; Psa_78:59; Psa_78:67, that in which man confides Jer_2:37; men reject evil Isa_7:15-16, divine תורה Jer_6:19, דבר Isa_30:12; Jer_8:9 חקות Lev_26:15 (H); משׁפטים Lev_26:43 (H), Eze_5:6; Eze_20:13, Eze_20:16; variant reading things, Num_14:31 (J) Isa_33:15; Jer_4:30; Psa_106:24.
    2 despise, with accusative, God subject חגיכם מאסתי שׂנאתי Amo_5:21 I hate, I despise your feasts; elsewhere men subject מ עוילים ׳גם בי Job_19:18 even young children despise me; ׳אמ חיי Job_9:21 I despise my life, compare נפשׁוֺ מואס Pro_15:32; מ אשׁר העם זה ׳הלא בוֺ Jdg_9:38 is not this the people that thou despisedst? עָרִים׳מ Isa_33:8; object omitted Job_7:16 (< join to preceding Me Siegf Du); Job_34:33; Job_36:5; Job_42:6 (ᵑ6 Siegf אֶשְׁתֹּק; ᵑ9 ᵐ5 Symm Bö אֶמָּאֵס) Eze_21:18 (but see above). —
    Niph`al be rejected: Imperfect תִּמָּאֵם Isa_54:6 (wife); Participle נִמְאָס Jer_6:30 (silver), Psa_15:4 ( = reprobate; opposed to י ׳יִרְאֵי); + feminine נִמְאֶסֶת נִמְאָסָה, 1Sa_15:9 rejected, i.e. worthless (for HCT נָמֵם) according to We Klo Dr Kit Bu HPS (|| נמבזה, read נִבְזָה; compareבזה מסס,
    Niph`al )
    II. [מָאַס] verb Niph`al flow, run (Aramaic id., but rare and dubious; — secondary form of מסס q. v.); — Imperfect3masculine singular וַיִּמָּאֵס Job_7:5 my skin hath hardened and run (i. e. again, afresh; > GHoffm Du read וַיִּמַּס, Bu וַיִּמָּאס, √ מסס); 3 masculine plural יִמָּֽאֲסוּ מַיִם כְּמוֺ Psa_58:8 (figurative of annihilation of wicked).
    [מַאֲפֶה] see אפה.
    מַאְמֵּלְיָה מַאֲפֵל,, see אפל.
    מאץ
    (compare Arabic a kind of white camel, whence LagBN 29 proposes מָאֹץ for the difficult אָמֹץ (אֲמֻצִּים) Zec_6:3, Zec_6:7).
    Step into my parlor said the spider to the fly. I forgot nothing Here is the 225 BC LXX.
    Lam 5:22 For thou hast indeed rejected us; thou hast been very wroth against us.
     
  21. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    God's word is not open for debate. I am simply calling out false doctrine that I've seen on this thread. Hell is real. Jesus died to provide a path for salvation. Christ's death alone does not save us however. Even Satan himself believes that Christ exists and knows he died and rose again. If you are saying that one must fall under conviction by the Holy Spirit and repent of their sins to be forgiven I absolutely agree with you. If you are saying that a person who fails to do this isn't going to hell I absolutely disagree with you. You mentioned the many denominations within the Christian faith as something leading people into hell earlier in the thread. I agree with that statement on a certain level, religion, denominations, and "interpretations" of God's word will cause people to go to hell. The Bible makes that clear. I'm simply calling out false doctrine for what it is by posting God's word which is the responsibility of Christians as explained in the Bible.
     
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