Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all

Presbyterian Continuist

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What the OP is implying that everyone on earth will eventually be saved. This means that Adolf Hitler and his gang of murderous criminals will end up sharing heaven with me. No, thank you very much! Okay. I suggest that if that is the case, the OP can share his heavenly mansion with the gang of ISIS rapists and murderers and their 49 virgins each.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What the OP is implying that everyone on earth will eventually be saved. This means that Adolf Hitler and his gang of murderous criminals will end up sharing heaven with me. No, thank you very much! Okay. I suggest that if that is the case, the OP can share his heavenly mansion with the gang of ISIS rapists and murderers and their 49 virgins each.
IT is reassuring that so many people do recognize that
the op is actively trying to promote a false gospel.
 
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ClementofA

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What the OP is implying

Off topic.

The topic is in the title of this thread.

Why not start your own topic if you want to talk about something else? I'm quite sure i'll be able to refute any objection you have to universalism.

Do you believe Mt.7:13-14 refutes universalism. Try to stay on the topic.

Doing otherwise is poor etiquette & wastes people's time who are interested in the topic of the thread, not your off topic comments.

I see people posting off topic comments often in threads here.

Probably almost every possible objection to universalism has been addressed before by myself or others on this forum. Why not do a search if you're interested in a specific topic, or read some of the free-for-all universalism threads.
 
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ClementofA

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Off topic.

The topic is in the title of this thread.

Why not start your own topic if you want to talk about something else? I'm quite sure i'll be able to refute any objection you have to universalism.

Do you believe Mt.7:13-14 refutes universalism. Try to stay on the topic.

Doing otherwise is poor etiquette & wastes people's time who are interested in the topic of the thread, not your off topic comments.

I see people posting off topic comments often in threads here.

Probably almost every possible objection to universalism has been addressed before by myself or others on this forum. Why not do a search if you're interested in a specific topic, or read some of the free-for-all universalism threads.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Why.... Why not ..... Why...... YHWH'S WORD! >>>
Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds ... - Bible Hub
biblehub.com/ephesians/5-11.htm
and have nothing to do with the unfruitful actions that darkness produces. Instead, expose them for what they are. NET Bible Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. New Heart English Bible Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them.
Ephesians 5:12 · ‎Ephesians 5:10 · ‎Ephesians 5:11 KJV · ‎Ephesians 5:11 ESV

What is the point of promoting a false gospel like universalism?

The destruction of multitudes of souls if possible. NOT good.
 
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ClementofA

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Suit yourself. I won't be responding to off topic subjects.

Do you have nothing to say about Mt.7:13-14?

As i said in another post:

That's not the point of this thread. The point is there are those who claim Mt.7:13-14 refutes universalism. On its own. As a "proof text". Do you care to discuss that?

What i'm sensing from you is that it is not enough. So then you'ld be disagreeing with the many - indeed VERY MANY - who think it is a "proof text" against universalism.

If i had wanted another thread where everyone was posting anything for or against UR, i'd have titled this thread something like "Is Universalism True?"

If you think "reprobate" disproves universalism on its own as a "proof text", why don't you start your own thread titled "universalism proven wrong: reprobate" & find out how wrong you are. Consider that a friendly challenge.
 
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redleghunter

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Do you believe Mt.7:13-14 refutes universalism. Try to stay on the topic.
Yes one of many passages which refute all will enter the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Suit yourself. I won't be responding to off topic subjects.

Do you have nothing to say about Mt.7:13-14?
IF Yahweh granted you understanding of Scripture,
you wouldn't be posting false teachings,
unless you didn't care and had another agenda
you are fulfilling as you oppose Scripture.

There is no possibility your teachings are truth, as they always oppose YHWH'S WORD and His Plan and His Purpose in CHrist Jesus,
and worst of all may lead others to lose their hope to ever see heaven.
 
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ClementofA

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Yes one of many passages which refute all will enter the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

How does that refute universalism?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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redleghunter

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What exactly is Jesus speaking of here? What's the context?

Matthew 7:

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

He is clearly speaking of two ways in which we travel. Either yoked to Him on the narrow difficult path or taking the easy wide road to destruction.

The narrow path leads to life, and the wide road leads to destruction. Jesus is very concrete here. There is no third path.

Since you want to keep your OP to just two verses these two completely refute the notion all are saved no matter what they do. Jesus clearly speaks here of two ways and those who travel the easy way will not have the life those who travel the narrow path.

I will note proper Bible study requires an expository examination of companion passages but your OP says no to that.

Therefore I will leave you with the exegesis of John Gill a Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic scholar and theologian.

Matthew 7:13

Enter ye in at the strait gate
By the "strait gate" is meant Christ himself; who elsewhere calls himself "the door", ( John 10:7-9 ) as he is into the church below, and into all the ordinances and privileges of it; as also to the Father, by whom we have access unto him, and are let into communion with him, and a participation of all the blessings of grace; yea, he is the gate of heaven, through which we have boldness to enter into the holiest of all by faith and hope now; as there will be hereafter an abundant entrance into the kingdom and glory of God, through his blood and righteousness. This is called "strait"; because faith in Christ, a profession of it, and a life and conversation agreeable to it, are attended with many afflictions, temptations, reproaches, and persecutions. "Entering" in at it is by faith, and making a profession of it: hence it follows, that faith is not the gate itself, but the grace, by which men enter in at the right door, and walk on in Christ, as they begin with him.

For wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to
destruction;
so that the one may be easily known from the other. There is no difficulty in finding out, or entering in at, or walking in the way of sin, which leads to eternal ruin. The gate of carnal lusts, and worldly pleasures, stands wide open,

and many there be which go in thereat;
even all men in a state of nature; the way of the ungodly is "broad", smooth, easy, and every way agreeable to the flesh; it takes in a large compass of vices, and has in it abundance of company; but its end is destruction. Our Lord seems to allude to the private and public roads, whose measures are fixed by the Jewish canons; which say F16, that
``a private way was four cubits broad, a way from city to city eight cubits, a public way sixteen cubits, and the way to the cities of refuge thirty two cubits.''


FOOTNOTES:

F16 T. Bab. Bava Bathra, fol. 100. 1, 2. Vid. Maimon. & R. Sampson in Misn. Peah, c. 2. sect. 1. & Maimon in Sabbat. c. 1. sect. 1.

Matthew 7:13 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way
And so, difficult to enter in at; and when entered, the way is unpleasant to the flesh to walk in, being hedged up on each side with afflictions and tribulations; and moreover, is like the "narrow place", or (stenov topov) , "the strait place", as the Septuagint in ( Numbers 22:26 ) render it; in which the angel that met Balaam stood; and in which there was no turning to the right hand or the left; and such is the way to eternal happiness. The great encouragement to walk on in it is, because it is that way which leadeth unto life:
unto eternal life: it certainly leads thither; it never fails of bringing persons to it; believers in Christ, all that walk in Christ the way, though they are said to be "scarcely" saved, by reason of their afflictions and trials, they meet with in their way to the kingdom; yet they are, and shall be certainly saved: they shall be safely brought to glory; which will be an abundant recompense for all the troubles and sorrows that have attended them in their journey.

And few there be that find it;
the way, and so consequently the life it leads to. "The gate is strait"; small and little, and so unobserved: there is but one way to heaven, and the generality of men neglect it. "The way is narrow", and so disagreeable; the company few, and not engaging. Men choose large gates, broad ways, and much company. The flesh loves to walk at liberty, unconfined, and uncontrolled, and with a multitude to do evil: hence, Zion's ways are thin of passengers; a small number, comparatively speaking, walk thereto, and will be saved; a remnant, a little flock, a little city, and few men in it. It is asked in the Talmud F17, ``why is the world to come created with "jod?" (the least of the letters in the "Hebrew alphabet") the answer is, because (Myjewm wbv Myqydu) , "the righteous which are in it are few".''


Some read the words, as the Syriac, Arabic, and Vulgate Latin, with a note of admiration, "how strait is the gate!" &c. and so some copies.


FOOTNOTES:

F17 T. Bab. Menachot, fol. 29. 2.
Matthew 7:14 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
 
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1am3laine

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GOD actually preached that MOST would go to hell.
Because GOD is looking to save the champions not the fearful and weak.

Mark 4:13-20 = only the last verse where they good ground while the majority of the parable was about failing.

matthew 7:13-14 = few that find life.

Romans 9:27/ Isaiah 10:22 = even though you number as the sand of the sea(many) only a remnant(Few) shall be saved.

Life is like the Olympics it was many games so it's many winners but it is few compared to how many that actually played in total. (1 Corinthians 9:24-27)
 
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OzSpen

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The topic is in the title of this thread.

Why not start your own topic if you want to talk about something else?

Do you believe Mt.7:13-14 refutes universalism. Try to stay on the topic.

Doing otherwise is poor etiquette & wastes people's time who are interested in the topic of the thread, not your off topic comments.

Clement,

It is a legitimate exegetical procedure to compare other Scriptures with Matt 7:13-14 to determine if universalism is a biblical doctrine. It is not.

Matt 7:13-14 makes that clear:

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it (NIV).​

The gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction. How many people of humanity go that way? 'Many enter'.

The road that leads to [eternal] life is narrow and the gate is small. How many go that way? 'Only a few'!

This conclusion is supported by verses such as: 'Many are called but few are chosen' (Matt 22:14).

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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That's not the point of this thread. The point is there are those who claim Mt.7:13-14 refutes universalism. On its own. As a "proof text". Do you care to discuss that?

What i'm sensing from you is that it is not enough. So then you'ld be disagreeing with the many - indeed VERY MANY - who think it is a "proof text" against universalism.

If i had wanted another thread where everyone was posting anything for or against UR, i'd have titled this thread something like "Is Universalism True?"

If you think "reprobate" disproves universalism on its own as a "proof text", why don't you start your own thread titled "universalism proven wrong: reprobate" & find out how wrong you are. Consider that a friendly challenge.

Clement,

You have a presupposition that supports universalism as you've demonstrated in this thread. No matter what we say about Matt 7:13-14 that disagrees with universalism, you'll tell us we are wrong.

You use a begging the question logical fallacy. This is also called circular reasoning, assuming the initial point, and assuming the answer. This is the argument where you have assumed the conclusion in one of your premises. You have concluded that Matt 7:13-14 teaches universalism and that's how you conclude. You disguise your presupposition by making the statement of the topic of the OP.

However, no matter how we exegete this part of Jesus' parable, you will not agree with it because your beginning assumption of this Scripture was that it teaches universalism as your theological position on salvation is universalism. So what will be your conclusion? These 2 verses teach universalism!!!

The logical form of your argument re Matt 7:13-14 is:
  • Clement assumes universalism is true (i.e. all people will receive eternal salvation);
  • Therefore, Matt 7:13-14 supports the claim that universalism is true.
This is right on topic as it relates to what you are doing with this statement in trying to get this Scripture to support universalism, when that is your beginning presupposition.

Oz
 
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ClementofA

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Clement,

You have a presupposition that supports universalism as you've demonstrated in this thread. No matter what we say about Matt 7:13-14 that disagrees with universalism, you'll tell us we are wrong.

You use a begging the question logical fallacy. This is also called circular reasoning, assuming the initial point, and assuming the answer. This is the argument where you have assumed the conclusion in one of your premises. You have concluded that Matt 7:13-14 teaches universalism and that's how you conclude. You disguise your presupposition by asking us a question.

However, no matter how we exegete this part of Jesus' parable, you will not agree with it because your beginning assumption of this Scripture was that it teaches universalism. So what will be your conclusion? These 2 verses teach universalism!!!

The logical form of your argument re Matt 7:13-14 is:
  • Clement assumes universalism is true (i.e. all people will receive eternal salvation);
  • Therefore, Matt 7:13-14 supports the claim that universalism is true.
This is right on topic as it relates to what you are doing with this question in trying to get this Scripture to support universalism, when that is your beginning presupposition.

Oz

Sir Oz,

With all due respect, i don't know where you are getting the idea i think Mt.7:13-14 supports or teaches universalism. It does not. And i have never stated that it does.

The issue is that many Damnationists cite it as a "proof text" against universalism. IOW they think it disproves the doctrine of universal salvation.

My position is that they cannot prove that from the context itself. And therefore that these verses are not out of harmony with universalism being Scriptural. IOW they are not a "proof text" against universalism.
 
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