how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Soar Like and Eagle

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Rom. 11-36. Even more enlightening is the translation from Goodspeed which says, "Who has ever known the Lords thoughts or advised Him? or who has advanced anything to Him for which he will have to be repaid?

For FROM HIM EVERYTHING COMES: THROUGH HIM EVERYTHING EXISTS; AND IN HIM EVERYTHING ENDS. GLORY TO HIM FOREVER! AMEN." Rom. 11:34-36.

Or as Moffat's translation bluntly and beautifully words verses 34-36. "Who ever understood the thoughts of the Lord? Who has ever been His counselor? Who has first GIVEN TO HIM and has had to be REPAID? ALL COMES FROM HIM, ALL LIVES BY HIM, and ALL ENDS IN HIM. Glory to Him forever, Amen."

, "Thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, HE CREATED IT NOT IN VAIN; He formed it to be inhabited; I am the Lord and there is none else." Isa. 45:18. We dare not endeavor to explore such vastness, and indeed our ability to even begin does not exist. The knowledge that must impress our minds just now is this: NONE OF THESE THINGS WAS CREATED WITHOUT A DEFINITE PURPOSE. God does not create things for a pastime. God creates all things FOR A PURPOSE. It may be now that we see no connection between many things of His creation, but eventually, when all is complete, they will fit together as the parts of an intricate machine.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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By Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be THRONES or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS; ALL THINGS were created BY HIM and FOR HIM. Col. 1:16.
 
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ClementofA

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Amen It is God's timing not mine. I just cannot debate some who rejects God's Spirit and treats it like just another word in a book. My patience is truly lacking there.

I hear ya, bro. Maybe it's the ones reading & not posting who will benefit the most from your insights?
 
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ClementofA

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this is what the other posted said
"


and you said



But you missed the point the verse says

"16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen"( 1 Timothy 6:16 KJV)

Though God is everlasting and eternal and clearly not only an age. The context is speaking of His honour and power being everlasting. Is Gods power ever to end? or His honour.

Your doctrine dishonours God it seems and takes away His power.



"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Like most here you lack understanding of my doctrine which explains why your comments above are nonsense & a strawman.

Does God's power related to an age or the millennial age eon, or any other finite eon, mean that period lasts forever? Obviously not.


Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?
 
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ClementofA

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Your entire argument fails right here and crashes to the ground

Eternal [aionios] life is Jesus Christ . He is the life and eternal life as scripture says and he is forever and eternal and everlasting in His being. And all believers have eternal life "abiding" in them, as they abide in Jesus Christ for he is eternal life.

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."( 1 John 1:1-3 KJV)

Notice the "eternal [aionios] life" life is Jesus Christ.

"11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal [aionios] life, and this life is in his Son."( 1 John 5:11 KJV)

"20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his
Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal [aionios] life."(1 John 5:20 KJV)


Eternal [aionios] life is actually Jesus Christ himself and if he is in us we are in Him which is eternal [aionios] life.

and so those who wilfully sin and do such things as this

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal [aionios] life abiding in him."( 1 John 3:15 KJV)

These no longer have eternal life (Jesus Christ ) abiding in them. Notice that Jesus Christ (eternal life) is in a person or not. It is not an age as some make it in many instances but actually Jesus Christ himself. This could be the reason why some don't understand this and teach heresy because Jesus Christ ( eternal life ) is not in them . I would say to all to read this and consider,

"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"(2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

2 Corinthians 13:3
"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you."

Context determines the meaning of a word. The same word can have more than one, or even many, meanings in different contexts.

So, to illustrate, if aionion means "eternal" in one context, it can mean a finite age or ages, epoch, era, millennium, lifetime, 3 days, long time, lasting, etc, in other passages.

In order to refute universalism you need to prove the word aionion means "eternal" when speaking of punishment. Arguing that it means "eternal" in regards to life proves nothing.

Universalists mostly agree that aionion sometimes means "eternal" & at others times it doesn't. Call that position A. And the following position B:

Some universalists, however, argue that in Scripture aionion never means eternal & that it always refers to an age, ages or a period of time that is finite. For more on that view see, for example, points 8 & 9 at posts 130 & 131 at:

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Which leads us to the passage you refer to, 1 Jn.1:2, & the interpretation of the aforementioned "position B". It says Christ is life aionion, as 1 Jn.1:2 is to be understood. That doesn't mean that is everything Christ is. Christ is much more than that. After the aions end He will still be life, just as He was during the aions. He is both the life eonian and more than life eonian. He is life during the eons and life after the eons. So to say Christ is eonian life does not prove aionion means eternal. In fact, since the aions end, according to Scripture (Heb.9:26; 1 Cor.10:11), the eonian times (Titus 1:2, etc) must also end, as must eonian punishment (Mt.25:46). But since Christ & the saints will have immortality, incorruption, etc, their life will be endless.

BTW it's impossible for "life eonian" to be endless in the past because the eonian times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25; 2 Tim.1:9). Are you going to argue that Christ had a beginning, too?

Christ Himself connected eonian life with the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons (ages) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev. 22:5). So eonian life there can be understood to be restricted to a finite eon.

"In the Gospels there are instances where the substantive aion and the adjective aionios are juxtaposed or associated in a single image or utterance (most directly in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30). This obvious parallel in the Greek is invisible in almost every English tanslation" (p.540, The New Testament: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is "after" and "beyond" aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:

"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." (Comm. in Io 13.3)

Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders "life aionios" as "the life of God's coming age" (1 Jn.1:2, NTE). Compare:

Weymouth New Testament
the Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and we declare unto you the Life of the Ages which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

Young's Literal Translation
and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us --

And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us. (CLV)

And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age-abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us; (Ro)

(and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and we bear testimony, and we declare to you the life the age-lasting, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us (Diaglott Greek-English interlinear)

...the AIONIAN LIFE...(Diaglott margin)

and announce to you the life of the Age...(The NT: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Indeed the Chayyei [Olam] was manifested, and we have seen it and we give solemn eidus (witness of testimony) and we proclaim to you the Chayyei Olam which was alongside with HaAv [Yochanan 1:1-4,14] and made hisgalus (appearance of, exposure of in revelation) to us [Shlichim]. (OJB)

Speaking of OLAM, we now turn to Dan.12:2-3, which also supports the above position:

The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further." (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?




Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven
 
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LoveofTruth

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Some universalists, however, argue that in Scripture aionion never means eternal & that it always refers to an age, ages or a period of time that is finite. For more on that view see, for example, points 8 & 9 at posts 130 & 131 at:
Obviously this view is rebuked clearly by the fact that Jesus Christ is "eternal [aionios] life".

and I will show some verses if I get the time tomorrow about your other point
 
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ClementofA

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Obviously this view is rebuked clearly by the fact that Jesus Christ is "eternal [aionios] life".

Did you even read the post or the points contrary to your position? You certainly don't address them by that statement, let alone refute them.
 
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LoveofTruth

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BTW it's impossible for "life eonian" to be endless in the past because the eonian times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25; 2 Tim.1:9). Are you going to argue that Christ had a beginning, too?
Jesus Chris is "eternal [aionios] life and he has always been that life form eternity past with no beginning or end. We see clearly that the Son of God existed prior to his coming in the flesh

"3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God;..."(Hebrews 7:3 KJV)

here we see that the Son of God had no beginning of days or end of life.

"13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;"(Colossians 1:13-18 KJV)

and read John 17:5 and John 1:1,14 KJV

Do you believe that The Son of God is God the Son and that he existed as God before he came to the earth?

do you also believe that Jesus Christ the Son of God is the Almighty God?
 
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LoveofTruth

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Did you even read the post or the points contrary to your position? You certainly don't address them by that statement, let alone refute them.
I read it and any who say that eternal life always means ages or a period of time that is finite are twisting the truth to try and fit their false heresy.

Jesus Christ IS eternal life. It doesn't say he is an age life or finite life. No he is the life eternal. as scripture says. And if he is in believers they will have the eternal life in Him.If they are not in him they will eternally be damned and judged and forever and ever in shame and contempt in the bodies they get when resurrected as scripture teaches.

You must know that I see this no eternal hell doctrine and universalism in any form as a horrible heresy and another gospel almost. I will continue to expose it and warn against it

Yes I will see if i have time to deal with some of your other errors.

It is so amazing the errors and confusion that comes with many in this doctrine. And the incredible scripture twisting and striving about words and which Greek person interpreted a word right or wrong etc.
 
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ClementofA

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Jesus Chris is "eternal [aionios] life and he has always been that life form eternity past with no beginning or end. We see clearly that the Son of God existed prior to his coming in the flesh

"3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God;..."(Hebrews 7:3 KJV)

here we see that the Son of God had no beginning of days or end of life.

"13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;"(Colossians 1:13-18 KJV)

and read John 17:5 and John 1:1,14 KJV

Do you believe that The Son of God is God the Son and that he existed as God before he came to the earth?

do you also believe that Jesus Christ the Son of God is the Almighty God?

All of that was irrelevant to my comment you replied to. Did you even understand it, because you didn't address it:

BTW it's impossible for "life eonian" to be endless in the past because the eonian times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25; 2 Tim.1:9). Are you going to argue that Christ had a beginning, too?

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism
7 Myths About Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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I read it and any who say that eternal life always means ages or a period of time that is finite are twisting the truth to try and fit their false heresy.

Jesus Christ IS eternal life. It doesn't say he is an age life or finite life. No he is the life eternal. as scripture says. And if he is in believers they will have the eternal life in Him.

What's the point of repeating your same argument again & not addressing the points i posted against it? That isn't going to convince anyone you have a "LoveofTruth", LoveofTruth.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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LoveofTruth

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So God is not sovereign and carnal man's will supersedes God?
I show you a clear verse correcting your erroneous doctrine and all you say is a repeat of your wrong understanding ?
 
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LoveofTruth

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What's the point of repeating your same argument again & not addressing the points i posted against it? That isn't going to convince anyone you have a "LoveofTruth", LoveofTruth.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
And you quote if Lamentations 3:31 is out of context it refers to men on earth under judgement from God chastening them fir sin breaking their ways so as to hopefully bring them to repentance before it is too late after death read vs 44 39,40
 
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ClementofA

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And you quote if Lamentations 3:31 is out of context it refers to men on earth under judgement from God chastening them fir sin breaking their ways so as to hopefully bring them to repentance before it is too late after death read vs 44 39,40

Nothing in the context can change the absoluteness of this:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.


Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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again you use the words "reverse the sin of Adam.

NoBut scripture says that Christ condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8
Not of matter of condoning its a matter of atoning. Jesus blood is that powerful. God knew Adam would sin and it was part of His plan from before there was a sinner their was a savior for the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.

If God plans all things than why all the condemnation or damnation?

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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ClementofA ~

Where in Scripture is a spirit of man born again, IN HELL?

God Bless,
SBC
Were we ALL not created in the image and likeness of God before the fall? Is not God a spirit? Both Adam and Jesus are sons of God one ordain to fall the other ordain be be the lamb slain before the foundation of earth. All God's plans ever an earth.
 
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Were we ALL not created in the image and likeness of God before the fall? Is not God a spirit? Both Adam and Jesus are sons of God one ordain to fall the other ordain be be the lamb slain before the foundation of earth. All God's plans ever an earth.

Adam (male and female) was created in the likeness and image of God.

Seth, son of Adam and Eve was born in the likeness and image of Adam. Gen 5:1

If we were already in Gods Likeness, we would have no need to BECOME in Christ's Likeness.
But we are IN Adams Likeness, from our birth, NOT with God, thus have to become converted to Become Christ-Like, that BY Gods Power, our restoration is acceptable for God to be WITH us and we WITH Him, and thus accounted as "sons of God".

God Bless,
SBC
 
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