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Featured how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. WrongClub_Lucius

    WrongClub_Lucius New Member

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    How do people believe this and escape reconciling this belief with possible eventualities of life?

    Few people actually think about what they "believe", and Christian parent's don't waste a moment thinking that their children may not really believe. I mean, they are such great parents, so it isn't possible that their kid could go to hell. Maybe someone else's kid, but not theirs. I mean, just look at the number of Christian kids that continue to go to church after their parent's are no longer in the position to make them go...oh wait, never mind...


    We know a couple bits of information that may add up to a completely different reality than what has been propogated through history.

    First, the Apostle Paul says that "we will judge angels". What does this mean? Nobody knows.

    And then, we know that "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord." This happens after Satan is revealed to us.

    Third, we know that this adventure started with eating from "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." Developing this a bit further, as a good pastor would, we know that "knowledge" means "learning by experience....so simple substitution reveals it is "the tree of the [learning by experience] of good and evil."

    What is all this learning about? Is it about gaining the ability to judge? Preposterous, I know...but Paul says that we will judge angels.

    And finally, when Satan is revealed and is there along with Jesus, everyone bows to Jesus and confesses that Jesus is Lord.... Granted the Bible doesn't explicitly say that God asked for a show of hands, or something like that, but it really feels like all of humanity is deciding who is worthy to be called Lord....judging, deciding...


    Anyway, how is Jesus going to condemn for eternity anybody who confesses him to be Lord? I don't know. That doesn't sound right to me.

    The Bible spends more time talking about rewards and crowns for the faithful.

    And the whole "new earth" thing...heaven is described as a city, and nothing that causes suffering can enter into it. It almost sounds like there is a somewhat less heavenly existence surrounding the city?

    And as a matter of fact, Jesus describes hell as "weaping and gnashing of teeth". I haven't studied this, but the whole "burning in Hell for eternity" thing is likely more tradition than fact.

    (Part of this theory is that what is actually going on in this world is quite a bit different than what tradition tells us.)
     
  2. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    It is open for debate and you just got defeated.

    There is the letter that killeth and the Spirit quicken makes alive. All you know is the letter and you are killing God's Word with your doctrines of damning billions.

    At least we agree on something because there is nothing free about being drag.

    You are not calling out false doctrine because you are afraid to address facts I posted from Scripture. Baby goat.

    You condemn billions to hell forever and ever with NO MERCY and ignore facts that proves the real false doctrine is what preach. here is a verse that makes you a flase teacher and a heretic this is God's Word not my opinion


    2 Peter 2:1

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


    I.Damn…. Strong's NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): destroying, utter destruction

    A. of vessels
    II.a perishing, ruin, destruction

    A. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

    KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

    Who is this verse addressing???

    This is your fundamental belief that Jesus is going to damn billions. That’s heresy according to God’s Word which you claim to believe in. They bring damnations , destruction, perish etc.


    Looks like Rome missed this verse when they changed the meaning of God’s Word and inserted words like hell and eternal. I love the word easter. Talk about pagan.

    Is it the Christian Universalist who believes God’s Word is Spirit and life and that ultimately all who will be saved. NO it is the heretic who condemns, damn billions and billions of God’s people who he never called and for that reason have NO… freewill to save themselves.


    Now it’s your turn to show me Christian Universalism is heresy. Please God’s Word opinions are not excepted.





     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    HALLELUYAH!
    PRAISE BE TO YHWH !

    After I read this question, I realized all of a sudden like, more clearly
    than
    ever before - we may , YHWH WILLING, pray for the salvation of the OP every day, and all those who are deceived by the false gospel.

    We have been saved, everyone who is, from the utter wickedness and sin of the world, but not all have been - even if some might have eternal life (or not), they teach heresy that is false gospel intent on preventing people from turning to YHWH in JESUS in FAITH to be saved !

    So we pray, LORD JESUS, YES! SAVIOR MESSIAH and JUDGE,
    set loose all those who have been deceived by satan, heal them TODAY by YOUR WORD, and grant them understanding that they might live FOR YOU, instead of for the lie that has kept them from turning to you. Amen.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for providing that LXX support of my position. That is in perfect harmony with what i've been saying & posting all along:

    31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER.
    32For though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion
    According to the multitude of His mercies.
    33For He doth not afflict willingly,
    Nor grieve the CHILDREN OF MEN.

    Which version contradicts the false doctrines of endless annihilation & torments.

    It seems you also forgot to check your favorite version:

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    Thou canst not have utterly rejected us, And be exceeding wroth against us!

    Lam.3:31-33, KJV, "The Lord will NOT cast off FOREVER" does contradict endless torments and endless annihilation.

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
  5. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    The Universalist are people do not want to enter the fold by means of the door which is Christ, but want to allow for people to enter other ways (as if it is up to their broad minded view). John 10:9-14I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” Jesus himself said “if you enter ANY OTHER WAY you are a thief and a robber” He goes on to say “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.” “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.”

    Jesus does not accept any other way, in fact He makes this exclusive statement of Himself in John 14:6: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” This seems to be quite exclusive at least according to Jesus’ own words, but again we find that most do not want to take his words to mean what he said but fiddle with them to mean something else. We need to understand that Christian Universalists use certain words, but change the concepts and meanings. To know its context is essential to bring one to a correct understanding of doctrine in Scripture. Modernism, post-modernism denies the existence of objective truth and its applicational meaning. It is a direct attack on Christianity as we know it. The universal doctrine is a challenge to the nature of God and what He has revealed to us in the Scripture. Despite the few scriptures used by Universalists, they must reinterpret the clear ones by the unclear and isolated texts, thereby changing the meanings of both.
     
  6. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    To recognize false doctrine I don't need to study and debate it... I just need to know God's true word.
     
  7. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    You are a spiritual coward and cannot address my verses. All the above is true when it comes to scripture but you know nothing what we believe and why we believe it. God has many ages to save all the people he never called. But that is far too deep in spiritual for religious man like you. We are not Modernism, post-modernism Christian universal-ism has been here since the early church not like KJ only baptist who are new comers. I posted my point about a baby goat again and again you refuse to address this scriptural fact because you know it is true and does not line up with your doctrines of damning billions.

    Here is one that does not fit in your worn out wine sin. I would love to use the KJ Bible but it has far too many errors.

    Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'


    Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

    Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

    Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

    Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

    Now if the rest of men may seek the Lord, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing “, “ all the Gentiles , the “remainder of man kind are destroyed as you proclaim in the Lake of Devine Purging (Lake of Fire); then what about this promise.
     
  8. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    how can you recognize anything you cannot even address the baby goat I posted. This is God's true Word that does not fit in your worn out wine skin it already burst. The new wine is better.
     
  9. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    Jeremiah 6:15-16 KJV
    Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
    Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
     
  10. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Wow you can post a verse but a NOT Baby goat in Matthew 25. Please grow up spiritually not religiously.
     
  11. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    OH I get it it was suppose to be a rebuttal for the new wine is better. I see you do not believe in the New Testament so your rebuttal is Old Testament. Wow that is not very spiritual but sure is religious. That is why the goat confuses you?
     
  12. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    I'm familiar with Matthew 25 and I'm also familiar with the argument you are going to try to present that the goats mentioned are "baby" goats and can mature. You are headed down the path of universalism and God correcting baby goats and they grow to mature goats. Although this passage is sometimes called “the parable of the sheep and the goats,” it isn’t really a parable about sheep and goats. It’s not some story about a shepherd and him dealing with his flock where it all is symbolic of what will happen at the final judgment. It’s a didactic, straight-forward description of future events. The sheep and goats reference isn’t part of some metaphor. Jesus was just saying that he’ll separate the two sides, and appealed to a common profession where things are distinguished. It was just an analogy made in passing. Secondly, even if the mention of sheep and goats did have some key metaphorical meaning, it wouldn’t be fitting. Indeed, the goats are specifically referred to as baby goats, but does this mean that they will grow up spiritually and end up like the sheep? Absolutely not. Why not? Because no matter how much a goat grows it will never be a sheep. I’m sorry if that sounds pedantic, but if there is a key metaphor then it matters what the parts are. If God wanted to make the point that the kid goats just need to grow up, as it were, then why didn’t he say that the two groups were lambs and sheep, or kids and goats? They aren’t just separated by development and age; they are two different kinds of animals. Their difference would be fundamental and permanent. A goat will never become a sheep.
     
  13. WrongClub_Lucius

    WrongClub_Lucius New Member

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    I don't consider myself to be a universalist, but I have grown to question the opposing theory. I was raised Lutheran, and they have no problem saying everyone in the world is sinful and going to hell...but there are passages where God speaks for himself, demonstrating that his view may be a little bit different than we are taught to think.

    Consider the story of Abaham and Sarah. They traveled to Egypt, and Abram said Sarah is his sister. Abimelech takes Sarah to be his wife....

    Abimalech has a dream in which God talks to him. Abimelech defends himself, saying that he did nothing wrong, because he did not know that Sarah was married to Abraham.

    Then God says, "I know you did this in the integrity of your heart."

    Have you noticed this before? God is agreeing with a pagan king's sense of justice; God is saying this idol worshiping unholy man has integrity! God may even be respecting this man!

    Essentially God says, "I know you didn't knowingly do anything wrong, so I prevented the marriage from happening. But now that you know, make it right and send her back to Abraham, or else!

    I think it is quite clear from this passage that God holds all people accountable for what they know.

    Sometimes people argue that everyone on earth has heard the gospel, and they might say that if the individuals themselves have not heard, at some point their ancesters did...and therefore there ancestors are guilty for not believing it and passing it on...and therefore the condemnation is just.

    Whatever the theory, I find it inconsistent. It seems far better to acknowledge that God holds us accountable for what we know; Paul says, "To him who believes it to be sin, to him it is sin." It's the same thing. God acknowledges our limited knowledge, and God asks us to act justly with the knowledge we have. A man who's life is characterized by justice, but who has never heard of Christ, should not be portrayed as an enemy of God!
     
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  14. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    "We are not Modernism, post-modernism Christian universal-ism has been here since the early church not like KJ only baptist who are new comers."

    So let me get this straight.... baptists are newcomers?? I guess they took the part about John the Baptist out of your Bible when they were editing out the need for repentance and the existence of hell.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mt.7:21-23...Jesus says to the wicked "depart from Me".

    Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that
    has no end, as you deserve"

    Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.

    "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless punishment it's next to nothing.

    The word "forever" is no part of Mt.7:21.

    Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.

    Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    Matthew 7:23 refers to what happens on a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

    Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.


    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
     
  16. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    John the Baptist was a Jew not a KJ only baptist.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  17. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for addressing the baby goat. I agree with everything you say here and yes it is a spiritual metaphor which baby goat believers do not see because they are looking so hard at condemnation God's people who God has never called and not God's grace.
    A unclean animal would be a pig, BUT our Lord was not talking about the separating the loss from His sheep. He was separating the immature spiritual goat believers who will eat any religious garbage from His sheep who know His voice who are very pickie what they eat.

    Just like the chaff separated from the wheat. If you know anything about farming you would know the wheat and the chaff are the same plant until harvest so it its the hidden (spiritual) wheat under the chaff (Outer flesh) that will be burn. God has no need for physical fire for His fire is spiritual not physical.

    1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
    NT:5178 a tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of


    Matthew 13 :13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;




    Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
     
  18. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    opps
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  19. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Had some computer problems
     
  20. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    double posting
     
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