How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

[Mark Quayle]

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

If verse 1 doesn't involve location, what does it involve then? Obviously, if an angel is seen coming down from heaven, this indicates this angel was initially in heaven, leaves heaven, then travels to a new location. Where is the logical location this angel would likely be coming to? The earth of course. This tells us that is because that is where the angel finds satan residing at the time.

What else does this tell us?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Obviously it tells us the initial fulfillment of Revelation 20:1 is meaning a time post the war in heaven, and also post a time satan being cast to the earth at the time. But if not that, thus satan still had access to heaven as of Revelation 20:1, why did the angel need to come down from heaven to bind satan if satan sill had access to heaven in some manner or another?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

As soon as satan realizes he hath been cast to the earth, verse 13 is what he initially sets out to accomplish. Then when he ultimately fails at that, verse 17 is then his plan from that point on.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where does his initial binding fit in with any of this? Nothing in Revelation 12:12-17 depicts a satan that is bound. All of it is depicting a satan that is loose. Therefore, the only logical place the binding of satan can possibly fit, is after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:12-17.

Obviously Revelation 12:17----and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---this involves the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. This tells us satan is initially bound after the 42 month reign of the beast has run it's course. This clearly places the initial binding of satan at the end of this age, and not several thousand years ago instead. And if satan's initial binding has to occur in the end of this age, or better yet, once this age has ended, then so must the same be true of the thousand years of reigning with Christ.

As to the title of the thread then, taking into account what I just submitted, how can satan logically already be bound without contradicting anything in Revelation 12?

BTW, the way it looks to me, it doesn't matter where one places when satan is initially cast to the earth. Some place it 2000 years ago. Some place it in our future still. It still doesn't take away from the fact, that when satan is initially cast to the earth, he is not being depicted as being bound in a pit, he is being depicted as being on the loose. Plus like I also pointed out, all of Revelation 12:12-17 has to be fulfilled first, before satan can even get bound. Nothing in Revelation 12 involves satan's binding. Verse 17 has to conclude with the end of this age being the result eventually.

To answer the question of the title of your post, God does not deal with time how we do. He is not bound by it, nor does he even see it how we do.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Even though I'm Premil and have been Premil for decades, there are still things about Premil that strike me as nonsensical. But I can say the same thing about Amil as well, there are things about that view that strike me as nonsensical.

Understanding things in the Scripture takes a lot of time and a lot of digging.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So Revelation 14:20 is a "from course of thousands and six hundreds". What does that mean? I don't know. I looked to see if the number "a thousand six hundred" is used elsewhere in the Scripture and no it's not. So if there is any significance to that particular number, I don't know what it is.

This is talking about the Judgment of God upon HIS UNFAITHFUL CONGREGATION making up of false christs, false prophets and ALL people deceived by them.

The number 40 in Scripture signifies punishment, so 40 squared (40 x 40) symbolizes, then, the fullness of God's wrath. Not just 40, but 40 times 40 = 1600. It is talking of God's full wrath upon unfaithful and rebellion "Christians" of HIS congregation! Please do not confuse revelation 14 with the unsaved world outside the phsycai city of Jerusalem as most taught. Rather it is a spiritual judgment upon His unfaithful congregation where she has become Babylon the Great. This must take place before Second Coming! But why are they judged OUTSIDE or WITHOUT the city/temple?

For example:

Revelation 11:2

• "But the court which is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Why not measure the court since it is indeed part of the dwelling place of God? Because though it was corporately part of the building, it is without (outside) the tue representative Holy Temple. This is talking about the professed Christians in the Church. Thus they are given by God to the Gentiles (unbelievers like the false christs and false prophets) as a judgment for their unfaithfulness who will trample the city under their feet as swine, at least for short-season before Second Coming. The vine of the earth is congregation of God all over the world.

Revelation 14:19-20

• "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
• And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Without (outside) the true city, that is where they are being judged of God.

Revelation 22:14-15

• "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
• For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Without (outside) the true city, that's where the dogs, adulterers, liars, etc. can be found. As I say, which professed Christians step up to the plate and forsakes vanity and pride to Receive the truth of God's word? Those who defer studying God's word carefully.

Oh, and the horses in Scripture represents strength which often used in war. The bridle controls the mouth of the horses. In this spiritual picture, the enemies' false doctrines and gospels that come out of their mouth is their strength that deceives people. In fact, God sees the enemies as the horsemen that you read about elsewhere in Scripture.

So the corporate part of the city will be total and full destuction upon all unfaithful who pretend to be Christians.

Rev 11:13-14
(13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
(14) The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Remember I explain that the number 7 signifies totality? Remember that I explained the number 10 and its multiplies (100, 1,000) signify fullness? So the judgment of this harlot (corporate or unfaithful church) will suffer total destruction spiritually with totality and full (all) of professed Christians being spiritually slain because they believe the lies coming out of the MOUTHS of the false prophets and christs.

Consider wisely:

Rev 9:3-6
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Do you see this? The smoke locusts represent false prophets and christs with the spirit of antichrist like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Joseph Prince, etc. with power like scorpions to deceive people who have not yet sealed (salvation) by God. The phrase "in those days" simply speaks of days in which the wicked are prevailing in the church where false prophets and christs rule. It is the day of great tribulation for True Elect because no one wants to hear the Truth anymore. And these days (of the wicked) shall be shortened. Or else no flesh would be saved. And I believe that the language of, "men seeking death, and can't find it, and desire to die, and death shall flee from them," is symbolism for salvation not being available to them (Revelation 14:3) because they are being deceived by false prophets and christs that God used them as a judgment upon them! Sadly, they may seek to die in the Lord, but they have waited too long and that time has passed.

The remnant are the True Elects who "see" the abominations are afraid because they see it as a judgment of God that they are commanded to come out of the church to avoid her plagues. What plagues? The very false prophets and christs that God used Satan to sent as "frogs", "lices", "Locusts", as an example from Old Testament Egypt where they have turned the water of Gospel into the blood of false doctrines! God is showing us a PICTURE, an EXAMPLE, to show that His New Testament Congregation that was supposed to represent God, for most part, has turned away from God and have gone to Satan's army of false prophets and christs (for propersity, feel good gospels, woman in position, supporting homosexuality in name of "love", etc. etc. ) where she has BECOME spiritually like Egypt and Sodom!

That is WHY the woman (church) was riding upon the beast to sell satanic's doctrines on beast's behalf, until God allowed the beast to eat her, make her spiritually naked, and burn her with fire as a judgment!

Rev 17:15-18
(15) And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

I pray that you will start to see the truth about the church today. She is that woman, Babylon the Great, who is a mystery to those who refuse to believe that God would dare to judge His City. Remember what Lot's sons in Law told him when warned about God's judgment upon Sodom. That is why God sees His congregation spiritually like Sodom! Deja Vu! That is why there are many many Christians who are deceived to THINK that the end-time prophecies does not apply to their church but nation Israel, will not be aware of the judgment of God upon them!

 

[DavidPT]

God does not deal with time how we do.

I don't know if I entirely agree. For example, the first coming. If God does not sometimes deal with time how we do, how did the first coming happen right on time, as prophesied earlier in Daniel 9? I agree God is outside of time, yet He is also involved in the affairs of men in realtime, or at least you would think so.

 

[Kaon]

A Prince in the Greek means the first in rank or power ie: a Leader.

Indeed. There are principalities, powers, archons and angel classifications - not equal in power and influence. Those classifications have categories of leadership within them.

The one people think of when they hear satan has not been kicked down to earthrealm yet, but it has been kicked out of its original glory. Even still, it has power (because of its classification as an archon) over many angels, powers and even principalities.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Oh, one thing someone pointed out to me once in the book of Revelation is that those in the "millennial reign" are being martyred during that 1000 years. Revelation 20:3-5.

Now if that's a "future event" after the "rapture" - how does that happen?

Other thing someone pointed out too. They are "souls". These people in heaven during the millennial reign do not have resurrected bodies.
Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4

 

[Kaon]

It's not entirely clear to me what your position then is? Is your position that satan is bound a thousand years in this age, or bound a thousand years in the next age?

He will be bounded below earthrealm after Resurrection. He has been handicapped for now - but still remains the prince of this realm (because "we" all follow him anyway, and/or we bend to its influence as opposed to the Most High God.)

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't know if I entirely agree. For example, the first coming. If God does not sometimes deal with time how we do, how did the first coming happen right on time, as prophesied earlier in Daniel 9? I agree God is outside of time, yet He is also involved in the affairs of men in realtime, or at least you would think so.

Agreed. He does so as he does. I don't mean to say he does not, but from his point of view it is not the same. He is not bound by our sequences.

For example, I like to tell those who ask me, "If God is omnipotent, why did he not simply create a people to love and adore and praise him (or whatever it is he says they will end up being and doing) instead of walking us through all this millennia of mess?", I say, Maybe he did just that. To us it seems millennia of suffering and sorrow, but to him why would we assume anything other than him speaking it into existence, a finished product? We know the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[DavidPT]

Oh, one thing someone pointed out to me once in the book of Revelation is that those in the "millennial reign" are being martyred during that 1000 years. Revelation 20:3-5.

Now if that's a "future event" after the "rapture" - how does that happen?

Other thing someone pointed out too. They are "souls". These people in heaven during the millennial reign do not have resurrected bodies.
Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4

I don't know who pointed that out to you, but speaking for myself, I tend to find it illogical that anyone is being martyred during the thousand years, the fact that is when satan is locked up in the pit. Yet another reason I have a hard time accepting Amil since this would indicate there is martyrdom taking place during the thousand years. Which then brings us back to the OP and Revelation 12:17, for instance. As in he makes war with the remnant. He would have be unbound in order to do that, and certainly couldn't do it while being depicted as locked up in the pit.

 

[The Righterzpen]

This is talking about the Judgment of God upon HIS UNFAITHFUL CONGREGATION making up of false christs, false prophets and ALL people deceived by them.

The number 40 in Scripture signifies punishment, so 40 squared (40 x 40) symbolizes, then, the fullness of God's wrath. Not just 40, but 40 times 40 = 1600. It is talking of God's full wrath upon unfaithful and rebellion "Christians" of HIS congregation! Please do not confuse revelation 14 with the unsaved world outside the phsycai city of Jerusalem as most taught. Rather it is a spiritual judgment upon His unfaithful congregation where she has become Babylon the Great. This must take place before Second Coming! But why are they judged OUTSIDE or WITHOUT the city/temple?

For example:

Revelation 11:2

• "But the court which is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Why not measure the court since it is indeed part of the dwelling place of God? Because though it was corporately part of the building, it is without (outside) the tue representative Holy Temple. This is talking about the professed Christians in the Church. Thus they are given by God to the Gentiles (unbelievers like the false christs and false prophets) as a judgment for their unfaithfulness who will trample the city under their feet as swine, at least for short-season before Second Coming. The vine of the earth is congregation of God all over the world.

Revelation 14:19-20

• "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
• And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Without (outside) the true city, that is where they are being judged of God.

Revelation 22:14-15

• "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
• For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Without (outside) the true city, that's where the dogs, adulterers, liars, etc. can be found. As I say, which professed Christians step up to the plate and forsakes vanity and pride to Receive the truth of God's word? Those who defer studying God's word carefully.

Oh, and the horses in Scripture represents strength which often used in war. The bridle controls the mouth of the horses. In this spiritual picture, the enemies' false doctrines and gospels that come out of their mouth is their strength that deceives people. In fact, God sees the enemies as the horsemen that you read about elsewhere in Scripture.

So the corporate part of the city will be total and full destuction upon all unfaithful who pretend to be Christians.

Rev 11:13-14
(13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
(14) The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Remember I explain that the number 7 signifies totality? Remember that I explained the number 10 and its multiplies (100, 1,000) signify fullness? So the judgment of this harlot (corporate or unfaithful church) will suffer total destruction spiritually with totality and full (all) of professed Christians being spiritually slain because they believe the lies coming out of the MOUTHS of the false prophets and christs.

Consider wisely:

Rev 9:3-6
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Do you see this? The smoke locusts represent false prophets and christs with the spirit of antichrist like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Joseph Prince, etc. with power like scorpions to deceive people who have not yet sealed (salvation) by God. The phrase "in those days" simply speaks of days in which the wicked are prevailing in the church where false prophets and christs rule. It is the day of great tribulation for True Elect because no one wants to hear the Truth anymore. And these days (of the wicked) shall be shortened. Or else no flesh would be saved. And I believe that the language of, "men seeking death, and can't find it, and desire to die, and death shall flee from them," is symbolism for salvation not being available to them (Revelation 14:3) because they are being deceived by false prophets and christs that God used them as a judgment upon them! Sadly, they may seek to die in the Lord, but they have waited too long and that time has passed.

The remnant are the True Elects who "see" the abominations are afraid because they see it as a judgment of God that they are commanded to come out of the church to avoid her plagues. What plagues? The very false prophets and christs that God used Satan to sent as "frogs", "lices", "Locusts", as an example from Old Testament Egypt where they have turned the water of Gospel into the blood of false doctrines! God is showing us a PICTURE, an EXAMPLE, to show that His New Testament Congregation that was supposed to represent God, for most part, has turned away from God and have gone to Satan's army of false prophets and christs (for propersity, feel good gospels, woman in position, supporting homosexuality in name of "love", etc. etc. ) where she has BECOME spiritually like Egypt and Sodom!

That is WHY the woman (church) was riding upon the beast to sell satanic's doctrines on beast's behalf, until God allowed the beast to eat her, make her spiritually naked, and burn her with fire as a judgment!

Rev 17:15-18
(15) And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

I pray that you will start to see the truth about the church today. She is that woman, Babylon the Great, who is a mystery to those who refuse to believe that God would dare to judge His City. Remember what Lot's sons in Law told him when warned about God's judgment upon Sodom. That is why God sees His congregation spiritually like Sodom! Deja Vu! That is why there are many many Christians who are deceived to THINK that the end-time prophecies does not apply to their church but nation Israel, will not be aware of the judgment of God upon them!

Have you ever heard of Harold Camping? This sounds a lot like what he used to teach. (He's deceased now.)

I agree that as we get closer to the end; the deceiving of the nations definitely impacts the church. There are a lot of false gospels out there and in a certain respect, that has been the case throughout church history.

Think about this though; what is God's purpose in this world? Why does time go on? The command is to go into all the world with the gospel; and why is that? That's for the sake of people becoming redeemed.

So what would be the point of continuing time past the point of salvation still occurring? God is loving and also practical. Would He see any point in sitting through a period of time where no-one is being redeemed and all that's happening is people are suffering? There'd be no point to that.

At the point where the last of the elect have been redeemed, comes on the heals of that - judgement day. Jesus commanded all believers to go into all the world and preach the gospel. He never told us to stop doing that. So why would we continue to carry out a command that "returns unto Him void". That doesn't make any sense.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I don't know who pointed that out to you, but speaking for myself, I tend to find it illogical that anyone is being martyred during the thousand years, the fact that is when satan is locked up in the pit. Yet another reason I have a hard time accepting Amil since this would indicate there is martyrdom taking place during the thousand years. Which then brings us back to the OP and Revelation 12:17, for instance. As in he makes war with the remnant. He would have be unbound in order to do that, and certainly couldn't do it while being depicted as locked up in the pit.

Unless you understand that the millennial reign began at the resurrection - than martyrdom through the millennial reign makes perfect sense; because that is our current experience for the past 2000 years!

I don't see Revelation as a book that unfolds in consecutive order. It seems to me that it is a book that is describing sequences of events in a "time loop". You see "chucks of chapters" that go from "given point" to "judgement day" and than you start over with a different "chuck of chapters" that give you the same series of events in different language. I'm not sure why it's written that way? But that's what it appears to be to me.

 

[ewq1938]

They are "souls". These people in heaven during the millennial reign do not have resurrected bodies.
4

Do you also think Noah and his family had no bodies?

1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

[The Righterzpen]

@DavidPT Yet getting back to the "souls" under the alter during the millennial reign. If the bodily resurrection for the believers has occurred before the millennial reign, than why are they "souls" under the alter?

Again, the end of Ephesians 1 tells us that Christ started His reign at the resurrection.

Then looking at the language of these "souls" under the alter who are "living and reigning with Christ 1000 years"; they are there because they were martyred. The text is very clear about that.

Revelation 20 - these people lived through the era of history where the beast existed. They don't bear his mark. This "mark of the beast" according to dispensationalism is suppose to be something that happens during "the tribulation". Well.... allegedly (I suppose depending on which flavor of dispensationalists you align with) we aren't suppose to be here for the "tribulation".

Now I believe the "great tribulation" was something that happened specifically to Jesus as part of the atonement. And that's based on things found to be historically recorded in the gospels.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9. There's 70 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and Pentecost. That can be figure out by weaving Mathew, Mark and John into the framework of Luke. Luke states in the beginning of his gospel that he's writing this in chronological order to give a record of what happened. And doing this for the sake of people being able to historically search it out.

Now the rest of the gospels are written in chronological order of themselves; but there are events recorded in Matthew that aren't in Mark, or John etc and vic versa. There are some events that are very close to each other in "literary appearance" but they actually aren't the same account. A very careful observer of the Scripture will see that. There was more than one Greek woman who came to Jesus. There was more than one Centurion who came to Jesus. There was more than one woman with "issue of blood" who snuck up on him and touched his clothing. He cleansed the temple more than once. Certain events we can pinpoint. We know Passover only happened once a year. We know Jesus was only baptized once. John was only killed once. LOL

So we can take these "sign post events" and overlay gospels over each other and know that everything that's written in all four gospels happened before "event X". And this is how we can figure some of this stuff out and go back into the OT and compare some of these prophetic passages that give us time spans of weeks and months.

I think it's Daniel 12? There's two sets of "days" given in that chapter.
1290 days = about 3.5 years
2300 days = almost 6 years.

There's 1290 days between the angel appears to John's father in the temple and Herod tying to kill Jesus when he's about two years old.

There's 2300 days between the angle appearing to John's father and Jesus coming back for Egypt.

Both of these events talk about the setting up of the "abomination that make desolate". Herod the Great tore down Ezra's temple and totally rebuilt the Herodian temple starting in about 19 BC. He completed and rededicated it in 9 BC. The very first Passover its rededicated; the angel come to John the Baptist's father. John is conceived in the summer of that year and Jesus was conceived some time in December. John is born about Pass over of the following year and Jesus is born during the feast of Tabernacles 6 months later. Jesus is born in 7 BC and depending on what calendar you use; John is born in either 7 BC or 8 BC.

Herod sets up the "abomination that makes desolate" when he tries to kill Christ. The announcement of the birth of the Messiah to the nation comes with the magi. These were probably 3 separate groups of kings, coming from different directions who converged on Jerusalem at the same time. One came from India direction, another from Africa and probably even a 3rd from Europe.

We know groups of people in these areas knew about each other because of things recorded all the way back in the book of Job. There's a passage in there that talks about "when men (in the north) lived in caves". That's probably a reference to the ice age that came after the flood. So these people being peripherally aware of the Scripture (Solomon and the queen of Sheba) so they come looking for the King.

Herod being "the king who understands dark saying" as described in Daniel; thinks he's going to steal the Kingdom by killing the Messiah. Which if he had been looking to legitimately honor God; he would have announced to the nation that the Messiah was born. But because he attempts to "take away the sacrifice" he "sets up the abomination that make desolate". The worship that had been prescribed for them to follow back in Exodus (which now is extremely corrupted); is an abomination.

Now all this unfolds as part of God's plan; but if you want to know what stuff in the book of Daniel means; start digging through the gospels.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Do you also think Noah and his family had no bodies?

1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

You are correct it is the same word "soul" used in both passages.

Still doesn't explain people being martyred in the "millennial reign". Are they martyred and all the sudden physically raised? I thought the bodily resurrection where believers have received incorruptible bodies has already happened?

And what about the mark of the beast at the end of the millennium? How do you have a mixture of people with glorified bodies and those without living on this earth?

 

[DavidPT]

I don't see Revelation as a book that unfolds in consecutive order.

Yet, there still has to be some sensible chronology involved, otherwise one might conclude something nonsensical, such as, satan is cast into the lake of fire before he is even cast to the earth in Revelation 12. This alone tells us that these things involve some form of sensible chronology. That doesn't mean Revelation has to be written in chronological order from start to finish though. But it would have to mean certain events can't precede certain events if it leads to an illogical conclusion, such as, satan's little season precedes the thousand years, rather than follows it, as another example.

 

[DavidPT]

You are correct it is the same word "soul" used in both passages.

Still doesn't explain people being martyred in the "millennial reign". Are they martyred and all the sudden physically raised? I thought the bodily resurrection where believers have received incorruptible bodies has already happened?

And what about the mark of the beast at the end of the millennium? How do you have a mixture of people with glorified bodies and those without living on this earth?

Do you interpret Revelation 20:4 like such?----and the souls of them lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And speaking of verse 4, how does the following fit with your view?---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

 

[The Righterzpen]

You are correct, he's loosed when the 1000 years has expired. How long is he loose before judgement day? Now that's another question?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Do you interpret Revelation 20:4 like such?----and the souls of them lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And speaking of verse 4, how does the following fit with your view?---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

Well note what the passage says. This happens after the "millennial reign" is over. Right? Isn't the beast suppose to come about at the end of the millennial reign?

How much sense does this really make. You're suppose to have resurrected bodies that can no longer die; and yet people are being martyred?

 

[DavidPT]

@DavidPT Yet getting back to the "souls" under the alter during the millennial reign. If the bodily resurrection for the believers has occurred before the millennial reign, than why are they "souls" under the alter?

Again, the end of Ephesians 1 tells us that Christ started His reign at the resurrection.

Then looking at the language of these "souls" under the alter who are "living and reigning with Christ 1000 years"; they are there because they were martyred. The text is very clear about that.

Revelation 20 - these people lived through the era of history where the beast existed. They don't bear his mark. This "mark of the beast" according to dispensationalism is suppose to be something that happens during "the tribulation". Well.... allegedly (I suppose depending on which flavor of dispensationalists you align with) we aren't suppose to be here for the "tribulation".

Now I believe the "great tribulation" was something that happened specifically to Jesus as part of the atonement. And that's based on things found to be historically recorded in the gospels.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9. There's 70 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and Pentecost. That can be figure out by weaving Mathew, Mark and John into the framework of Luke. Luke states in the beginning of his gospel that he's writing this in chronological order to give a record of what happened. And doing this for the sake of people being able to historically search it out.

Now the rest of the gospels are written in chronological order of themselves; but there are events recorded in Matthew that aren't in Mark, or John etc and vic versa. There are some events that are very close to each other in "literary appearance" but they actually aren't the same account. A very careful observer of the Scripture will see that. There was more than one Greek woman who came to Jesus. There was more than one Centurion who came to Jesus. There was more than one woman with "issue of blood" who snuck up on him and touched his clothing. He cleansed the temple more than once. Certain events we can pinpoint. We know Passover only happened once a year. We know Jesus was only baptized once. John was only killed once. LOL

So we can take these "sign post events" and overlay gospels over each other and know that everything that's written in all four gospels happened before "event X". And this is how we can figure some of this stuff out and go back into the OT and compare some of these prophetic passages that give us time spans of weeks and months.

I think it's Daniel 12? There's two sets of "days" given in that chapter.
1290 days = about 3.5 years
2300 days = almost 6 years.

There's 1290 days between the angel appears to John's father in the temple and Herod tying to kill Jesus when he's about two years old.

There's 2300 days between the angle appearing to John's father and Jesus coming back for Egypt.

Both of these events talk about the setting up of the "abomination that make desolate". Herod the Great tore down Ezra's temple and totally rebuilt the Herodian temple starting in about 19 BC. He completed and rededicated it in 9 BC. The very first Passover its rededicated; the angel come to John the Baptist's father. John is conceived in the summer of that year and Jesus was conceived some time in December. John is born about Pass over of the following year and Jesus is born during the feast of Tabernacles 6 months later. Jesus is born in 7 BC and depending on what calendar you use; John is born in either 7 BC or 8 BC.

Herod sets up the "abomination that makes desolate" when he tries to kill Christ. The announcement of the birth of the Messiah to the nation comes with the magi. These were probably 3 separate groups of kings, coming from different directions who converged on Jerusalem at the same time. One came from India direction, another from Africa and probably even a 3rd from Europe.

We know groups of people in these areas knew about each other because of things recorded all the way back in the book of Job. There's a passage in there that talks about "when men (in the north) lived in caves". That's probably a reference to the ice age that came after the flood. So these people being peripherally aware of the Scripture (Solomon and the queen of Sheba) so they come looking for the King.

Herod being "the king who understands dark saying" as described in Daniel; thinks he's going to steal the Kingdom by killing the Messiah. Which if he had been looking to legitimately honor God; he would have announced to the nation that the Messiah was born. But because he attempts to "take away the sacrifice" he "sets up the abomination that make desolate". The worship that had been prescribed for them to follow back in Exodus (which now is extremely corrupted); is an abomination.

Now all this unfolds as part of God's plan; but if you want to know what stuff in the book of Daniel means; start digging through the gospels.

You made numerous points, too many for me to address. I'll try to address some of it though, just not sure when.

 

[The Righterzpen]

You made numerous points, too many for me to address. I'll try to address some of it though, just not sure when.

Revelation is a tough book to "crack".