How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

[BABerean2]

So - was the FINAL physical resurrection back in Jesus' and John's day, when they spoke (and wrote) this or what are you trying to say?

No.

Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, Paul said Christ would judge both the living and the dead at His return.

Those Jesus spoke to during the first century will be resurrected to see it, along with the men of Nineveh, and the queen of the south.

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[mkgal1]

No.

Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, Paul said Christ would judge both the living and the dead at His return.

Those Jesus spoke to during the first century will be resurrected to see it.

.

Then I'm not following your point you're trying to make. You're welcome to clarify (or not).

 

[BABerean2]

Then I'm not following your point you're trying to make. You're welcome to clarify (or not).

The bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30 will occur on the day of His Second Coming.

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[mkgal1]

For an overall "big-picture" view of the Gospels - and to bring light to Jesus' words - I think this article helps to explain "the loosing of satan":

Quoting linked article: Matthew 23:37. In this text, Jesus says that God has sent numerous prophets to Jerusalem to call them back to obedience, but rather than listen, they continue to stone the prophets that are sent. Jesus says that God has wanted to gather them under His wing for protection, but they were not willing!

As a result, death and destruction will come upon Jerusalem. We must not read into this passage the idea that God is sending the death and destruction. No, the text is clear that God is trying to deliver and protect His people from the destruction, but they would not listen to His warnings and were not willing to come to Him. And so, death would come, not from God, but from the armies that would sweep in and leave not one stone standing upon another.- https://redeeminggod.com/god-sometimes-withdraws-protection

 

[ewq1938]

For an overall "big-picture" view of the Gospels - and to bring light to Jesus' words - I think this article helps to explain "the loosing of satan":

I don't see how that is related to Satan being released from his prison after the thousand years is over.

 

[mkgal1]

The bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30 will occur on the day of His Second Coming.

You'd also linked John 5:27-30 with Matthew 12:41-42. You're still being quite vague and ambiguous with your point.

I'd posted this:

This is from John 5:28 ~
Don't be surprised by this, because the time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.

And you responded with this passage (and no commentary).

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

.....and I was asking you how you get around the phrase "with THIS generation".

 

[mkgal1]

I don't see how that is related to Satan being released from his prison after the thousand years is over.

I see it as just another way of saying "God removed His hand of protection" since God is ALWAYS ultimately in control of satan (but I wasn't specifically referring to the end of the millennium).

 

[BABerean2]

.....and I was asking you how you get around the phrase "with THIS generation".

Sorry. I apparently did not understand your question.

Every person who has ever lived will be resurrected from the dead, and judged by Christ, at His Second Coming.
That includes the generation He was talking to during the first century, and the men of Nineveh, and the queen of the south, and maybe you and I if it happens after we have died.

.

 

[mkgal1]

Sorry. I apparently did not understand your question.

Every person who has ever lived will be resurrected from the dead, and judged by Christ, at His Second Coming.
That includes the generation He was talking to during the first century, and the men of Nineveh, and the queen of the south, and maybe you and I if it happens after we have died.

.

True (I can't argue with that) that there WILL be a physical resurrection of the dead - but I don't believe that's what Jesus and John were referring to (the FINAL and physical resurrection of the dead) in the passages you shared.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm not convinced that Revelation 11:15-18 is referring to a *bodily resurrection*.....nor am I convinced that John 5 is speaking of those in *physical graves* (they could be dead and unaware spiritually). The words of Jesus, "Don't be surprised by this" seem to me to be pointing to something in THEIR lifetime.

This is from John 5:28 ~

Don't be surprised by this, because the time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.​

Let's don't stop there though.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Even if one can somehow spiritualize the former, how does one also spiritualize the latter then?

You do know you are not making any sense to some of us here, right? Notice the tenses---they that have done. It sounds like to me then, when they come forth, they either have already done good, or have already done evil.

And if they have done good during their life, when they come forth, they will be standing among those resurrected unto life. Thus--Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power

And if they have done evil during their life, when they come forth, they will be standing among those resurrected unto damnation. Thus----Revelation 20:15---which is meaning when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years expires.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Obviously, these would have part in the first resurrection. Keeping in mind, it is those having part in the first resurrection that can't be affected by the 2nd death. The first resurrection obviously involves overcomers then. I would think anyone that has done good in their life, this makes them an overcomer.

 

[mkgal1]

Let's don't stop there though.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Even if one can somehow spiritualize the former, how does one also spiritualize the latter then?

You do know you are not making any sense to some of us here, right? Notice the tenses---they that have done. It sounds like to me then, when they come forth, they either have already done good, or have already done evil.

And if they have done good during their life, when they come forth, they will be standing among those resurrected unto life. Thus--Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power

And if they have done evil during their life, when they come forth, they will be standing among those resurrected unto damnation. Thus----Revelation 20:15---which is meaning when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years expires.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Obviously, these would have part in the first resurrection. Keeping in mind, it is those having part in the first resurrection that can't be affected by the 2nd death. The first resurrection obviously involves overcomers then. I would think anyone that has done good in their life, this makes them an overcomer.

Quoting Max King - regarding John 5:28-29

"..it is assumed that the graves are literal graves. This also remains to be proven. Many mock the idea of the word grave being used figuratively as a synonym for death, but such usage is common in the scriptures. The word "grave" was used to picture the national death of Israel while in Babylonian captivity (Ezk. 37). They were referred to as "dead men," (Isa. 26:19) and their restoration to Palestine was spoken of as a resurrection. The graves were opened when Cyrus gave them release from Babylon in order to return home. This captivity was symbolic of the captive state of the New Testament saints during the last days of fleshly Israel. They were oppressed and persecuted until the very end of that second Babylon (I Thess. 2:14-16). The fall of Babylon (Israel) and the resurrection of the saints to their homeland, the new heaven and earth, are the basic theme of God's final revelation to man." (The Spirit of Prophecy, by Max R. King, p. 219).

From USCCB: * [5:28–29] While Jn 5:19–27 present realized eschatology, Jn 5:28–29 are future eschatology; cf. Dn 12:2.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

mkgal1 said: ↑
This is from John 5:28 ~
Don't be surprised by this, because the time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.

BABerean2 said: ↑
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

So - was the FINAL physical resurrection back in Jesus' and John's day, when they spoke (and wrote) this or what are you trying to say?

Because I am of the belief that this is NOT a physical resurrection referred to (but I DO believe Jesus and John that this WAS fulfilled in THEIR generation - just as they said).

Hello mkgal.
BABerean2 brought that verse up so many times, I made a thread on it some time back.
Both "rising/standing up" and "rousing" are used and used in both Matt and Luk.
Here is the link if you and others are interested.

Matt 12 and Luke 11 "QUEEN OF SOUTH AND NINEVITES" JUDGING GENERATION

450. anistemi from 303 and 2476;
to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)
2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

Mattthew 12:41
`Men Ninevites shall be standing up<ana-sthsontai<450> (5698) in the judging<2920> with this generation and they shall be condemning it, that they reform/repent into the proclamation of Jonah
and behold! more of Jonah here.

Luke 11:32
'Men of Nineveh shall be resurrecting/standing-up <ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging<2920> with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,
because they reform/repent<3340> at the proclamation<2782> of Jonah
and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here!
============================
1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

Matthew 12:42
`A Queen of the south shall be being roused/egerqhsetai<1453> (5701) in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon,
and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luke 11:31
'A queen of the south shall be being roused<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation, and shall be condemning it, because she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and
behold! greater/more than Solomon here!
=================================

 

[Erik Nelson]

Which "Serpent" is Satan? - Israel Bible Weekly

serpent dragon = Isaiah 27:1 LXX

 

[mkgal1]

Which "Serpent" is Satan? - Israel Bible Weekly

serpent dragon = Isaiah 27:1 LXX

Excellent information, Erik!

That points to the theme of Isaiah 27 - "At the time when Israel shall be delivered, and the ungodly nations punished, God shall punish also the great enemy of the Church." ~ Isaiah 27 Commentary - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Which "Serpent" is Satan? - Israel Bible Weekly
serpent dragon = Isaiah 27:1 LXX

Excellent information, Erik!

That points to the theme of Isaiah 27 - "At the time when Israel shall be delivered, and the ungodly nations punished, God shall punish also the great enemy of the Church." ~ Isaiah 27 Commentary - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Hello Erik and mkgal.......I have been posting on this other thread and thought this reponse on the "head and tail" mentioned in the OT might interest you. This is a fairly "heated" thread right now ehehe......

Everyone should be watching developments in Israel

The Righterzpen said: ↑
If this is so, than why do they require billions of dollars in US aide?

The Righterzpen said: ↑
Yes that is "puzzling" isn't it? LOL - Why do you think they are so "prosperous"? If you go back and start digging through the military history of the region; you'll quickly realize that Israel would not even exist if it wasn't for the US.

===========================
Interesting.
That reminds me of Deut 28 "head and tail" since 70ad..............

Deuteronomy 28:
1 'And it hath been, if thou dost hearken diligently to the voice of Jehovah thy God, to observe to do all His commands which I am commanding thee to-day, that Jehovah thy God hath made thee uppermost above all the nations of the earth,
13 ‘And Yahweh hath given thee for head, and not for tail; and thou hast been only above, and art not beneath, for thou dost hearken unto the commands of Jehovah thy God, which I am commanding thee to-day, to keep and to do,

15 'And it hath been, if thou dost not hearken unto the voice of Jehovah thy God to observe to do all His commands, and His statutes, which I am commanding thee to-day, that all these revilings have come upon thee, and overtaken thee:

43 The foreigner who is in the midst of you shall mount up above you higher and higher; and you shall come down lower and lower.
44 “He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him;
he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.

Isaiah 9:
14 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel, Palm branch and bulrush in one day.
15 The elder and honorable, he is the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail.

Interesting that both tail and false prophet are mentioned in Revelation:

"TAIL OF THE DRAGON" Revelation 12:4

Revelation 12:4
His tail drew a third of the stars of the heaven and threw them to the land. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

Rev 16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.