How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

[Douggg]

Now you have Steve Gregg explains that it's Ancient Rome under the influence of Satan (but he's not alone in that belief).

Well I have not heard of Steve Gregg. He is certainly not representing what "most" believe about the dragon.

How is he fitting 1260 days and the time, times, half times - before and after the war in heaven into the Ancient Rome timeframe?

The woman is Israel. Not the church. Revelation 12:10 is referring to Israel, when the Jews finally embrace the gospel in the middle of the 7 years.

 

[mkgal1]

Quoting another article:
In Revelation chapter 12 a "great sign" appears in heaven. David Chilton commenting on the importance of this sign wrote the following:

St John alerts us from the outset that we must give careful attention to the subject of this vision, for the symbol of the Woman here is a great sign. "Literalists" would have it that the use of this term implies that most of Revelation is to be taken literally. But this is to miss the point. St. John is not saying that this passage, in contrast to the rest of the book, is a "sign," for he has already told us that the entire book is composed of "signs" (1:1). The point here is that this is a great sign, an important symbol, central to the interpretation of the prophecy as a whole. St. John is telling his readers to think carefully about the Biblical meaning of the sign. The Days of Vengeance, 1987, pg. 297.

Revelation chapter 12 presents us with three main characters; the woman, the male Child and the dragon. We also have three scenes; the birth of the Child (vv. 1-6), the casting of the dragon out of heaven (vv. 7-12), and the dragon making war with the woman and the rest of her children (vv. 13-17).

The male Child who is to "rule all the nations with a rod of iron" is Jesus, the Messiah (Rev. 19:15). The reference to the Messiah ruling over the nations is taken from the second Psalm.


Psalm 2:7-9

7. declaring the ordinance of the Lord: the Lord said to me, Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten thee.

8. Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession.

9. Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces as a potter’s vessel. (Septuagint)

Where God (the Father) says, "today I have begotten Thee" (Ps. 2:7) He is talking about when He raised Jesus from the dead, the resurrection. This is discussed in Acts chapter 13.

In Revelation 12 we are being shown this "birthing" of the Messiah. The male Child, after being born, is caught up to God’s throne. Once again what is being shown here is not Jesus being born on earth, but His being "born" when God the Father raised Him from the dead (Acts 13:33). Thus, as soon as the male Child is delivered He is caught up to God’s throne. Jesus referred to the birthing analogy in talking about His death and resurrection in John 16:20-22. Notice how the dragon (Satan Rev. 12:9) was expecting to devour the male Child. Satan thought he would be destroying Jesus at the cross. Instead the Child is caught up to the throne of God. Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God the Father at the resurrection (Acts 2:31-36). Satan, instead of devouring the Child as he had planned, ends up being cast out of heaven (Rev. 12:9).

After the birth of the male Child other children are born. These other children, those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17) are those who had been made spiritually alive to God by way of Jesus’ death and resurrection. In Romans chapter 8 we are told how Jesus was "the first-born among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). Revelation chapter 12 is unveiling this truth to us in picture form, showing us the first-born (Rev. 12:5), and then the many brethren (Rev. 12:17)

In Ephesians Paul talks of how we as Christians have been made alive together with Jesus.

Ephesians 2:4&5

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Thus the rest of the woman’s children are those who had been made spiritually alive to God by way of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

The woman represents heavenly Jerusalem symbolized as the mother of God’s New Covenant people. This picture is taken from the book of Isaiah. In Isaiah chapter 66 Jerusalem (also referred to as Zion) is pictured as a woman giving birth.
~ https://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2001_mckenzie_revelation-12.html

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


Who can show in the Revelation 12:7-17 timeline of events, where Revelation 20:1 initially fits in?

Does an angel come down from heaven to bind satan during verses 7-9?


What about during verse 12 and 13? What about during verse 17?

Nothing in Revelation 12:7-17 appears to fit with anything in Revelation 20:1. Yet, Revelation 20:1 can't be meaning a time preceding the war in heaven, then satan being cast to the earth. It has to be meaning a time post the war in heaven and he then being cast to the earth. This last sentence seems like simple common sense, thus I would be perplexed if anyone disagreed with this last sentence.

 

[eleos1954]

When you really think about it though, if the earth itself can be meaning the bottomless pit, well he does initially get cast to the earth after the war in heaven. The earth might not be desolate at the time, but he would be confined to the earth at the time. But even looking at it like that, that would seem to indicate once he is loosed, he is no longer confined solely to the earth, but once again has access to other locations. Plus, like I already pointed out in the OP, Revelation 12:11-17 is depicting a satan that is loose, and not one who is bound and shut up inside of a prison, as in cut off from the outside world entirely.

During the 1,000 years Satan has no humans to tempt (they the unsaved are all dead - slain by Christs presence at His return). He (Satan) is bound/in prisoned/chained with no human to tempt for the 1,000 years.

Satan is loosed on earth after the 1,000 years and at the 2nd resurrection of all the unsaved dead.

At the 2nd resurrection (all the unsaved dead are resurrected) then once again Satan does have humans to use (he is loosed) and He uses them to attack the Holy City that has descended from heaven.

 

[devin553344]

I personally think Satan was bound for getting Jesus the Christ crucified. He was then bound to around 1000 AD and was loosed. Which is when the dark ages started roughly, explaining the dark ages.

 

[Douggg]

Well I have not heard of Steve Gregg. He is certainly not representing what "most" believe about the dragon.

How is he fitting 1260 days and the time, times, half times - before and after the war in heaven into the Ancient Rome timeframe?

The woman is Israel. Not the church. Revelation 12:10 is referring to Israel, when the Jews finally embrace the gospel in the middle of the 7 years.

Well, I looked him up on You Tube. And I do recognize the face, but did not connect the person with his name.

 

[DavidPT]

That's what I mean that if one tries to take this as literal and linear it's a problem, but it's not a problem if it's not.

I can see where this might be true in some cases, where it's probably best to not take something as literal and linear. Yet, if nothing is ever linear involving Eschatology, why not just conclude the 2nd coming occurs first, followed by the war in heaven, so on and so on, as an example?

 

[DavidPT]

During the 1,000 years Satan has no humans to tempt (they the unsaved are all dead - slain by Christs presence at His return). He (Satan) is bound/in prisoned/chained with no human to tempt for the 1,000 years.

Satan is loosed on earth after the 1,000 years and at the 2nd resurrection of all the unsaved dead.

At the 2nd resurrection (all the unsaved dead are resurrected) then once again Satan does have humans to use (he is loosed) and He uses them to attack the Holy City that has descended from heaven.

This sounds like SDA doctrine. There's numerous things I do agree with the SDA about though, but this wouldn't be one of them.

 

[mkgal1]

Who can show in the Revelation 12:7-17 timeline of events, where Revelation 20:1 initially fits in?

These are the events we should keep in mind (in my belief):

We also have three scenes; the birth of the Child (vv. 1-6), the casting of the dragon out of heaven (vv. 7-12), and the dragon making war with the woman and the rest of her children (vv. 13-17).

Where does Revelation 20:1 fit in? Here - but it's earlier in Revelation 12 (IMO):

Revelation 20:1 ~ Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a huge chain.

Luke 1:26-33 ~ When Elizabeth was six months pregnant, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a city in Galilee, 27 to a virgin who was engaged to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David’s house. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 When the angel came to her, he said, “Rejoice, favored one! The Lord is with you!” 29 She was confused by these words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 The angel said, “Don’t be afraid, Mary. God is honoring you. 31 Look! You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be great and he will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of David his father. 33 He will rule over Jacob’s house forever, and there will be no end to his kingdom.”

Revelation 12:5 ~ She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.​

 

[Monk Brendan]

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

If verse 1 doesn't involve location, what does it involve then? Obviously, if an angel is seen coming down from heaven, this indicates this angel was initially in heaven, leaves heaven, then travels to a new location. Where is the logical location this angel would likely be coming to? The earth of course. This tells us that is because that is where the angel finds satan residing at the time.

What else does this tell us?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Obviously it tells us the initial fulfillment of Revelation 20:1 is meaning a time post the war in heaven, and also post a time satan being cast to the earth at the time. But if not that, thus satan still had access to heaven as of Revelation 20:1, why did the angel need to come down from heaven to bind satan if satan sill had access to heaven in some manner or another?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

As soon as satan realizes he hath been cast to the earth, verse 13 is what he initially sets out to accomplish. Then when he ultimately fails at that, verse 17 is then his plan from that point on.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where does his initial binding fit in with any of this? Nothing in Revelation 12:12-17 depicts a satan that is bound. All of it is depicting a satan that is loose. Therefore, the only logical place the binding of satan can possibly fit, is after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:12-17.

Obviously Revelation 12:17----and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---this involves the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. This tells us satan is initially bound after the 42 month reign of the beast has run it's course. This clearly places the initial binding of satan at the end of this age, and not several thousand years ago instead. And if satan's initial binding has to occur in the end of this age, or better yet, once this age has ended, then so must the same be true of the thousand years of reigning with Christ.

As to the title of the thread then, taking into account what I just submitted, how can satan logically already be bound without contradicting anything in Revelation 12?

BTW, the way it looks to me, it doesn't matter where one places when satan is initially cast to the earth. Some place it 2000 years ago. Some place it in our future still. It still doesn't take away from the fact, that when satan is initially cast to the earth, he is not being depicted as being bound in a pit, he is being depicted as being on the loose. Plus like I also pointed out, all of Revelation 12:12-17 has to be fulfilled first, before satan can even get bound. Nothing in Revelation 12 involves satan's binding. Verse 17 has to conclude with the end of this age being the result eventually.

St. Augustine understood the "binding of Satan" to mean he/she/it is limited in power, not rendered powerless.

And the thousand years is the time between Christ's first and second comings.

Remember that twice in the Bible we are warned NOT to take 1000 years as fallen earthly years when talking about eschatology.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I can see where this might be true in some cases, where it's probably best to not take something as literal and linear. Yet, if nothing is ever linear involving Eschatology, why not just conclude the 2nd coming occurs first, followed by the war in heaven, so on and so on, as an example?

It's not that nothing's linear as it pertains to Eschatology; but more has to do with how to approach and interpret apocalyptic literature such as the Revelation of St. John.

I am personally of the opinion that St. John's Apocalypse isn't where we should be getting our Eschatology from, there are certainly aspects of it that are helpful, but our chief source of eschatology should be from the more straight forward and unambiguous places in Scripture, such as the Gospels and the Epistles. Revelation should probably be the last place we go for this.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[Dave L]

We add to Revelation if we say Satan's binding exceeds not deceiving the nations until his allotted time ends.

 

[mkgal1]

We add to Revelation if we say Satan's binding exceeds not deceiving the nations until his allotted time ends.

Agreed. His binding was against that specifically (deceiving the nations) - and it (his powerlessness against Christ's work on the cross) allowed the disciples to obey Jesus' command to "Go make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19-20).

 

[Pedra]

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan isn't bound yet. He will be after the Day of the Lord when God's will and purpose for the world & mankind is fulfilled & Christ reigns on earth for 1000 yrs.
What is the day of the Lord?

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is bound by a chain which means to have it wrapped around him preventing arm and leg movement ie: incapable of moving. Whether the chain is spiritual or literal doesn't change what it's purpose and it's result. It's is irrelevant whether it's made of steel, gold, plasma or kryptonite.

He is also cast into a bottomless pit which is where the Genesis fallen angels are also kept. Satan is "shut up" in this pit which is a prison for angelic beings. He is also "sealed". So there are three things that bind and imprison Satan both physically and spiritually. Satan cannot leave the pit or influence anything outside of the pit nor in the pit. He is completely and utterly incapacitated. Any doctrine that teaches anything otherwise is changing what the scriptures present. When this happens, the world will be without Satan's deceptions and lies for the first time in history. This is the perfect time for the gospel to finally reach those who normally would be deceived and incapable of hearing or accepting the gospel. In addition these same people will be under the shepherding rule of Jesus and his resurrected priests and kings who are Christian saints, many having been murdered in the great tribulation. None of this has yet happened.

Any doctrine that teaches Satan will have any amount of influence and mobility and power outside of the pit, and can deceive anyone during the thousand years is teaching things that scripture does not teach and in fact contradicts what scripture does teach about Satan and that time period.




Amil: Satan is like a dog on a long chain that is able to move around his own territory, doing what he wants and deceiving people but is "limited" by the gospel.

Premil: Satan is bound by a chain (most likely this means to have the chain wrapped around him so he is fully disabled) and then cast into a pit, and then a seal placed on the pit. This means Satan cannot deceive anyone in the slightest, this means complete control over Satan, this means Satan cannot get out of the pit nor influence anyone else at all. That is the only doctrine that matches the language in Rev 20.

 

[DavidPT]

St. Augustine understood the "binding of Satan" to mean he/she/it is limited in power, not rendered powerless.

And the thousand years is the time between Christ's first and second comings.

Remember that twice in the Bible we are warned NOT to take 1000 years as fallen earthly years when talking about eschatology.

Maybe you hold St. Augustine in high esteem. But I don't though. He's no different than any other human that has lived on this planet. He's just as prone to being wrong about some of these things as anyone else is. And the same is true of these past Commentators many seem to be relying on for their understanding of some of these things. This is also true of Scholars. Just because one is a Scholar this doesn't mean they can never be wong about things at times. You can pretty much pick any subject, and not all Scholars will be coming to the exact same conclusions about the subject in question. They all can't be correct if they are not all coming to the same conclusions. Which then proves my point.

 

[mkgal1]

Satan is bound by a chain which means to have it wrapped around him preventing arm and leg movement ie: incapable of moving.

Satan is a spirit. He doesn't HAVE arms and legs. The text says nothing about "moving".

 

[eleos1954]

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


Who can show in the Revelation 12:7-17 timeline of events, where Revelation 20:1 initially fits in?

Does an angel come down from heaven to bind satan during verses 7-9?


What about during verse 12 and 13? What about during verse 17?

Nothing in Revelation 12:7-17 appears to fit with anything in Revelation 20:1. Yet, Revelation 20:1 can't be meaning a time preceding the war in heaven, then satan being cast to the earth. It has to be meaning a time post the war in heaven and he then being cast to the earth. This last sentence seems like simple common sense, thus I would be perplexed if anyone disagreed with this last sentence.

Revelation 12:7-17 is recapping history when Satan and the angels were cast down to the earth due to the war in heaven.

Revelation 20:1-3 The referring to the Millennium: of which was explained in detail in my previous post.

After Christ’s second coming, the earth is utterly desolate, a jagged smoldering ruin. The righteous have been taken to Heaven, and the wicked have been destroyed. 2 Thessalonians 2:8.

The book of Revelation is not chronological

The book of Revelation is like a highly condensed version of the bible. It starts off with the present status of the churches of Johns day, also recaps (reminds us of) significant events in history (such as when Satan and the angels were cast to earth) and also prophecies of the future, yet to come.

 

[DavidPT]

Satan is a spirit. He doesn't HAVE arms and legs. The text says nothing about "moving".

How do you know a spirit doesn't have arms and legs? Maybe spirits don't have heads either, which would mean no mouths? Which then makes one wonder how satan was able to vocally communicate with God in the book of Job, as an example?

 

[mkgal1]

that he should deceive the nations no more

This means Satan cannot deceive anyone in the slightest

I agree. But that's ALL it means (and it's because of Jesus' death on the cross that leaves Satan powerless to deceive).