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Featured How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    If verse 1 doesn't involve location, what does it involve then? Obviously, if an angel is seen coming down from heaven, this indicates this angel was initially in heaven, leaves heaven, then travels to a new location. Where is the logical location this angel would likely be coming to? The earth of course. This tells us that is because that is where the angel finds satan residing at the time.

    What else does this tell us?

    Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


    Obviously it tells us the initial fulfillment of Revelation 20:1 is meaning a time post the war in heaven, and also post a time satan being cast to the earth at the time. But if not that, thus satan still had access to heaven as of Revelation 20:1, why did the angel need to come down from heaven to bind satan if satan sill had access to heaven in some manner or another?

    Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    As soon as satan realizes he hath been cast to the earth, verse 13 is what he initially sets out to accomplish. Then when he ultimately fails at that, verse 17 is then his plan from that point on.

    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Where does his initial binding fit in with any of this? Nothing in Revelation 12:12-17 depicts a satan that is bound. All of it is depicting a satan that is loose. Therefore, the only logical place the binding of satan can possibly fit, is after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:12-17.

    Obviously Revelation 12:17----and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---this involves the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. This tells us satan is initially bound after the 42 month reign of the beast has run it's course. This clearly places the initial binding of satan at the end of this age, and not several thousand years ago instead. And if satan's initial binding has to occur in the end of this age, or better yet, once this age has ended, then so must the same be true of the thousand years of reigning with Christ.

    As to the title of the thread then, taking into account what I just submitted, how can satan logically already be bound without contradicting anything in Revelation 12?

    BTW, the way it looks to me, it doesn't matter where one places when satan is initially cast to the earth. Some place it 2000 years ago. Some place it in our future still. It still doesn't take away from the fact, that when satan is initially cast to the earth, he is not being depicted as being bound in a pit, he is being depicted as being on the loose. Plus like I also pointed out, all of Revelation 12:12-17 has to be fulfilled first, before satan can even get bound. Nothing in Revelation 12 involves satan's binding. Verse 17 has to conclude with the end of this age being the result eventually.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
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  2. brightlights

    brightlights A sinner

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    Satan is bound today.
     
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  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    And you see this as a valid argument, thus debunking everything I submitted in the OP? It sounds more like a personal opinion, and nothing more.
     
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Are you interpreting the dragon to be = Satan? Some believe the Dragon is = ancient Rome influenced by Satan. The serpent and the Dragon are different (I think).

    Revelation Chapter 12

    ETA: From the link above -
    The second half of verse 4 may be a reference to Herod’s attempt to kill Jesus by enforcing the death of all Hebrew children below age 2:

    And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.”

    In Matthew 2:1-18 we read about the wise men from the east who came to Jerusalem asking about the birth of the King of the Jews (verses 1-2). This troubled Herod, who quizzed the chief priests and scribes and found out that, according to Micah 5:2, the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem (verses 3-6). He instructed the wise men to find the Child, Jesus, and to let him know where he was (verses 7-8). However, the wise men were warned in a dream not to return to Herod (verse 12), and Herod, when he discovered that they had deceived him, put to death all children below the age of two throughout Bethlehem and its districts (verses 16-18). Joseph and Mary had already been warned in a dream to take Jesus and flee to Egypt (verses 13-15).

    Duncan McKenzie, on the other hand, believes this is a reference to Jesus’ resurrection from the dead:

    In Revelation 12 we are being shown this “birthing” of the Messiah. The male Child, after being born, is caught up to God’s throne. Once again what is being shown here is not Jesus being born on earth, but His being “born” when God the Father raised Him from the dead (Acts 13:33).* Thus, as soon as the male Child is delivered He is caught up to God’s throne. Jesus referred to the birthing analogy in talking about His death and resurrection in John 16:20-22. Notice how the dragon (Satan, Rev. 12:9) was expecting to devour the male Child. Satan thought he would be destroying Jesus at the cross. Instead the Child is caught up to the throne of God. Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God the Father at the resurrection(Acts 2:31-36). Satan, instead of devouring the Child as he had planned, ends up being cast out of heaven (Rev. 12:9).

    *Acts 13:33 reads this way: “God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You.’”
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019 at 4:19 PM
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  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Satan is known as the "accuser of the brethren". He can no longer accuse and call us "guilty" when Jesus has "taken away the sin of this world" (does that mean there's NO sin? Of course not).
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    @DavidPT

    Revelation 12:7-9 the war in heaven will happen just a little after day 1260 on the 7 year time line.

    The heaven in that verse is not the third heaven, but the second heaven the cosmos.

    Satan and his angels being cast down to earth is the beginning of the dismantling of Satan's kingdom labeled Babylon the Great.
    ______________________________________________________

    Revelation 12:6, is the first 1260 days of the 7 years. Near the end of that 1260 days, the Abomination of Desolation will be placed in the temple. And the Jews begin to flee into the wilderness, as the two witnesses battle with the beast.

    On day 1260, the two witnesses will be killed. On day 1263.5, the two witnesses ascend to (the third) heaven. Followed by the earthquake and then by the 7th trumpet sounding, to take the kingdoms of this world out from under Satan's grasp.

    Which the dismantling of Satan's mystery kingdom of Babylon the Great begins. And ends the time, times, half time later - when Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit in Revelation 20:1.
     
  7. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus died and rose again, He now holds the keys of death and hades. Satan has no power over God's people - those who Jesus set free (from bondage to sin) are free indeed.

    Satan has been bound since Christ. 1000 years are not literal, but meant to denote a long period of time, 10 is a number that indicates God's governmental rule in the Bible, so 10 × 10 is Gods perfect rule...

    Satan no longer has access to the Temple, the presence of God.. He is angry with us, but that doesn't mean he is not bound where concerns God's people.

    This is the way it is meant to be... and Satan is bound.
     
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  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I don't think many of the statements made in the Apocalypse can be located at any specific time; but rather addresses larger ideas and themes.

    Satan is bound because Christ defeated him by the cross and empty tomb. Satan also rages because "his time is short". A literal and linear reading of the Apocalypse would say these are contradictory; but only if one takes the text to be in any way literal or linear. If one doesn't take such an approach, than this isn't problematic.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The symbolic nature of 1,000 is also simply in its meaning of "a lot", for example we read that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. The meaning is that God owns everything, not that God owns only a thousand hills' worth of cattle. Hence the thousand years is understood, historically, as referring to the indefinite period of time while Christ lives and reigns, in heaven, at the right hand of the Father--between His Ascension when He was given all power and dominion, and His Parousia, when He comes and all things are handed over to the Father, and all is made new.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  10. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Paul said that at Christ's second coming the wicked "will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord." And in the symbolic description of Christ going to war against the kings of the earth and their armies, Revelation 19:18 says that the birds of the air will "eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, . . . and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small." From this it's evident that the wicked will be all be slain at Christ's second coming.

    Satan will also be bound during the millennium. Revelation 20:2, 3 says that an angel from heaven "seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended."

    The word "abyss" (sometimes translated "bottomless pit") is from the Greek "abussos." In the Greek version of Genesis 1:2, the word abussos, translated "the deep," is used to describe the pre-Creation condition of the earth—"formless and empty." Revelation simply means that during the millennium Satan will be confined to this desolate earth with no one to tempt. All the saved are in heaven ... all the rest were already dead and in the grave or slain at the return of Jesus. No human alive on earth!
     
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  11. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree...
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    The problem with this thinking though, satan isn't bound indefinitely, he is only bound a thousand years, then he is loosed a little season. If what you said is what it means when he is bound, what does it mean when he is loosed then? Does it mean the same thing? IOW does it mean the following---Satan is loosed because Christ defeated him by the cross and empty tomb.
     
  14. brightlights

    brightlights A sinner

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    The binding of Satan can be compared to putting a dog on a leash. A dog on a leash can still do damage, but it can only do damage within a permitted area. Similarly, Satan can still do damage, but he is on a leash. This has enabled the gospel to spread from one nation to all the nations of the world in the past 2000 years. Satan's influence of the nations has dramatically been restricted since the cross.

    But toward the end he will be unleashed for a short time and we may expect a large turning away from the gospel among the nations before the return of Christ.
     
  15. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Quoting from Adam Maarschalk: Verses 7-9: Here we see a scene in heaven of a war between the dragon and the archangel Michael, and also between their two respective armies of angels. Michael and his armies win the war, and the dragon and his angels are cast down to the earth. Steve Gregg writes (p. 262), “The war in heaven (vs. 7) is not chronologically sequential to the flight of the woman into the wilderness.” He quotes David Chilton, whose view is that verses 7-12 explain why the woman needed to flee into the wilderness. Verse 13 returns to the scene of the flight of the woman.

    Interestingly, the Roman historian Tacitus records that the following took place in the skies in 66 AD:

    “Prodigies had indeed occurred, but to avert them either by victims or by vows is held unlawful by a people which, though prone to superstition, is opposed to all propitiatory rites. Contending hosts were seen meeting in the skies, arms flashed, and suddenly the temple was illumined with fire from the clouds. Of a sudden the doors of the shrine opened and a superhuman voice cried: ‘The gods are departing.’ At the same moment the mighty stir of their going was heard. Few interpreted these omens as fearful. The majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the east should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world” (Tacitus’ Histories 5.8.13-14).

    Verses 10-11: We see that Satan is referred to as “the accuser of the brethren.” We can certainly see him playing this role in Old Testament times, and before Jesus went to the cross. We see this in the case of Job (Job 1:6-7), where Satan stands before God accusing Job of being incapable of serving God if he is left unprotected. We see this again in Zechariah 3:1, where Satan is pictured standing before the angel of the Lord to accuse Joshua the high priest. In Luke 22:31 we are told that Satan has put in a specific request to sift Peter as wheat. A not-as-clear reference to this type of activity also appears in Jude 9, where we learn that Satan entered into contention with the archangel Michael over the body of Moses. Steve Gregg also writes,

    Because the great dragon was cast out (v. 9) as a consequence of the battle, we can pinpoint the heavenly battle as being at the same time as the accomplishment of the atonement at the death and resurrection of Christ.” One of several evidences of this is found in Jesus’ statement (recorded by the same author): “now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out (John 12:31). Another evidence appears in the announcement that Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ has come (v. 10). This also coincides with the atonement. In addition, other New Testament authors confirm that a victory of this sort over Satan was accomplished by Christ in His death (cf. Col. 2:15, Heb. 2:14-15).

    The death of Christ did not put Satan entirely out of business, but it ended his career as the accuser of our brethren (v. 10), his principle role in pre-Christian times (cf. Job 1-2; Zechariah 3). The blood of Christ has undermined the grounds of every charge that Satan might bring against the brethren [Romans 8:33-34]. Satan is cast to the earth. He cannot accuse the saints before God any longer, as they overcame his accusations by appeal to the atoning blood of the Lamb (vs. 11). They also take territory from the satanic kingdom by the word of their testimony (that is, preaching the gospel), and by their willingness to die rather than be intimidated by persecution (vs. 11).

    Interesting in this light is a statement that Jesus made to His disciples in response to a question from Judas: “I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on Me…” (John 14:30).

    Verse 12: Again quoting Steve Gregg (p. 268), “A woe is pronounced upon the inhabitants of the earth [or land] (v. 12) since the thwarted dragon is now limited in his range of activity and will vent his wrath both upon the saints and upon the apostate Jews. His intention is to stamp out the church before it can extend itself as a globally entity. Since Jesus indicated [Matt. 24:14] that this would be accomplished within a single generation (Matt. 16:28; 24:34), the dragon has only a short time (vs. 12) to stamp out the infant movement. Thus, he goes to war with the remaining seed of the woman.” ~ Revelation Chapter 12
     
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  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    When you really think about it though, if the earth itself can be meaning the bottomless pit, well he does initially get cast to the earth after the war in heaven. The earth might not be desolate at the time, but he would be confined to the earth at the time. But even looking at it like that, that would seem to indicate once he is loosed, he is no longer confined solely to the earth, but once again has access to other locations. Plus, like I already pointed out in the OP, Revelation 12:11-17 is depicting a satan that is loose, and not one who is bound and shut up inside of a prison, as in cut off from the outside world entirely.
     
  17. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    In a sense he is loosed, in that he now rages due to his time being short. He is bound, robbed of his power by Christ who defeated him; and he rages, loosed upon the world because his time is short. That's what I mean that if one tries to take this as literal and linear it's a problem, but it's not a problem if it's not.

    So here it's not this then that, it's this and that.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Now you have :sunglasses: Steve Gregg explains that it's Ancient Rome under the influence of Satan (but he's not alone in that belief).
     
  19. Curtis.Hilliker

    Curtis.Hilliker Moderated Since 2019

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    1 Peter 5:8
    Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
     
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  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Quoting linked article: After the Christ child was born, there was a war in heaven and Satan was cast to the earth. This angelic war was reportedly at the start of the Jewish War in A.D. 66 according to two first century Roman historians.

    After being cast to the earth, the devil poured a river out of its mouth in order to drown the woman in a flood. Nero, the beast, was building a canal when he heard about Israel’s revolt against Rome; and he immediately ordered the Roman army to attack Israel. Is this man-made river the river of Revelation 12:15-16? Regardless, the flood it causes as is the case in Isaiah 8:7-8, Daniel 11:10, Daniel 11:40, Nahum 1:8 and Joel 2:9 is a Biblical metaphor for an invading army—namely the Roman legions. The church historian Eusebius says that the Jewish Christians of Jerusalem fled the city before the war. Is the woman that escapes the devil’s assault in Revelation 12:6-17 a symbol of these Christian refugees? ~ Revelation 12: A Preterist Commentary - Revelation Revolution
     
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