How can baptism be required for salvation?

[bbbbbbb]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a “mortal sin”? And if there is a “mortal sin” then there may yet be a not-mortal sin: what is one of those?

The reason I ask is that, according to Scripture, if you break even the smallest part of God’s law that makes you a law breaker, and makes you guilty of breaking the whole law (James 2:10).

I apologize for butting in here. According to the Catholic Church a mortal sin is any sin which is intentional and serious to the point that one's salvation is lost if one commits it. Here are a few examples:

1. Breaking any of the Ten Commandments, especially murder and adultery.
2. Suicide, which is self-murder.
3. Abortion.
4. Birth control.
5. Not attending weekly mass.
6. Failure to confess your sins to a priest to receive forgiveness.
7. A whole list of moral sins which begins with masturbation.

Venial sins, which are the opposite of mortal sins are minor sins, including unintentional sins. They generally do not harm other persons or are not in serious violation of God's commandments.

I think you probably have a system in your church which is not unlike this system. If, for example, a member happens to exceed the speed limit in driving to church on Sunday I doubt that you would say that he had lost his salvation. However, if one of your members commits murder I think you would probably believe that he had lost his salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

I apologize for butting in here. According to the Catholic Church a mortal sin is any sin which is intentional and serious to the point that one's salvation is lost if one commits it. Here are a few examples:

1. Breaking any of the Ten Commandments, especially murder and adultery.
2. Suicide, which is self-murder.
3. Abortion.
4. Birth control.
5. Not attending weekly mass.
6. Failure to confess your sins to a priest to receive forgiveness.
7. A whole list of moral sins which begins with masturbation.

Venial sins, which are the opposite of mortal sins are minor sins, including unintentional sins. They generally do not harm other persons or are not in serious violation of God's commandments.

I think you probably have a system in your church which is not unlike this system. If, for example, a member happens to exceed the speed limit in driving to church on Sunday I doubt that you would say that he had lost his salvation. However, if one of your members commits murder I think you would probably believe that he had lost his salvation.

Honestly, no. Sin is sin. ANY sin is a violation of God’s law, and results in spiritual death (separation from God). But after a person is saved (baptized into Christ) he is continually cleansed from ALL sin as long as he walks in the Light. Even “mortal sins” are forgiven as long as the person is repentant and trying to live by God’s standard.

As for the list of “mortal sins”, I would be interested in knowing where in Scripture that distinction is made. I mean, under the Old Covenant, even disrespect to your parents was punished by death by stoning. As far as I can tell, all sin is equal in God’s eyes.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Honestly, no. Sin is sin. ANY sin is a violation of God’s law, and results in spiritual death (separation from God). But after a person is saved (baptized into Christ) he is continually cleansed from ALL sin as long as he walks in the Light. Even “mortal sins” are forgiven as long as the person is repentant and trying to live by God’s standard.

As for the list of “mortal sins”, I would be interested in knowing where in Scripture that distinction is made. I mean, under the Old Covenant, even disrespect to your parents was punished by death by stoning. As far as I can tell, all sin is equal in God’s eyes.

You have touched on the inherent tension in most Christian theology. Catholic theology agrees in essence that following baptism a Christian has been cleansed of all sin. The problem develops when a person is no longer repentant and trying to live by God's standard. I think you would agree that a baptized Christian who is guilty of murder is no longer repentant and living by God's standard. Thus, murder is an intentional sin which deprives baptized Christians of salvation. If you believe that, then you are in essential agreement with Catholic theology. The difference comes in determining what sins fall into this category.

 

[Valletta]

Honestly, no. Sin is sin. ANY sin is a violation of God’s law, and results in spiritual death (separation from God). But after a person is saved (baptized into Christ) he is continually cleansed from ALL sin as long as he walks in the Light. Even “mortal sins” are forgiven as long as the person is repentant and trying to live by God’s standard.

As for the list of “mortal sins”, I would be interested in knowing where in Scripture that distinction is made. I mean, under the Old Covenant, even disrespect to your parents was punished by death by stoning. As far as I can tell, all sin is equal in God’s eyes.

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God a]">[a] will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. Luke 12:47-48

 

[bbbbbbb]

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God a]">[a] will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. Luke 12:47-48

The problem, as I noted previously, is determining precisely which sins are mortal and which are venial. It seems to me that the majority of European Catholics consider skipping mass to be a venial sin, given the fact that attendance at weekly mass, even in allegedly Catholic countries such as France, Italy, and Spain, is amazingly low.

 

[Valletta]

The problem, as I noted previously, is determining precisely which sins are mortal and which are venial. It seems to me that the majority of European Catholics consider skipping mass to be a venial sin, given the fact that attendance at weekly mass, even in allegedly Catholic countries such as France, Italy, and Spain, is amazingly low.

There is a difference between practicing Catholics and cultural Catholics, as is the case with a number of other religions. I can confidently say that most cultural Catholics in the U.S. do not know their faith and are instead very much part of the secular world. I would guess it is the same in Europe. Going to mass on Sunday and a few other days, and a few other minor things, have been decided upon as pretty much a minimum one must do to keep the Catholic faith, and I totally agree with the discipline. If you skip masses typically such a person wouldn't care about the difference between venial and mortal sins. It is impossible to list every circumstance defining the difference between a mortal and venial sin because as the Bible shows sins have degrees, based upon circumstance, an easy way is that a mortal sin normally would be like walking down a hall and facing a roaring lion, something that separates you from God.

 

[Doug Brents]

You have touched on the inherent tension in most Christian theology. Catholic theology agrees in essence that following baptism a Christian has been cleansed of all sin. The problem develops when a person is no longer repentant and trying to live by God's standard. I think you would agree that a baptized Christian who is guilty of murder is no longer repentant and living by God's standard. Thus, murder is an intentional sin which deprives baptized Christians of salvation. If you believe that, then you are in essential agreement with Catholic theology. The difference comes in determining what sins fall into this category.

Any sin, regardless of how “small” falls into this category if it is unrepented of: lying, petty theft, watching porn, coveting anything, the list ones on…. All of them are “mortal sins”.

But even murder or rape (or whatever your “highest” sin is) can be forgiven if the heart is truly repentant.

 

[Valletta]

Any sin, regardless of how “small” falls into this category if it is unrepented of: lying, petty theft, watching porn, coveting anything, the list ones on…. All of them are “mortal sins”.

But even murder or rape (or whatever your “highest” sin is) can be forgiven if the heart is truly repentant.

Toward the beginning of mass we ask God to forgive our sins.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is a difference between practicing Catholics and cultural Catholics, as is the case with a number of other religions. I can confidently say that most cultural Catholics in the U.S. do not know their faith and are instead very much part of the secular world. I would guess it is the same in Europe. Going to mass on Sunday and a few other days, and a few other minor things, have been decided upon as pretty much a minimum one must do to keep the Catholic faith, and I totally agree with the discipline. If you skip masses typically such a person wouldn't care about the difference between venial and mortal sins. It is impossible to list every circumstance defining the difference between a mortal and venial sin because as the Bible shows sins have degrees, based upon circumstance, an easy way is that a mortal sin normally would be like walking down a hall and facing a roaring lion, something that separates you from God.

I perfectly understand the difference between practicing Catholics and cultural Catholics. Given the Catholic Church's teachings regarding mortal sin, then virtually all of the latter will be in hell, not Purgatory, after death.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Any sin, regardless of how “small” falls into this category if it is unrepented of: lying, petty theft, watching porn, coveting anything, the list ones on…. All of them are “mortal sins”.

But even murder or rape (or whatever your “highest” sin is) can be forgiven if the heart is truly repentant.

I understand. So, do you believe that after a person is baptized, if they exceed the speed limit while driving, thus breaking the law and thus sinning against God who has established governing authorities, then that person has lost his salvation?

Let's say, given the above situation, that in the process of exceeding the speed limit, the Christian driver happened to run over a pedestrian and kill them while attempting to get through a traffic light. Would that change the status of the sin or not?

 

[Doug Brents]

I understand. So, do you believe that after a person is baptized, if they exceed the speed limit while driving, thus breaking the law and thus sinning against God who has established governing authorities, then that person has lost his salvation?

Could be. The question is not, “Did he sin?” The question is, “Is he walking in the Light?” There is no way to cease sinning. We can work out guys out our whole life, but we will still sin. But God said that as long as we are walking in the Light, having our heart set on God and His will, and are desiring Him, then we are continually and constantly cleansed.

Let's say, given the above situation, that in the process of exceeding the speed limit, the Christian driver happened to run over a pedestrian and kill them while attempting to get through a traffic light. Would that change the status of the sin or not?

No, there is no change to the sin. Besides the fact that the pedestrian should not be in the road yet (assuming the light has just changed, which isn’t stated but I am assuming from the way you stated the scenario) so some of the responsibility was his, hitting a pedestrian in that way is an accident. It was not premeditated, nor was it intentional. Looking at the Old Covenant, there are provisions made for accidental killing. It is NOT murder. (Just as an aside; the sixth commandment is not “do not kill”. It really says “do not murder”. Killing is not only ok in some circumstances, but is commanded by God at times.)

As Paul says at the end of Rom 5 and the beginning of 6, God’s grace covers our sin continually and completely, but we should not seek to go on sinning just because His grace covers us. Instead, we should seek to live right lives, avoiding sin, and honoring God. If that is our focus, and providing we are already “in Christ”, then all sin is cleansed and forgiven instantly and continually. So even if the person in your scenario were to die immediately after killing the pedestrian, he would still be saved.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Could be. The question is not, “Did he sin?” The question is, “Is he walking in the Light?” There is no way to cease sinning. We can work out guys out our whole life, but we will still sin. But God said that as long as we are walking in the Light, having our heart set on God and His will, and are desiring Him, then we are continually and constantly cleansed.


No, there is no change to the sin. Besides the fact that the pedestrian should not be in the road yet (assuming the light has just changed, which isn’t stated but I am assuming from the way you stated the scenario) so some of the responsibility was his, hitting a pedestrian in that way is an accident. It was not premeditated, nor was it intentional. Looking at the Old Covenant, there are provisions made for accidental killing. It is NOT murder. (Just as an aside; the sixth commandment is not “do not kill”. It really says “do not murder”. Killing is not only ok in some circumstances, but is commanded by God at times.)

As Paul says at the end of Rom 5 and the beginning of 6, God’s grace covers our sin continually and completely, but we should not seek to go on sinning just because His grace covers us. Instead, we should seek to live right lives, avoiding sin, and honoring God. If that is our focus, and providing we are already “in Christ”, then all sin is cleansed and forgiven instantly and continually. So even if the person in your scenario were to die immediately after killing the pedestrian, he would still be saved.

This reminds me of an interesting law in Saudi Arabia. If a foreigner in Saudi Arabia is the victim of an accident or of a crime by a native Saudi Arabian, the fault lies not with the native, but with the foreigner, because if the foreigner had never entered the country then the problem would never have happened.

In the case I cited, you implied that the pedestrian was illegally walking in the road. If that same pedestrian was walking across the street with the "Walk" light on and was killed, even though what he was doing was perfectly legal and he had the right of way, it would not matter would it?

Let's say the pedestrian was "walking with the light" to borrow your phrase and was a baptized Christian and the baptized Christian driver who was also "walking in the Light" but running a red light in the process and broke the speed limit to boot, then that is okey-dokey, and he will be free to go.

However, let's say the pedestrian was on on his way to church in order to get baptized when he was killed, then he will have a one-way ticket to hell, right?

 

[Doug Brents]

In the case I cited, you implied that the pedestrian was illegally walking in the road. If that same pedestrian was walking across the street with the "Walk" light on and was killed, even though what he was doing was perfectly legal and he had the right of way, it would not matter would it?

Of course it would matter: someone died. That always matters. But in terms of sin, the driver would not be guilty of murder. Accidental death does not equal murder.

Let's say the pedestrian was "walking with the light"

walking IN the Light (of God)? Or walking WITH the traffic light?

to borrow your phrase and was a baptized Christian and the baptized Christian driver who was also "walking in the Light" but running a red light in the process and broke the speed limit to boot, then that is okey-dokey, and he will be free to go.

God’s principles don’t change to fit the situation. The principle is written in stone. It does not matter what the person driving was doing (whether sin or not sin), if he is walking in the Light (not my phrase, God’s from 1 John 1:7), then he is continually cleansed from all sin.

However, let's say the pedestrian was on on his way to church in order to get baptized when he was killed, then he will have a one-way ticket to hell, right?

A few things here:
1. I am not God, so I don’t have to make that call.
2. We are not lost to Hell because we were not baptized. We are lost to Hell because we denied God. We are condemned because we sin. And the only way back into right relationship with God is through Christ
3. And since Scripture is God’s instruction to us, and since He says that we connect with the the blood of Christ and are cleansed through the washing of Water by the Word, then yes, I would have to judge that the pedestrian who is struck and killed on his way to be baptized would still be condemned to Hell.

That is why I (as the Apostles practiced) always baptize someone who comes to belief in Christ IMMEDIATELY. I don’t let them go delay.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Of course it would matter: someone died. That always matters. But in terms of sin, the driver would not be guilty of murder. Accidental death does not equal murder.

walking IN the Light (of God)? Or walking WITH the traffic light?

God’s principles don’t change to fit the situation. The principle is written in stone. It does not matter what the person driving was doing (whether sin or not sin), if he is walking in the Light (not my phrase, God’s from 1 John 1:7), then he is continually cleansed from all sin.

A few things here:
1. I am not God, so I don’t have to make that call.
2. We are not lost to Hell because we were not baptized. We are lost to Hell because we denied God. We are condemned because we sin. And the only way back into right relationship with God is through Christ
3. And since Scripture is God’s instruction to us, and since He says that we connect with the the blood of Christ and are cleansed through the washing of Water by the Word, then yes, I would have to judge that the pedestrian who is struck and killed on his way to be baptized would still be condemned to Hell.

That is why I (as the Apostles practiced) always baptize someone who comes to belief in Christ IMMEDIATELY. I don’t let them go delay.

As I understand you, you hold to a form of conditional OSAS predicated upon faith plus baptism. It is conditional in that one can be lost if, and when, he ceases to "walk in the light". Am I correct in thinking this?

 

[Doug Brents]

As I understand you, you hold to a form of conditional OSAS predicated upon faith plus baptism. It is conditional in that one can be lost if, and when, he ceases to "walk in the light". Am I correct in thinking this?

Close, but not entirely.

Faith is NOT the same as belief. It goes further than belief in that it produces action. If there is no action, then there is no faith (James 2:26). The thing that we have to do is determine from Scripture what actions are required and which are not, which come before the moment of salvation and which flows out of a saved heart.
There are several passages that say something leads to salvation:
Rom 10:9-10 - believe and confess Jesus’ name
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized
Mark 16:16 - believe and be baptized
Acts 3:19 - repent
There are others that say similar things, but the point is made with these.
Everything else follows after, and flows out of, a saved heart.

But then, as you pointed out, if a person ceases to obey Christ, and falls into unrepentant sin, that person can lose that salvation. The blood of Jesus only continually cleanses our sin if we are trying to walk in His Light, trying to live by His commands (Rom 6:1-2).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Close, but not entirely.

Faith is NOT the same as belief. It goes further than belief in that it produces action. If there is no action, then there is no faith (James 2:26). The thing that we have to do is determine from Scripture what actions are required and which are not, which come before the moment of salvation and which flows out of a saved heart.
There are several passages that say something leads to salvation:
Rom 10:9-10 - believe and confess Jesus’ name
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized
Mark 16:16 - believe and be baptized
Acts 3:19 - repent
There are others that say similar things, but the point is made with these.
Everything else follows after, and flows out of, a saved heart.

But then, as you pointed out, if a person ceases to obey Christ, and falls into unrepentant sin, that person can lose that salvation. The blood of Jesus only continually cleanses our sin if we are trying to walk in His Light, trying to live by His commands (Rom 6:1-2).

I am puzzled. I never mentioned belief in my post. What made you think I conflate belief with faith?

 

[Doug Brents]

I am puzzled. I never mentioned belief in my post. What made you think I conflate belief with faith?

You said faith plus baptism. Baptism is part of faith. Without belief, and repentance, and confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism; you don’t have saving faith.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You said faith plus baptism. Baptism is part of faith. Without belief, and repentance, and confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism; you don’t have saving faith.

As is church attendance, communion, tithing, eating, sleeping, doing good things, staying out of mischief, etc., etc., etc. Where does faith end?

 

[Doug Brents]

As is church attendance, communion, tithing, eating, sleeping, doing good things, staying out of mischief, etc., etc., etc. Where does faith end?

The actions you list are all actions of faith that flow FROM salvation (a saved soul). Yes, faith must st continue for the rest of a person’s life, and there are many actions of faith that that are a part of that.

Repentance, confession of Jesus’ name, and baptism are the only actions of faith that the Bible says LEAD TO salvation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The actions you list are all actions of faith that flow FROM salvation (a saved soul). Yes, faith must st continue for the rest of a person’s life, and there are many actions of faith that that are a part of that.

Repentance, confession of Jesus’ name, and baptism are the only actions of faith that the Bible says LEAD TO salvation.

I have great pity for those who believe and confess but, for reasons beyond their control, end up in hell because they were not baptized.