How can baptism be required for salvation?

[BNR32FAN]

You are correct. This is somewhat perplexing to myself in light of the fact that many trinitarian baptisms are expressly believed to be non-sacramental and non-salvific. This flies fully in the face of Catholic doctrine. However, even the Orthodox baptismal rite is radically different from Catholic beliefs in that the Orthodox fully reject the concept of inherited sin from Adam.

Its my understanding that the EOC do support the concept that we did inherit Adam’s sinful nature but not the guilt of Adam’s sin. Instead we are guilty of our own sins not the sin Adam committed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Its my understanding that the EOC do support the concept that we did inherit Adam’s sinful nature but not the guilt of Adam’s sin. Instead we are guilty of our own sins not the sin Adam committed.

That is correct. Therefore, the understanding of baptism in the EOC is significantly different than that of the RCC. The RCC clearly believes that baptism removes the stain (or guilt) of Adam's sin. Hence, they assert that the sin(s) of the unwitting infant are forgiven through the sacrament of baptism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is correct. Therefore, the understanding of baptism in the EOC is significantly different than that of the RCC. The RCC clearly believes that baptism removes the stain (or guilt) of Adam's sin. Hence, they assert that the sin(s) of the unwitting infant are forgiven through the sacrament of baptism.

Amen I agree.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, baptism is not required for salvation else people who for some reason cannot get baptized after accepting Christ that act would be negated by simple lack of water. The thief on the cross was saved according to Jesus.

The thief in the cross was pardoned (thus saved) before Christ died. Therefore he was still under the Old Covenant. He is not applicable to a discussion of New Covenant salvation.

Your point about lack of water precludes the idea that we are naturally supposed to be saved. We are not. We are naturally condemned because we have all forsaken God and sinned. Salvation requires a living faith, and faith is dead unless it causes obedient action (James 2:26).

 

[Doug Brents]

God requires faith for healing but when did it have to be the faith of the one healed?

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved.”
This doesn’t say that someone else can believe and be baptized for you. Only the one who believe and is baptized will be saved.

“… whoever believes on Him will be saved.” Not whoever has someone else believe for him. No, only the one who believes (has faith).

There are many more. And no where in Scripture does it say (or even hint ) that one person can believe for another person and the other person be saved.

 

[Eloy Craft]

That

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved.”
This doesn’t say that someone else can believe and be baptized for you. Only the one who believe and is baptized will be saved.

“… whoever believes on Him will be saved.” Not whoever has someone else believe for him. No, only the one who believes (has faith).

There are many more. And no where in Scripture does it say (or even hint ) that one person can believe for another person and the other person be saved.

That scripture doesn't prove your point. Just means the Baptized must believe to be saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

That

That scripture doesn't prove your point. Just means the Baptized must believe to be saved.

It means that the one being saved is the one who believes. I cannot believe for you. You will not be saved because of my belief. Only the one who believes can be saved (during baptism).

If you are baptized but don’t believe, you aren’t saved; you just got wet.
Jon f you believe but are not baptized, you never contact the cleansing blood of Christ, are not buried with Him, and so are not born again as a new creation.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Baptize the baby.Cleanse it's soul from the original sin The child will have faith oF it's own before it's three. A child will believe what it's parents believe.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Baptize the baby.Cleanse it's soul from the original sin The child will have faith oF it's own before it's three. A child will believe what it's parents believe.

Wishful thinking, indeed. There are innumerable baptized individuals who grew to adulthood, rejecting all that their parents believed. Belief is not genetic.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Wishful thinking, indeed. There are innumerable baptized individuals who grew to adulthood, rejecting all that their parents believed. Belief is not genetic.

So....we are discussing infants

 

[bbbbbbb]

So....we are discussing infants

We are indeed. The same infants who you allege will inherit the faith of their parents and grow into fine, upstanding Christians.

 

[Doug Brents]

Baptize the baby.Cleanse it's soul from the original sin The child will have faith oF it's own before it's three. A child will believe what it's parents believe.

I have never heard of anyone actually BAPTIZING a baby. They sprinkle or pour a little water over the baby, but they never baptize it.

But to the point, “baptizing” a baby does absolutely nothing other than getting the baby wet. The baby has no faith, because the baby does not believe, because the baby has not heard or understood the Gospel; and if there is no belief there can be no forgiveness of sin.

 

[Tigger45]

I have never heard of anyone actually BAPTIZING a baby. They sprinkle or pour a little water over the baby, but they never baptize it.

But to the point, “baptizing” a baby does absolutely nothing other than getting the baby wet. The baby has no faith, because the baby does not believe, because the baby has not heard or understood the Gospel; and if there is no belief there can be no forgiveness of sin.

Well this video ought to break you in real good then.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I have never heard of anyone actually BAPTIZING a baby. They sprinkle or pour a little water over the baby, but they never baptize it.

But to the point, “baptizing” a baby does absolutely nothing other than getting the baby wet. The baby has no faith, because the baby does not believe, because the baby has not heard or understood the Gospel; and if there is no belief there can be no forgiveness of sin.

Every Christian was wrong then untill recently? The Gospel according to who?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Every Christian was wrong then untill recently? The Gospel according to who?

Every? There are always exceptions and one does not need to look far to find them.

Recently? In historic terms Christianity is a recent religion, unlike others such as Hinduism, Zorastrianism, or Bhuddism. How recent is "recently"?

How you do define the Gospel?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Every? There are always exceptions and one does not need to look far to find them.

Recently? In historic terms Christianity is a recent religion, unlike others such as Hinduism, Zorastrianism, or Bhuddism. How recent is "recently"?

How you do define the Gospel?

The Gospel is the Deposit of Faith. The Public revelation. Plus the authentic development of faith.
I was referring to a few centuries ago as recent.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Gospel is the Deposit of Faith. The Public revelation. Plus the authentic development of faith.
I was referring to a few centuries ago as recent.

Thanks. I assume, therefore, that the Deposit of Faith is that which has been entrusted to all who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Thanks. I assume, therefore, that the Deposit of Faith is that which has been entrusted to all who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, to be entrusted requires authority over what is entrusted. Not all who call on the name are given that mission. Paul prepared Timothy for that duty and authority. A supernatural charism to accomplish that mission is given by the Holy Spirit as well.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, to be entrusted requires authority over what is entrusted. Not all who call on the name are given that mission. Paul prepared Timothy for that duty and authority. A supernatural charism to accomplish that mission is given by the Holy Spirit as well.

I see. Then I suppose the Deposit of Faith (i.e. the Gospel) is limited, as you understand it, to your particular denomination. That comes as no surprise to me.

 

[Eloy Craft]

It's not an opinion so much as a historical reality that has been happening since the Apostles.
Ir makes sense to me that the laying on of hands is the conduit of the Holy Spirit to pass down the tools necessary. So Apostolic Succession is the conduit.