Holocaust Theology

[Guide To The Bible]

OK - are you saying that based on how his life ended (suicide) or are you saying that based on the other things he did?

Here's a question for everyone: suppose that Adolf Hitler had repented a real, Biblical, repentance. Would God have forgiven him?

Firstly he never committed suicide, all the evidence shows that he fled to Argentina and died in the early 60's. He also never professed a genuine Christian belief. If he went to heaven then no one would be in hell.

 

[Heber Book List]

I'm interested in knowing. The problem of evil is an interesting subject and I think that God's lack of intervention in some circumstances should lead us to really think alot about theology.

As far as my personal position, I find that many people deny totally that the Holocaust could be the wrath of God, which I think is irresponsible, based upon the Bible. I think that the only responsible answer is that we don't know for sure. I think that's really the only responsible answer to any calamitous event. Certainly calamitous events do happen in Scripture and they are mentioned as the wrath and the judgment of God. This doesn't mean that all calamitous events are, but it certainly might mean that they are. I think the only responsible answer is that we don't know for sure.

Read: Hick, J. Evil and the G_d of love This is an excellent book on the issues, written when the author was a sound evangelical. He died in the past year or so.

 

[Heber Book List]

Firstly he never committed suicide, all the evidence shows that he fled to Argentina and died in the early 60's. He also never professed a genuine Christian belief. If he went to heaven then no one would be in hell.

He made initial overall policy and, later, permitted and encouraged a lot of things that his minions wanted to do, but he never actually did them, as far as we know, and often did not want to know the details, either. It is also true that, early on. he tried to put the lid on the street brutality of the party members, but when that failed he turned a blind eye to it and left his minions to 'discipline' the men which, of course, they couldn't do because it had got out of hand and spread across the nation.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

He made initial overall policy and, later, permitted and encouraged a lot of things that his minions wanted to do, but he never actually did them, as far as we know, and often did not want to know the details, either. It is also true that, early on. he tried to put the lid on the street brutality of the party members, but when that failed he turned a blind eye to it and left his minions to 'discipline' the men which, of course, they couldn't do because it had got out of hand and spread across the nation.

In other words he facilitated its beginning and was complicit in his lack to stand against it. Evil genius.

Edit: Evil idiot.

 

[Heber Book List]

In other words he facilitated its beginning and was complicit in his lack to stand against it. Evil genius.

Edit: Evil idiot.

His biggest error was not taking effective control at the very beginning. Originally he just wanted the Jews out of Germany (and many left) and then, later on, he wanted them exterminated, no doubt in compliance with the desires of some of the murderers with whom he had allowed himself to be surrounded. A number of his so called inner circle were known to be mis-fits, like him, and just outright criminals, who played on his desire to be more that just a convicted, mediocre, unemployed corporal.

Interestingly, he never, as far as we know, took on any rank in the armed services, as many of the elite politicians had when they ran Germany. He ruled by fear, not authority.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

His biggest error was not taking effective control at the very beginning. Originally he just wanted the Jews out of Germany (and many left) and then, later on, he wanted them exterminated, no doubt in compliance with the desires of some of the murderers with whom he had allowed himself to be surrounded. A number of his so called inner circle were known to be mis-fits, like him, and just outright criminals, who played on his desire to be more that just a convicted, mediocre, unemployed corporal.

Interestingly, he never, as far as we know, took on any rank in the armed services, as many of the elite politicians had when they ran Germany. He ruled by fear, not authority.

Yep, he was a skilled orator and had a following but he lack many leadership qualities and his heart was very evil. He basically road a wave of popular nationalist feeling that something needed to change in Germany and his views happened to match what the people thought they needed at that time.

 

[Heber Book List]

Yep, he was a skilled orator and had a following but he lack many leadership qualities and his heart was very evil. He basically road a wave of popular nationalist feeling that something needed to change in Germany and his views happened to match what the people thought they needed at that time.

"He basically road a wave of popular nationalist feeling that something needed to change... and his views happened to match what the people thought they needed at that time"

Where have we heard this bit in recent times? (I am not wanting to derail the thread - this is a rhetorical question!)

 

[Guide To The Bible]

"He basically road a wave of popular nationalist feeling that something needed to change... and his views happened to match what the people thought they needed at that time"

Where have we heard this bit in recent times? (I am not wanting to derail the thread - this is a rhetorical question!)

Well that analogy has been applied to more leaders and people than I've had hot dinners. I would try to assess each leader on the merits and faults they bring to the table. History will tell and God will be the judge.

 

[Dave-W]

Where are your sources for the seance/black arts deal?

I have known about this for decades. I am currently reading a book by Presby pastor Rev. Z. Bradford Long "Discerning the Times" where he lists a lot of sources, including occult dealings of Kaiser Wilhelm (WW1) which I did NOT know about. If you are interested, get the book and read chapter 15.

 

[Heber Book List]

I have known about this for decades. I am currently reading a book by Presby pastor Rev. Z. Bradford Long "Discerning the Times" where he lists a lot of sources, including occult dealings of Kaiser Wilhelm (WW1) which I did NOT know about. If you are interested, get the book and read chapter 15.

I know Brad Long - met him a few years ago, and Paul Stokes, who works with him, trained alongside me in Cambridge, UK, 20+ years ago. What a small world.

 

[Dave-W]

I know Brad Long - met him a few years ago, and Paul Stokes, who works with him, trained alongside me in Cambridge, UK, 20+ years ago. What a small world.

Small world indeed. I am the person responsible for connecting Long with the Messianic Jewish movement. I have been involved peripherally with his organization PRMI for close to 30 years.

 

[Heber Book List]

I would commend, again:

Goldhagen, Daniel, J. Hitler's Willing Executioners - Ordinary Germans and The Holocaust Abacus, London. 2008 (PB)

as a well researched book giving far more detail than the average Holocaust book, on the ways in which many ordinary Germans willingly took on the battle to wipe out those who were Germany's 'Jewish Problem', from the early days to the end.

 

[Ken Rank]

Even if this is the case, the problem now is that a large proportion of the Jewish population are now agnostic or atheistic, due to the Holocaust.

Yes, that is unfortunate. And not to turn this into a political thing, but many that aren't atheist are extremely liberal. Have you ever wondered why the American Jews (even the practicing ones) are SO liberal when the Torah (and even Talmud) are so conservative? Since most elected leaders who are Christian are conservative, they do not want in authority over them any Christians so they vote in opposition to them which means going liberal.

So, we have a double epistemoligical whammy to consider, then. They are estranged from their own Sacred Faith, in addition to the interpretive framework(s) of the New Testament writers and earliest Church Fathers.

Agreed, though many do practice and when I write, just so you know, if I am talking "Jewish people" I tend to be writing about those practicing and if not I will specify.

Anyway, I'm not even sure what we're haggling over here. Jewish people are human beings and need to hear the Gospel too, regardless, right?

We're not... we're just two people having a decent conversation. In light of some of the drama and strife we often see around us, I find that refreshing so thanks! And yes... though I tend to see the Jews coming to the door but perhaps not exactly in the same manner we do. That isn't saying anything other than we all go through the same door but I think some have different paths to get to it. I won't comment further on that here, on this site, but would privately.

But, you're definitely right about the changes in interpretive framework that the centuries have brought about, Ken.

The paradigm/perspective/lens we are born-into is a strong one. Being able to see outside of it, I believe, is imperative.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

I can shun your views then , since you so desire others to shun you.
As you wish.

You have entirely misunderstood what I am saying. I am NOT saying, thinking, or feeling that we should shun everyone. I have made a point... that a person within the Jewish religion is not required to develop a deep enough understanding of the Christian religion in order to determine whether or not you, me, or Hitler was or wasn't a good Christian. It isn't their responsibility... just as it is not my responsibility to learn enough about Islam to determine who is and isn't a good Muslim. I don't care who is or isn't a good Muslim... I care about making sure I am walking on the path my God desires of me, so that, when the opportunity is presented, I can give an answer/reason for the hope of my calling. That could be to a Muslim, a Jew, or an atheist that was raised in a Christian home. This has nothing to do with shunning anyone, EVER.

 

[Ken Rank]

If that is the case, then it's a total misunderstanding of New Testament theology. There is no command to go and kill Jews in the New Testament. So if people equate Hitler with Christianity, then they're just deliberately misrepresenting the New Testament.

As far as Hitler considering himself a Christian, I'd like to know your sources for such views. Also, do you believe that "considering yourself a Christian" makes you representative of Christianity?

I don't disagree... but if the Jewish person does not read the NT (why would or should they??) then they are not aware of what is or is not commanded. Therefore, they are not in a position to have any ability to judge what does or does not represent Christ. As for Hitler, it is common knowledge that he considered himself a Catholic, and whether or not you consider a Catholic a Christian... again... the Jewish person is not required to discern the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

 

[FireDragon76]

Most Jews in the US are "liberal" because they were immigrants and Democrats in the 20th century were historically the party of immigrants.

The Jewish interpretation of the Torah is not necessarily conservative, and Judaism has never been monolithic in that sense, especially since the Enlightenment gave considerable freedom to Jews and allowed them to leave the ghettos. One of the largest denominations of religious Jews in the US are Conservatives, and they take a more centrist position that is a balance of respect for traditional interpretations but one that is also sensitive to modern context (which is one reason Conservative Jews in the US no longer condemn gays or lesbians).

 

[Heber Book List]

Most Jews in the US are "liberal" because they were immigrants and Democrats in the 20th century were historically the party of immigrants.

The Jewish interpretation of the Torah is not necessarily conservative, and Judaism has never been monolithic in that sense, especially since the Enlightenment gave considerable freedom to Jews and allowed them to leave the ghettos. One of the largest denominations of religious Jews in the US are Conservatives, and they take a more centrist position that is a balance of respect for traditional interpretations but one that is also sensitive to modern context (which is one reason Conservative Jews in the US no longer condemn gays or lesbians).

They also now want non-Jewish spouses to become a part of the Shul 'membership'. A step too far for many.

 

[Ken Rank]

Most Jews in the US are "liberal" because they were immigrants and Democrats in the 20th century were historically the party of immigrants.

The Jewish interpretation of the Torah is not necessarily conservative, and Judaism has never been monolithic in that sense, especially since the Enlightenment gave considerable freedom to Jews and allowed them to leave the ghettos. One of the largest denominations of religious Jews in the US are Conservatives, and they take a more centrist position that is a balance of respect for traditional interpretations but one that is also sensitive to modern context (which is one reason Conservative Jews in the US no longer condemn gays or lesbians).

I don't disagree but I think perhaps there is a bit of over generalization. While you are correct that most US are sons and grandsons of immigrants, I don't think you are taking which sect they might be part of into consideration. The Chassidic and Orthodox most certainly interpret Scripture conservatively, and I agree that most Conservatives are centrists. However, that is mainly because in places where there are no Orthodox synagogues, you generally find Conservative and/or Reformed ones. So they will have people within their groups that don't necessarily fit the ideological mold of say the Reformed. The Reformed are pretty much all liberal to the point where I can introduce you to one agnostic and one atheist RABBI. Most Jews who read the Tanach and practice their faith are more conservative than not although that does NOT MEAN they follow that up with a politically conservative leanings. I hit on some reasons, you did... we can both probably add to them.