Holocaust Theology

[Achilles6129]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

 

[Heber Book List]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

What makes you ask?

 

[Ken Rank]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

I don't know if this is something that is coming up in your life but I do want to warn you of something just in case it is.

Hitler considered himself a Christian. It doesn't matter if he might very well have been the worst example in history of a Christian, he considered himself one. And the Jews know this... and since Hitler tried to eradicate Jewish identity through death, then the Jewish view by some Jews, of Christians, is that they see Hitler in you. Why? Because when you come to them with the basic salvation message which includes, "You don't have to do those things that have made you a unique people for so long (i.e. the feasts)," then they see you as trying to rob them of their identity, just like Hitler did. It isn't fair, I recognize this... but it also isn't up to the Jewish people to have to discern whether or not Hitler was a good representation of Christianity or not. And with a history beyond Hitler of forced baptisms and so forth... we are on thin ice from the get-go.

 

[Dave-W]

I would agree with Ken. Many of the German prison guards at the death camps in WW2 would take infants by the feet and swing their heads into brick walls (like a baseball bat) saying "In the Name of the Father, In the Name of the Son and In the Name of the Holy Spirit."

The earlier pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe were at the directive of the Russian and Greek orthodox churches.

Coupled with that is the idea in many (most) churches that if you become a Christian you MUST cease being a Jew. (replacement theology) so "converting" to Christianity is seen as an insult to and a weakening of the Jewish community.

 

[Dave-W]

Hitler considered himself a Christian.

Publicly he claimed that; but he regularly attended seances and other black-arts gatherings, and only rarely attended a church service.

 

[Heber Book List]

I would agree with Ken. Many of the German prison guards at the death camps in WW2 would take infants by the feet and swing their heads into brick walls (like a baseball bat) saying "In the Name of the Father, In the Name of the Son and In the Name of the Holy Spirit."

The earlier pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe were at the directive of the Russian and Greek orthodox churches.

Coupled with that is the idea in many (most) churches that if you become a Christian you MUST cease being a Jew. (replacement theology) so "converting" to Christianity is seen as an insult to and a weakening of the Jewish community.

Where did you find the quote, that ends with the section in inverted commas, in your first paragraph?

 

[Dave-W]

Reports from holocaust survivors who witnessed it first hand. I have talked to a few.

 

[Heber Book List]

I'm not aware of any documented evidence of that claim - that's why I asked.

 

[Ken Rank]

Publicly he claimed that; but he regularly attended seances and other black-arts gatherings, and only rarely attended a church service.

Not the point... historically he is listed as Christian, his tombstone states the same. To SOME Jewish people who have lived through that horror... who are NOT Christians... why do they have to learn to discern whether Hitler truly represented Christianity or not? That is my only point... to SOME Jews, whose job is not to decide on our walk... they can view us like this, especially overly evangelical Christians. But, I see on this point we agree anyway.

 

[Heber Book List]

Where, O where, is the OP? Questions not being answered!

 

[Anguspure]

I'm not aware of any documented evidence of that claim - that's why I asked.

The witnesses to these things have said many things about what they saw and experienced that are perhaps unsupported by documentary evidence. But as @Ken Rank has observed, it is the experiential perspective of these people that should be considered and respected and the "supporting" documentation be given a secondary role, if we are to discuss something so deeply painful as the holocaust.

I do not wish to accuse you of doing so (although I have encountered it), but to be honest I consider the denial of an event as it has been relayed by the people that were there, because some scribe failed to document things, a bit nauseating.

We should always remember that as beleivers in the ressurection we also trust the undocumented (supporting documentation that is) story of those who experienced something.

 

[Anguspure]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

It would be as talking about the problem of evil and suffering with anybody else who is deeply emotionally connected with the issue.

Perhaps, as for the friends of Job, it is we who should be listening and the survivor who is allowed to talk.

Theories about God that may in fact be correct enough as they stand are probably quite unhelpful, words themselves are probably trite.

It is probable that only the deep Love of people who live and walk in the footsteps of the One who lives this horror every day, forsaking their own lives to bring Shalom shabat will earn the right to say something to a Holocaust survivor about the nature of God.

 

[Ken Rank]

The witnesses to these things have said many things about what they saw and experienced that are perhaps unsupported by documentary evidence. But as @Ken Rank has observed, it is the experiential perspective of these people that should be considered and respected and the "supporting" documentation be given a secondary role, if we are to discuss something so deeply painful as the holocaust.

I do not wish to accuse you of doing so (although I have encountered it), but to be honest I consider the denial of an event as it has been relayed by the people that were there, because some scribe failed to document things, a bit nauseating.

We should always remember that as beleivers in the ressurection we also trust the undocumented (supporting documentation that is) story of those who experienced something.

That is a real good addition to other thoughts shared but if I may add even to these? On top of everything said, there is also a slight anti-Judaic bias in the Christian culture. I say, "anti-Judaic" rather than "anti-Semitic" because there are others who are Semitic that aren't Jewish. Anyway.... most Christian denominations view the Jews (as a whole) as having denied Yeshua as messiah. This isn't true, Acts 21:20 uses the word "murias" where you see "many thousands," and murias is the word for 10,000, but in this verse it is in plural form. The verse is literally saying that no less than 20,000+ Jews of the 80,000 who lived in and around Jerusalem at that time, believed Yeshua was messiah and remained zealous for the Law. But since we have the perception that the Jews denied Yeshua AND because we have early Christian writers (Justin Martyr being a prime example) who referred to Jews as, "Christ Killers," then we have, over time, built upon that paradigm. And as such we are willing to accept the Jew who accepts Christ but condemn and disassociate with the Jew who does not. We seem to have far more patience with the drunkard who beats his wife than we do a Jew who does not see Yeshua as messiah.

I find this ironic because in the first century, it was the Jews who would not fellowship with the gentiles unless they converted. We have turned those tables and aimed that line of thinking at the Jews.

 

[Heber Book List]

The witnesses to these things have said many things about what they saw and experienced that are perhaps unsupported by documentary evidence. But as @Ken Rank has observed, it is the experiential perspective of these people that should be considered and respected and the "supporting" documentation be given a secondary role, if we are to discuss something so deeply painful as the holocaust.

I do not wish to accuse you of doing so (although I have encountered it), but to be honest I consider the denial of an event as it has been relayed by the people that were there, because some scribe failed to document things, a bit nauseating.

We should always remember that as beleivers in the ressurection we also trust the undocumented (supporting documentation that is) story of those who experienced something.

I asked because I am the complete opposite of that which you almost accused me. Your reply would be a perfectly good response had it addressed what I said. I didn't ask for documentary evidence. I said that I have not seen any documented evidence ie nothing written down about those events happening, as told by the victims over the past 70 or so years. There is a subtle, but important, distinction in those two - the latter being an acknowledgement that I, personally, have not seen any record of those things of which you wrote. Given the massive pile of papers that are Holocaust Studies, that should not be too surprising!

 

[Heber Book List]

It would be as talking about the problem of evil and suffering with anybody else who is deeply emotionally connected with the issue.

Perhaps, as for the friends of Job, it is we who should be listening and the survivor who is allowed to talk.

Theories about God that may in fact be correct enough as they stand are probably quite unhelpful, words themselves are probably trite.

It is probable that only the deep Love of people who live and walk in the footsteps of the One who lives this horror every day, forsaking their own lives to bring Shalom shabat will earn the right to say something to a Holocaust survivor about the nature of God.

In a nutshell - refer them to their (or a) Rabbi. It really is not for the untrained to deal with these issues of such horrendous magnitude in the lives of HaShoah victims. So much harm can be afflicted by how we might respond in explaining a 'Christian' theodicy of the events, that we would be well advised to act in proportion to our G_d given endowments: we have two ears and just one mouth. If used in that proportion we might get by without causing offence

 

[Anguspure]

I asked because I am the complete opposite of that which you almost accused me. Your reply would be a perfectly good response had it addressed what I said. I didn't ask for documentary evidence. I said that I have not seen any documented evidence ie nothing written down about those events happening, as told by the victims over the past 70 or so years. There is a subtle, but important, distinction in those two - the latter being an acknowledgement that I, personally, have not seen any record of those things of which you wrote. Given the massive pile of papers that are Holocaust Studies, that should not be too surprising!

I apologise for the threat, I do not wish to offend you, so please forgive me, I have a very close friend who's family lost everything in this piece of history, and is denied her acknowledgement on similar grounds. Such is the nature of the beast.

 

[Heber Book List]

I apologise for the threat, I do not wish to offend you, so please forgive me, I have a very close friend who's family lost everything in this piece of history, and is denied her acknowledgement on similar grounds. Such is the nature of the beast.

Thank you for your apology which is readily accepted, and forgiveness abounds It is a subject that is fraught with emotion and many, many pitfalls for the unwary - that is why I word my posts on the subject very, very carefully.

Two books you (and others) might find interesting:

Goldhagen, D.J. Hitler's Willing Executioners - Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust (Abacus, London UK) 1997 (PB). 631pp in total incl. extensive notes.

Friedman, S.S. A History of the Holocaust (Vallentine Mitchell, Middlesex UK) 2004 (PB). 494pp in total incl. extensive notes.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't know if this is something that is coming up in your life but I do want to warn you of something just in case it is.

Hitler considered himself a Christian. It doesn't matter if he might very well have been the worst example in history of a Christian, he considered himself one. And the Jews know this... and since Hitler tried to eradicate Jewish identity through death, then the Jewish view by some Jews, of Christians, is that they see Hitler in you. Why? Because when you come to them with the basic salvation message which includes, "You don't have to do those things that have made you a unique people for so long (i.e. the feasts)," then they see you as trying to rob them of their identity, just like Hitler did. It isn't fair, I recognize this... but it also isn't up to the Jewish people to have to discern whether or not Hitler was a good representation of Christianity or not. And with a history beyond Hitler of forced baptisms and so forth... we are on thin ice from the get-go.

So, if Hitler qualifies as a Christian, then I guess Social Darwinism in all of it's varieties and extremes is compatible with Biblical teaching. Does anyone besides me see a problem here?

Just a thought posed as a question; one that I might pose to a Jewish interlocutor.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

I would probably ask them if they'd be willing to philosophically discuss the following article, written by Jewish Academician, Richard L. Rubenstein.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think the way in which Hitler resonated with Christians (and not really qualified as one) was his stance on the patriarchy, strong family values, and being an anti-feminist as taught in the bible. He was against homosexuality and a lot of the "filth" that Christians also find objectionable.

A lot of folks have associated Hitler with the antichrist and it's ironic because the ones he persecuted are anti-christ by definition. If you don't believe me, try wishing a jewish person merry christmas and be prepared to defend yourself. "Happy Holidays" is no viable substitution either.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

John 8:37-44

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Did Jesus pull a "Hitler" and ad hominem an entire group of people? A blanket condemnation? Does that answer the question of where God was on that day of beautiful Polish sky? Do we condemn God for allowing such atrocity to a people he, apparently, already condemned for killing his only Son?

John 19:6-16

6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

So who is anti-christ?

The Jews believed they could not kill Jesus by their own hand. They had to get the Romans to do it because they believed the blood would not be on their hands. It seems that may have been an erroneous assumption.

So, I would say to the jewish survivor, "Did you cry out for Jesus to save you? For it is written that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." After which I would call upon Jesus to save me from the flogging that would invariably follow.

That is one way to understand the issues involved here. However, I think you may be missing some details that might govern how we treat our Jewish friends, so I'm going to have to go with the Heinrich Grüber approach rather than yours. Jewish people are, like you and me, human beings and should be recognized as such, even if their cultural assumptions and misapplications of the Oracles of Scripture have kept them somewhat obstinate and/or stiff-necked at times against their Messiah.

As to Hitler, he was an extreme "Social Darwinist" and was, in my view, disqualified from being a Christian way before he ever became Chancellor of Germany. I'm sure the "Confessing Church" in Germany, which had to deal with his un-Christian policies during the time of the Nazi Purge and World War II, would have agreed.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid