Holocaust Theology

2PhiloVoid

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I would agree with that, it isn't our job. We have two entirely separate religions at this point. Even if Christianity came out of Judaism and was viewed as a sect of Judaism in the first century and until about 1/3rd of the way through the 2nd, we still have been apart from what are really brothers for almost 1900 years. Since then, rabbis changed the face of Judaism, decrees passed by early counsels were done deliberately to distance ourselves from our Jewish roots and we have built upon those decrees as more time passed... I don't think it is up to either to judge the other in that regard. And because of the divisions through denominations we see even with Christianity, I would suggest brother, that our authority rests within our local congregations UNLESS we see a brother who is either about to stumble or about to cause others to stumble. I am just not sure how far we can go without encroaching on the authority of other elders and pastors beyond that.

Unfortunately though, many have tried to force. We have a historical record of forced baptisms, the forcing of eating unclean meats, and even death in the name of Jesus over the lack of acceptance of Jesus (sounds like how some in Islam currently act) and it makes it hard to overcome the paradigm that Jews are born into regarding us.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think the best witness we have is our walk. Paul wrote that in everything we do in word or deed we are to do it in the name of Yeshua. "Name of" to a Hebrew like Paul...meant in the authority of... or in the character and reputation of. So brother, factor in the Great Commission. The "Go!" isn't in command form... it is a passive participle, it is "going." The idea is, "as you are going, teach." The "teach" is in command form but we first have to go, live, and reflect the Lord in our words and deeds and when anyone, Jewish or not, asks questions because they see him in our words and deeds, then we have a willing student and can fulfill the Great Commission.

I don't think Hitler was...he might have THOUGHT he was but so do Arian white Supremacists and KKK members. I am simply saying that the Jews no more are responsible for knowing if Hitler was or wasn't as you are able to judge if Bin Laden was a good representation of all of Islam.

I understand that we can't expect Jewish people to simply recognize Jesus as Lord, and that it wouldn't be fully rational either for us to expect them to clearly understand that Hitler, and his ugly army, wasn't Christian; I also understand that it is the Lord who has to play a part in their individual, epistemic recognition, their calling, and their salvation--He has the greater part, we the Church have the lesser.

However, Hitler was not a Christian and had little of the same beliefs, theology, or philosophical understanding that--I'm sure--you and I mostly share in Christ. So, please forgive me, but among my several philosophical and theological commitments, one of these is to knock down common assertions that Hitler counts as a Christian in nearly any capacity, other than that he darkened the doors of churches at times during his life (emphasize the term "darkened"). We have a right in Christ, and an obligation to our Lord's Truth, to do so, even if it turns out that it was the Lord who allowed Hitler to run amok in Europe as a punishment and/or test for everyone involved.

In addition to this, discernment as to the nature of who is a True Prophet or even a True Christian is an important implication in the whole of Biblical teaching; it is something all of us are supposed to be cultivating day by day, whether we are Jewish or Christian. This notion is supported by principles in the Old Testament and by principles in the New Testament, and it is something we are all to do, even if we are to do so slowly, wisely, patiently, compassionately and without bitterness between ourselves.

Also, I moderately disagree with the point about our not asserting that we should at least make some "judgements" about fellow brethren, even between denominations and/or factions, or other historical divisions among the people(s) of God. Paul and Peter did, and they admonished us to grow in wisdom so as to do likewise. So, even though we are to be Ecumenical and affirm each other in the Lord, that doesn't mean that we adopt some laissez–faire approach to the whole of faith.

However, I do agree with you about the fact the Great Commission implies we Gentiles are also to "go to all nations," which would include going to our Jewish spiritual cousins who do not yet believe due to their ongoing interpretive framework of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings; for they are but one step away from accepting their unrecognized Messiah. They are just ... one ... step ... away! Just one.

Respectfully. (And of course, even if I disagree on a few points with you, I think you're a brilliant brother, and I'll definitely keep you on my "Who I'm Following" List. ) :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I would agree with that, it isn't our job. We have two entirely separate religions at this point. Even if Christianity came out of Judaism and was viewed as a sect of Judaism in the first century and until about 1/3rd of the way through the 2nd, we still have been apart from what are really brothers for almost 1900 years. Since then, rabbis changed the face of Judaism, decrees passed by early counsels were done deliberately to distance ourselves from our Jewish roots and we have built upon those decrees as more time passed... I don't think it is up to either to judge the other in that regard. And because of the divisions through denominations we see even with Christianity, I would suggest brother, that our authority rests within our local congregations UNLESS we see a brother who is either about to stumble or about to cause others to stumble. I am just not sure how far we can go without encroaching on the authority of other elders and pastors beyond that.
Yes, you're right about how rabbis changed the face of Judaism. That is a good point for us to recognize. I notice that Elliott N. Dorff (Jewish Rabbi/Philosopher) made the same point in his book, Knowing God.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Ken Rank

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Yes, you're right about how rabbis changed the face of Judaism. That is a good point for us to recognize. I notice that Elliott N. Dorff (Jewish Rabbi/Philosopher) made the same point in his book, Knowing God.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
Hadn't read it... busy next few days and then traveling for the next week. Will try to catch up with the other post later. If I don't get to it please remind me. Thanks and be blessed.
 
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SkyWriting

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I am not sure which question you are asking, how "it also isn't up to the Jewish people to have to discern whether or not Hitler was a good representation of Christianity or not" or if you are asking about Matthew 7:12? So, I will cover both. :) As for Hitler, even though Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, it deviated onto it's own separate path after the bar Kokhba revolt of 132CE. So, since then it truly has been its own religion. It has similarities and ties, even to the point of us being called, "Judaeo-Christian" but it has certainly had it's own path. As such, most Jews just don't give it any thought, it isn't on their radar unless you are handing out tracts to them or their kids trying to save them. Thus, it is NOT THEIR JOB to understand what is and is not considered Christian ethics. It isn't their religion. How much does the average Christian know about Buddhism? Very little! What make a good Buddhist a good Buddhist? Most Christians can't answer.. just as most Jews can't tell you what makes a good Christian a good Christian. So, is the Jew expected to know if Hitler really represented what we believe? No... not their job just as it isn't our job to study and know if Bin Laden was a good Muslim.

As for Matthew 7:12... love is the essence of Torah. Yeshua said to love God and neighbor and that "upon these two hang all the Torah and Prophets." So the Torah has as its foundation, love.

Well, I disagree. It is the task of every person to understand others.
No matter if they do or don't read the Torah that is summarized
here:-----> Matthew 7:12
It really is the only job.

Do people do this? It seems they don't. I have never heard
a sermon on the value of Matthew 7:12.
That's why I bother to bring it up when contemplating everything.
 
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FireDragon76

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It's a bit too simplistic to say that Hitler or the Nazis were not Christian. As someone who has done a bit of reading on the Christian churches in Germany around that time period, I know that's just not true. The truth is, Christianity in Germany was corrupted due to an admixture of liberal theology, nationalism, and simplistic moral theology focused on obedience to authority, partly stemming from a medieval Catholic and Lutheran past. So, they were corrupted Christians.
 
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Ken Rank

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Well, I disagree. It is the task of every person to understand others.
No matter if they do or don't read the Torah that is summarized
here:-----> Matthew 7:12
It really is the only job.

Do people do this? It seems they don't. I have never heard
a sermon on the value of Matthew 7:12.
That's why I bother to bring it up when contemplating everything.
So I need to learn about what makes a Muslim a Muslim and then determine if Osama Bin Laden properly represented Islam?

Matthew 7:12 does not, in my opinion, support me needing to learn enough about Islam to determine if Bin Laden was a good one or not. The idea of treating others as I desire to be treated does not cover me needing to learn about other religions UNLESS I have been called to minister to them somehow. Then it would be necessary for me to know where they are in their understanding of their own religion so that I can speak to them on their level and in a way that would have an influence. The average Christian is not called to this... so I fail to see your point, respectfully. Thus, likewise, the average Jew (who generally is not evangelical about their beliefs) does not have to learn the tenets of Christianity and then judge us based on our beliefs. That really just makes no sense to me.
Blessings.
Ken
 
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FireDragon76

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The religious and political conditions of Germany were very similar to the religious conditions of the modern United States. In many ways, the Lutheran establishment supported Hitler in the same way that many conservative evangelicals supported Trump. They did not share all his values, nor did they necessarily consider him "one of the tribe", but they felt that he would champion their cause against perceived cultural decline (the decadence and even nihilism of Weimar Germany, epitomized in works such as Mack the Knife, really offended the theologically liberal, but culturally conservative Lutheran establishment).
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It's a bit too simplistic to say that Hitler or the Nazis were not Christian. As someone who has done a bit of reading on the Christian churches in Germany around that time period, I know that's just not true. The truth is, Christianity in Germany was corrupted due to an admixture of liberal theology, nationalism, and simplistic moral theology focused on obedience to authority, partly stemming from a medieval Catholic and Lutheran past. So, they were corrupted Christians.

Some of the German people of that time might qualify as corrupted Christians, whatever that means, but that's a far cry from including Hitler and his looney-tune entourage into that same definitional matrix. You're not the only one who has studied history of churches, FireDragon, although I won't claim that all my sources exhaust the possible views we might have.

I just wish we could all get off of this Merry-go-round in insisting that Hitler qualified as a Christian. He didn't have right beliefs, and he didn't have right actions, so ... what kind of Christian was he?

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So I need to learn about what makes a Muslim a Muslim and then determine if Osama Bin Laden properly represented Islam?

Matthew 7:12 does not, in my opinion, support me needing to learn enough about Islam to determine if Bin Laden was a good one or not. The idea of treating others as I desire to be treated does not cover me needing to learn about other religions UNLESS I have been called to minister to them somehow. Then it would be necessary for me to know where they are in their understanding of their own religion so that I can speak to them on their level and in a way that would have an influence. The average Christian is not called to this... so I fail to see your point, respectfully. Thus, likewise, the average Jew (who generally is not evangelical about their beliefs) does not have to learn the tenets of Christianity and then judge us based on our beliefs. That really just makes no sense to me.
Blessings.
Ken

I would agree with you, Ken. The only caveat is that I would think that Jewish people should be responsible for exploring and understanding the definitions of faith that exist within their own identity with Abraham and Moses, but as Stan Telchin (of Jews for Jesus) relates in his book, "Betrayed," many Jewish people don't hear or study the entire Law, Prophets and Writings.

In fact, Telchin says that when he was in the process of trying to understand the nature of Christianity (because, as a Jewish person, who was originally under the assumption that Christianity was wrong and maybe evil, he tried to disprove it), and he was pointed to reading Jeremiah 31, Isaiah 53, and Psalm 22. After doing so, he asked himself: "Why had I never seen this before? Why had we never talked about this in my home or in the synagogue?" (pp. 69-70).

So, with what Stan Telchin suggests in his book, we Christians should be encouraging Jews to become very familiar with their own Holy Scriptures.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Ken Rank

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I would agree with you, Ken. The only caveat is that I would think that Jewish people should be responsible for exploring and understanding the definitions of faith that exist within their own identity with Abraham and Moses, but as Stan Telchin (of Jews for Jesus) relates in his book, "Betrayed," many Jewish people don't hear or study the entire Law, Prophets and Writings.

In fact, Telchin says that when he was in the process of trying to understand the nature of Christianity (because, as a Jewish person, who was originally under the assumption that Christianity was wrong and maybe evil, he tried to disprove it), and he was pointed to reading Jeremiah 31, Isaiah 53, and Psalm 22. After doing so, he asked himself: "Why had I never seen this before? Why had we never talked about this in my home or in the synagogue?" (pp. 69-70).

So, with what Stan Telchin suggests in his book, we Christians should be encouraging Jews to become very familiar with their own Holy Scriptures.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
Th problem with this is simply that while in the first century Christianity was most certainly considered a sect of Judaism, after the Bar Kokhba revolt that began in 132AD, it was less than 20 years later that the face of the Christian faith became more Greek than Hebraic. By the early 200's, decrees were passed BOTH by Christianity and Judaism (although more in Christianity) designed only to draw a distinction between the two groups. Once those decrees are accepted, within a generation, the decree becomes part of the lens through which Scripture is interpreted and we begin to build on the decrees just as much as we build on pure Scriptural truth. Throw in 1700-1800 years, and the distance between the two religions becomes so pronounced that there is no denying they are two separate entities. So, those alive today no longer see the connection we once had and therefore, the Jew having to know enough about Pauline Christianity (a term I despise by the way) in order to judge a Christian is truly a kin to me learning enough about Islam to be able to properly judge a Bin Laden (or anyone else) to determine whether or not they represent their religion well enough.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Th problem with this is simply that while in the first century Christianity was most certainly considered a sect of Judaism, after the Bar Kokhba revolt that began in 132AD, it was less than 20 years later that the face of the Christian faith became more Greek than Hebraic. By the early 200's, decrees were passed BOTH by Christianity and Judaism (although more in Christianity) designed only to draw a distinction between the two groups. Once those decrees are accepted, within a generation, the decree becomes part of the lens through which Scripture is interpreted and we begin to build on the decrees just as much as we build on pure Scriptural truth. Throw in 1700-1800 years, and the distance between the two religions becomes so pronounced that there is no denying they are two separate entities. So, those alive today no longer see the connection we once had and therefore, the Jew having to know enough about Pauline Christianity (a term I despise by the way) in order to judge a Christian is truly a kin to me learning enough about Islam to be able to properly judge a Bin Laden (or anyone else) to determine whether or not they represent their religion well enough.

Yes, those are all good points, some of which I was already aware of (but some I wasn't, so thank you for the detail :) ).

Even if this is the case, the problem now is that a large proportion of the Jewish population are now agnostic or atheistic, due to the Holocaust. So, we have a double epistemoligical whammy to consider, then. They are estranged from their own Sacred Faith, in addition to the interpretive framework(s) of the New Testament writers and earliest Church Fathers.

Anyway, I'm not even sure what we're haggling over here. Jewish people are human beings and need to hear the Gospel too, regardless, right? Even Gentiles don't see the 'connections,' so the main concern is in expressing emotional intelligence in trying to communicate with those person who have experienced major traumas in their lives.

But, you're definitely right about the changes in interpretive framework that the centuries have brought about, Ken.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Achilles6129

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What makes you ask?

I'm interested in knowing. The problem of evil is an interesting subject and I think that God's lack of intervention in some circumstances should lead us to really think alot about theology.

As far as my personal position, I find that many people deny totally that the Holocaust could be the wrath of God, which I think is irresponsible, based upon the Bible. I think that the only responsible answer is that we don't know for sure. I think that's really the only responsible answer to any calamitous event. Certainly calamitous events do happen in Scripture and they are mentioned as the wrath and the judgment of God. This doesn't mean that all calamitous events are, but it certainly might mean that they are. I think the only responsible answer is that we don't know for sure.
 
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Achilles6129

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Hitler considered himself a Christian. It doesn't matter if he might very well have been the worst example in history of a Christian, he considered himself one. And the Jews know this... and since Hitler tried to eradicate Jewish identity through death, then the Jewish view by some Jews, of Christians, is that they see Hitler in you.

If that is the case, then it's a total misunderstanding of New Testament theology. There is no command to go and kill Jews in the New Testament. So if people equate Hitler with Christianity, then they're just deliberately misrepresenting the New Testament.

As far as Hitler considering himself a Christian, I'd like to know your sources for such views. Also, do you believe that "considering yourself a Christian" makes you representative of Christianity?
 
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Achilles6129

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I would say being mad at God, or doubtful about him in that circumstance would be OK. It would be ridiculous to ask a survivor to thank God or worship God. Faith is a gift, its not something you can compel or reason somebody into, especially when hey have gone through a trauma like that.

Is that a Biblical response?
 
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Achilles6129

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To even consider or imply in any way, from any point of view, that Hitler went to heaven is absurd.

OK - are you saying that based on how his life ended (suicide) or are you saying that based on the other things he did?

Here's a question for everyone: suppose that Adolf Hitler had repented a real, Biblical, repentance. Would God have forgiven him?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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OK - are you saying that based on how his life ended (suicide) or are you saying that based on the other things he did?

Here's a question for everyone: suppose that Adolf Hitler had repented a real, Biblical, repentance. Would God have forgiven him?

Yes, God would have forgiven him, but typically, someone as entrenched in sin, hate, and violence as Hitler was doesn't turn back to God. In fact, I'd say that Hitler was probably possessed--by something. But, since he's dead now, that's "water under the bridge."

Good question, though!
 
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If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

I would tell the the same thing I'd tell anybody else: That God both commands and deserves our worship and that God allows evil temporarily but will judge sin and punish the unregenerate.

I would then use that as an opportunity to share the Gospel with them by explaining that if God punishes sin then that means He also has to punish our sin and has provided a sacrifice for us in the person and work of Jesus Christ just as He provided a sacrifice for Abraham.

Because the Gospel is spelled out so prolifically and so clearly in the OT sharing the Gospel with Jews is often easier.
 
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SkyWriting

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So I need to learn about what makes a Muslim a Muslim and then determine if Osama Bin Laden properly represented Islam?

Matthew 7:12 does not, in my opinion, support me needing to learn enough about Islam to determine if Bin Laden was a good one or not. The idea of treating others as I desire to be treated does not cover me needing to learn about other religions UNLESS I have been called to minister to them somehow. Then it would be necessary for me to know where they are in their understanding of their own religion so that I can speak to them on their level and in a way that would have an influence. The average Christian is not called to this... so I fail to see your point, respectfully. Thus, likewise, the average Jew (who generally is not evangelical about their beliefs) does not have to learn the tenets of Christianity and then judge us based on our beliefs. That really just makes no sense to me.
Blessings.
Ken

I can shun your views then , since you so desire others to shun you.
As you wish.
 
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