This land is my land.

[Xeno.of.athens]

There's a deep emotional attachment to Israel as an idea, as the called-out people of God, made incarnate through the act of remembering ancient scriptures in the 20th century and now in the 21st century and substituting the Israelite refugees of Europe's holocaust for the indigenous people of the British protectorate of Palestine. Thus, at its heart Israel is a religious-refuge state - a very poor apology for the holocaust - that has become a vengeful angel against terrible terrorists and millions of ordinary Palestinians.

Christians cannot come to terms with the reality of what is seen and heard in media reports today and the promises of God regarding his covenant people that are read in the Old Testament and echoed in some of the language of the New Testament.

Others, who read the Old Testament scriptures, have therein a rich mine of examples of vengeance meted out against the Canaanites, and by substituting for Canaan the people of the Levant today, easily justify the bloodshed. "Vengeance is Mine says the Lord", some who read those words will place great emphasis on vengeance. A Christian must place great emphasis on the Lord.

(Deuteronomy 32:35 ESV) Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.'​

​

(Romans 12:19 ESV) Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."​

​

(Hebrews 10:30 ESV) For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." (31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

 

[RandyPNW]

There's a deep emotional attachment to Israel as an idea, as the called-out people of God, made incarnate through the act of remembering ancient scriptures in the 20th century and now in the 21st century and substituting the Israelite refugees of Europe's holocaust for the indigenous people of the British protectorate of Palestine. Thus, at its heart Israel is a religious-refuge state - a very poor apology for the holocaust - that has become a vengeful angel against terrible terrorists and millions of ordinary Palestinians.

Christians cannot come to terms with the reality of what is seen and heard in media reports today and the promises of God regarding his covenant people that are read in the Old Testament and echoed in some of the language of the New Testament.

Others, who read the Old Testament scriptures, have therein a rich mine of examples of vengeance meted out against the Canaanites, and by substituting for Canaan the people of the Levant today, easily justify the bloodshed. "Vengeance is Mine says the Lord", some who read those words will place great emphasis on vengeance. A Christian must place great emphasis on the Lord.

(Deuteronomy 32:35 ESV) Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.'​

​

(Romans 12:19 ESV) Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."​

​

(Hebrews 10:30 ESV) For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." (31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Many of us have wondered how God could order ancient Israel to exterminate an entire race, or 7 entire nations, called the Canaanites? If He is a God of love, and He is, how could He order the mass killing of man, woman, and child, young and old? It appears that none of us in the modern world, raised in post-Christian countries, are able to recognize how insidious sin really is?

The people of Gaza cannot so easily be separated into "terrorist thugs and innocent civilians." A large percentage of the people of Gaza elected the Hamas leadership, and continue to support their objective of wiping out the Jewish State. They are fully racist and genocidal, and don't even apologize for it, except through our liberal Western press.

So when Israel fires at these terrorists who hide among their people, how do we know that the people do not seek to hide them among themselves? If so many are dying, there must surely be collusion between the terrorists and the civilians?

So we hear this constant bellowing for "ceasefire," when the only way to end savagery from Gaza is by mercilessly stamping out the terrorists, and any who may be seeking to hide them. Period.

 

[Philip_B]

They are fully racist and genocidal, and don't even apologize for it, except through our liberal Western press.

It is not immediately clear who is 'They'.

Whilst most us here are not muslim, we should be able to see the difference between the political arm of Hamas, and the millitant/terrorist arm of Hamas.

Simply to see Israel as an apology for the Hollacost is a mistake. You need to look at the rise of Zionesm in the late 19th century, the Balfour Declaration and the intentional duplicity yhat durround that, the paucity of the 1948 decision, and the outright racism didplayed in UN securoty council delaration 242.

 

[RandyPNW]

It is not immediately clear who is 'They'.

Whilst most us here are not muslim, we should be able to see the difference between the political arm of Hamas, and the millitant/terrorist arm of Hamas.

Simply to see Israel as an apology for the Hollacost is a mistake. You need to look at the rise of Zionesm in the late 19th century, the Balfour Declaration and the intentional duplicity yhat durround that, the paucity of the 1948 decision, and the outright racism didplayed in UN securoty council delaration 242.

About 40 years ago I read the book, "The Fall and Rise of Israel." It's a thorough treatment of Israel in the period of Jewish Diaspora in the present era. I'm been following the events in the Middle East since I was a kid.

I see no difference between Hamas political or terrorist. They are one and the same. Prove me wrong?

Israel doing aliyah is a direct response to Hitler's "final solution." I do have Muslims in our family.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is not immediately clear who is 'They'.

Whilst most us here are not muslim, we should be able to see the difference between the political arm of Hamas, and the millitant/terrorist arm of Hamas.

Simply to see Israel as an apology for the Hollacost is a mistake. You need to look at the rise of Zionesm in the late 19th century, the Balfour Declaration and the intentional duplicity yhat durround that, the paucity of the 1948 decision, and the outright racism didplayed in UN securoty council delaration 242.

Israel is many things, I used that phrase in the context of the current violence and the main political figures involved, Netanyahu, and a few others.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Many of us have wondered how God could order ancient Israel to exterminate an entire race, or 7 entire nations, called the Canaanites? If He is a God of love, and He is, how could He order the mass killing of man, woman, and child, young and old? It appears that none of us in the modern world, raised in post-Christian countries, are able to recognize how insidious sin really is?

I'm not comparing the modern Palestinians with the ancient Canaanites, but the Israelite exterminatinon of the Canaanites was a judgement, not genocide. They were an evil society.

Canaanite Culture

How could a good God command the Israelites to slaughter every man, woman, child and even animal in the cities of Canaan?

www.susancanthony.com

Ancent stories give hints about the evil in Sodom. Strangers and travelers who came into the city would be robbed, stripped, and held captive within the city. They would wander the streets slowly starving to death, to the great amusement of the citizenry. One account relates that visitors to Sodom were offered a bed according to the Middle Eastern laws of hospitality, but it was a bed of torture. Short people were stretched. Tall people had their legs cut off. If a traveler had no money, he would be given bricks of gold and silver with his name on them! But nobody would sell him bread and water, even for all that gold and silver, so the traveler slowly died of starvation. The Sodomites gathered around the corpse and took back the gold and silver. The people in Sodom were not just evil, they were proud of being evil. Imagine being a child in a place like that

Archeology gives some hints about what the Canaanites did. On one High Place, archeologists found several stone pillars and great numbers of jars containing remains of newborn babies. When a new house was built, a child would be sacrificed and its body built into the wall to bring good luck to the rest of the family. Firstborn children were often sacrificed to Molech, a giant hollow bronze image in which a fire was built. Parents placed their children in its red hot hands and the babies would roll down into the fire. The sacrifice was invalid if a parent displayed grief. Mothers were supposed to dance and sing. The Israelites later copied this practice in a valley near Jerusalem called Gehenna. Hundreds of jars containing infant bones have been found there.

What would you think of a who DIDN'T judge a society like that?

 

[RandyPNW]

I'm not comparing the modern Palestinians with the ancient Canaanites, but the Israelite exterminatinon of the Canaanites was a judgement, not genocide. They were an evil society.

This is a distinction without a difference. The "judgment" was indeed a 'genocide." It was God's determination to remove the culture entirely.

And how one can miss the fact God is "judging" the people of Gaza today would be mind-blowing! Clearly, this is divine judgment against them for conspiring to destroy Israel?

Sometimes judgments take place by divine revelation, and the people carrying out the judgment are fully aware. But sometimes God's "hammer" operates this "judgment" without conscious recognition that God is using them.

I believe Israel herself is suffering "correction" from God in this Muslim attack against them. But what is happening to Gaza is full-blown judgment from God! I don't suffer any illusions about that!

What would you think of a who DIDN'T judge a society like that?

No, I wish others were fully aware that God has a reason for bringing societies to their knees, or perhaps to an end altogether. We in the Christian West tend to "explain sin" so as to forgive it like "good little Christians" who are "tolerant."

But God condemned King Saul for being "too forgiving," allowing an evil pagan king to survive judgment. We just have to know the mind of God. To do that we need to stay close to His heart, and know His ways.

 

[Philip_B]

This is a distinction without a difference. The "judgment" was indeed a 'genocide." It was God's determination to remove the culture entirely.

And how one can miss the fact God is "judging" the people of Gaza today would be mind-blowing! Clearly, this is divine judgment against them for conspiring to destroy Israel?

Sometimes judgments take place by divine revelation, and the people carrying out the judgment are fully aware. But sometimes God's "hammer" operates this "judgment" without conscious recognition that God is using them.

I believe Israel herself is suffering "correction" from God in this Muslim attack against them. But what is happening to Gaza is full-blown judgment from God! I don't suffer any illusions about that!

No, I wish others were fully aware that God has a reason for bringing societies to their knees, or perhaps to an end altogether. We in the Christian West tend to "explain sin" so as to forgive it like "good little Christians" who are "tolerant."

But God condemned King Saul for being "too forgiving," allowing an evil pagan king to survive judgment. We just have to know the mind of God. To do that we need to stay close to His heart, and know His ways.

I am not sure that it is not simply the absent-minded disinterest of Westerners, and rather than simply judgement of God it is more specifically the result (intended or unintended) of the casual belief of many in the West that some animals are more equal than others. (the allusion to the George Orwell novel Animal Farm was intended.)

I do not equate the will of the US Military Industrial Complex with the will of God. War is profitable for some, but claiming a divine imprimatur for it is an argument that has not understood the depth of Johhanine Christology at all.

 

[RandyPNW]

I am not sure that it is not simply the absent-minded disinterest of Westerners, and rather than simply judgement of God it is more specifically the result (intended or unintended) of the casual belief of many in the West that some animals are more equal than others. (the allusion to the George Orwell novel Animal Farm was intended.)

I do not equate the will of the US Military Industrial Complex with the will of God. War is profitable for some, but claiming a divine imprimatur for it is an argument that has not understood the depth of Johhanine Christology at all.

Or, you just don't see the forest for the trees...

 

[Philip_B]

Or, you just don't see the forest for the trees...

Or I choose not to blame the divine for the bad things humans do.

We see things differently, and given that you are an American, that is quite likely. I don't believe everything my Country and its Government do is always correct. I simply try to understand it, and that involves looking at the history, the motivators, and the money trail. Many Americans (and I don't mean to include you) somehow see Americans as more equal than others.

One book I found very helpful was The Hundred Years War Against Palestine, and if you get a chance to read it you may find it informative.

 

[RandyPNW]

Or I choose not to blame the divine for the bad things humans do.

We see things differently, and given that you are an American, that is quite likely. I don't believe everything my Country and its Government do is always correct. I simply try to understand it, and that involves looking at the history, the motivators, and the money trail. Many Americans (and I don't mean to include you) somehow see Americans as more equal than others.

One book I found very helpful was The Hundred Years War Against Palestine, and if you get a chance to read it you may find it informative.

Yes, I'm American, though our place here doesn't run very deep. I'm far more Christian than I am American, though. I'm not infected with the politics and patriotism to the extent I put that before the Word of God.

I do hear what you're saying. America is also being corrected/judged for its ways. America's arrogance is being dealt with through a divided nation, economic trouble, and ecological strains. As well, God has visited great blessings on this country, since there are also many good people here who are responsible with what God has given them.

In my view, everything we see in the world is by God's plan or control, whether you want to call it Natural Law, Correction, Judgment, or Salvation. It is all a product of Divine justice. And God governs the extent to what men can do to other men, as well.

You "reap what you sow" is a principle that has been going on for eons, since God Himself created the concept. So we probably agree more than we disagree if you think God runs the show?