Holocaust Theology

[SkyWriting]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

---> Mathew 7: 12

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What did the Jews in Europe in the 30's do that made them worthy of the horrors they experienced?

They were doing some of the same things that all of the other peoples involved in World War II were doing---denying the Lord God, and denying Jesus, by either word or action. But, I would say World War II as a whole was not a punishment only for what was happening in the 1930s. Nay, the onset of multiple sets of social unrest among Europeans was a long developing outgrowth of the Enlightenment and various Revolutionary tendencies of thought and action among these nations. Moreover, WWII wasn't the only manifestation of all of this; but it has been the worst one thus far....

...And then Israel became a nation again, which may, by the political and biblical patterns involved, tell us something. But exactly what that something is, is not something I'm sure about yet. Nor, do I think the Lord will somehow impart any assurance to me about it.

Like the rest of the world, I'm waiting to see what God will do next. As I said before, in the meantime, while we're all trying to fit the puzzle pieces together, we as Christians should pray, work and advocate for political, social, and spiritual peace, as well as affirm and spread the truth of Jesus Christ with wisdom and compassion.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Heber Book List]

Not quite; Job didn't have a fault of actually denying God's Law, or portions thereof. The Jewish people (like we Gentiles today) have a tendency to obscure bits and pieces of the Bible to suite our present political and social preferences. Job didn't do that. So, Job's friends were wrong to castigate Job for "his sins."

So what is your theodicy for HaShoah?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So what is your theodicy for HaShoah?

I'm not meaning for this to sound rude, because I definitely do not mean for it to come across that way, but I think I explained my basic theodicy in all of the previous posts I've placed into this particular thread so far. So, I'd kindly ask that you review the several posts that I've written in this thread. And if you have a specific question about something particular, I will be more than happy to expound upon it, discuss it, or listen to you to give me some additional things to think about. I don't and won't pretend to have it "all" figured out. And if someone can show me that I'm absolutely wrong, I'm more than willing to consider an alternative view. But, I would like to let you know, in being upfront, that I do include in my studies the work of various Jewish thinkers (and Rabbis) in my overall considerations.

Peace to You,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Heber Book List]

I'm not meaning for this to sound rude, because I definitely do not mean for it to come across that way, but I think I explained my basic theodicy in all of the previous posts I've placed into this particular thread so far. So, I'd kindly ask that you review the several posts that I've written in this thread. And if you have a specific question about something particular, I will be more than happy to expound upon it, discuss it, or listen to you to give me some additional things to think about. I don't and won't pretend to have it "all" figured out. And if someone can show me that I'm absolutely wrong, I'm more than willing to consider an alternative view. But, I would like to let you know, in being upfront, that I do include in my studies the work of various Jewish thinkers (and Rabbis) in my overall considerations.

Peace to You,
2PhiloVoid

I'm not sure you have shown any vindication of G_d in the face of evil (theodicy) - you seem to have attempted to reason that HaShoah was imposed by G_d as punishment on the Jews. This implies, as I think Steve was pointing out, that G_d is thereby shown as being simply sadistic and vindictive by causing the war that brought into being HaShoah, as well as the death of millions upon millions of ordinary, every day people from countries all round the world: Christians, Jews, Muslims and most other religious groups, as well as atheists, who seem to have suffered because of the disobedience of the Jews!

I note that you make almost no comment about the fact that 'the Church' failed to stand up against what was happening to not only the Jews but other segments of society - or did G_d really mean to punish the children, the gypsies, the old, the infirm, the cripples etc., by fire, gas and brutal murder? Is that really why G_d caused the 2nd world war? Or was it just the stupidity of mankind? Or it is more politically correct to blame the Jews?

Will he now start a 3rd world war to punish the Christians? What about a 4th to punish Muslims and other religions, all of whom, like some Jews and some Christians over the centuries, have rejected him for other gods? If G_d is the same yesterday, as he is today etc., the answer must be 'yes'?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm not sure you have shown any vindication of G_d in the face of evil (theodicy) - you seem to have attempted to reason that HaShoah was imposed by G_d as punishment on the Jews. This implies, as I think Steve was pointing out, that G_d is thereby shown as being simply sadistic and vindictive by causing the war that brought into being HaShoah, as well as the death of millions upon millions of ordinary, every day people from countries all round the world: Christians, Jews, Muslims and most other religious groups, as well as atheists, who seem to have suffered because of the disobedience of the Jews!

I agree with you that thus far, on this particular thread, I have not laid out a specific vindication of the Lord in attempting to square away the evident evil that the world has experienced. I could attempt to do so, but I would first like to point out that if a "true" theodicy is to be undertaken (if anyone can truly produce such a thing from a human point of view), I'd need to know if such a theodicy is to be constructed from the framework of the Biblical notions of God's Holiness, Justice, and Mercy; or is this construction to be made from the Modern notions of enlightened and post-enlightened thinking? I'm somehow under the impression from Scripture that a true theodicy, if one can be understood to apply, will emerge from the pages of the Lord's Word, rather than being fashioned purely out of extra-biblical, or non-biblical, notions of justice. Am I wrong to think about this in this way, all things philosophically considered? Since you're an academic, I take it, from where do you think God expects us to find the locus for constructing a theodicy, HBL? (And I do ask this respectfully.)

I note that you make almost no comment about the fact that 'the Church' failed to stand up against what was happening to not only the Jews but other segments of society - or did G_d really mean to punish the children, the gypsies, the old, the infirm, the cripples etc., by fire, gas and brutal murder? Is that really why G_d caused the 2nd world war? Or was it just the stupidity of mankind? Or it is more politically correct to blame the Jews?

If we are talking about the Catholic Church, sure it failed to stand up to Hitler as it could have. So also did the German Protestant Church; in general, it failed to stand up to Hitler. And I think it can only be understood, from history, that what was known as the "Confessing Church" in Germany took any semblance of appropriate action; someone like Heinrich Gruber being an example, and maybe Bonhoeffer, minus the philosophical/ethical dilemmas involved in attempting to do away with Hitler.

Will he now start a 3rd world war to punish the Christians? What about a 4th to punish Muslims and other religions, all of whom, like some Jews and some Christians over the centuries, have rejected him for other gods? If G_d is the same yesterday, as he is today etc., the answer must be 'yes'?

There very well could be and probably will be future manifestations of God's Will in the world; for those who flout God's will as expressed in the Torah, should we expect less? (I'm asking this as an honest question, not as an aside against your integrity or intelligence, Heber). Is the Lord not in the right to Judge? What am I missing in my estimation of how the Lord should view humanities' thoughts and actions in view of the Advent of Jesus the Messiah?

(Thank you for taking this discussion seriously, Heber.)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

Here is an article about Heinrich Gruber for everyone's consideration. http://db.yadvashem.org/righteous/family.html?language=en&itemId=4043003

And another one: German Church Leader Testifies Against Eichmann at Jerusalem Trial

 

[Heber Book List]

I agree with you that thus far, on this particular thread, I have not laid out a specific vindication of the Lord in attempting to square away the evident evil that the world has experienced. I could attempt to do so, but I would first like to point out that if a "true" theodicy is to be undertaken (if anyone can truly produce such a thing from a human point of view), I'd need to know if such a theodicy is to be constructed from the framework of the Biblical notions of God's Holiness, Justice, and Mercy; or is this construction to be made from the Modern notions of enlightened and post-enlightened thinking? I'm somehow under the impression from Scripture that a true theodicy, if one can be understood to apply, will emerge from the pages of the Lord's Word, rather than being fashioned purely out of extra-biblical, or non-biblical, notions of justice. Am I wrong to think about this in this way, all things philosophically considered? Since you're an academic, I take it, from where do you think God expects us to find the locus for constructing a theodicy, HBL? (And I do ask this respectfully.)

If we are talking about the Catholic Church, sure it failed to stand up to Hitler as it could have. So also did the German Protestant Church; in general, it failed to stand up to Hitler. And I think it can only be made out from history that what is now cited as the "Confessing Church" in Germany took any semblance of appropriate action; someone like Heinrich Gruber being an example, and maybe Bonhoeffer, minus the philosophical/ethical dilemmas involved in attempting to do away with Hitler.

There very well could be and probably will be future manifestations of God's Will in the world; for those who flout God's will as expressed in the Torah, should we expect less? (I'm asking this as an honest question, not as an aside against your integrity or intelligence, Heber). Is the Lord not in the right to Judge? What am I missing in my estimation of how the Lord should view humanities' thoughts and actions in view of the Advent of Jesus the Messiah?

(Thank you for taking this discussion seriously, Heber.)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Mmmm Not easy to answer in one go! I think it is necessary, if we are looking at this against the OP, to formulate a theodicy that sits reasonable well with where the HaShoah survivor sits in matters of his / her faith, if a faith still exists; one would need to have a good understanding of Judaism to do that. If a faith does not still exist, then one would need to wonder whether even the very best theodicy will be of help - if he / she thinks there is no G_d, then there can be no theodicy, in his / her mind, by definition.

Having said that, there is little point giving the OP, as a Jew, a 'Christian' theodicy, as he / she would have fundamental problems as soon as you start to speak and the conversation just would not happen. I also think it would be incredibly bad form to even think along the lines of trying to 'witness' to anyone in this situation - there's a time and place for everything, just not at times like these when, for this person, they are struggling to cope with life, and getting to grips with issues as sensitive as these. On the other hand, I did say (for this very reason), earlier in the thread, that we should encourage the person to go and speak with their (or a) Rabbi.

If we are wanting to explore a theodicy for our own purposes then, again, we must work it through according to our own position before G_d, in which case you and I would see issues very differently, and so arrive at very different outcomes. This leads us to your point about finding a theodicy ourselves. Surely, this must be borne from the strength of our own understanding of G_d and our own level of complete trust in him, at all times and in all places? Theodicy simply means explaining or, better, vindicating G_d in any given situation. Sadly, some people seek to blame G_d for everything (or even haSatan), and so they cannot, because their eyes are stopped up with the world, even conceive of thinking of a theodicy (if they knew what it meant). Today, people are far too happy to blame everyone, and everything, else except themselves, for whatever befalls them in this life. If we read the Psalms, we find in them excellent vindications of G_d in the prayers and cries of the writers. A theodicy does not have to be a long theological treatise, the best theodicy is to be found when we simply prostrate ourselves before G_d, cry out to him, and recognise who he is, and who we really are in the great scheme of Creation, but to do this we have to be brutally honest with ourselves. No matter whether you are a Jew or a Christian, it should not take long to work out a theodicy if we approach G_d in this way.

You then asked: Is the Lord not in the right to Judge? What am I missing in my estimation of how the Lord should view humanities' thoughts and actions in view of the Advent of Jesus the Messiah?

It is clear that G_d can, has and will judge people - we had all best get used to that. Christians often quote a saying that 'we should not judge in case we shall be judged'. That view is not supported in the Scriptures (Tanach or Christian Testament) without caveats. It also says in the Christian Testament that you ARE to judge, and if the offender does not change, it tells you what action to take. The key difference in those statements is that the latter has, as its key emphasis, the simple fact of righteous judgement, not any old judgement that humans might want to dish out. It also says, that what you permit here on earth will be permitted in heaven - BUT, only if what is permitted is from a righteous judgement; as is often prayed in the Family Prayer: 'Our Father, who is in heaven... your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven...'. It is better to get used to the idea of being judged because when you get to the end of the Christian Testament, it is written that there will be Books of Life and a Book of Life (note the plural and singular). The former are the Books of lives lived, and judgment will be based on what is recorded there. That is why it is also written that G_d will, when sins are truly repented of and forgiven, erase the entry [from the Book of your life] for that sin, so that it will never be brought to mind again. In the latter Book are, to my understanding, all those who have trusted G_d with their lives, have tasted forgiveness of sins, and have carried out his teachings to the very best of their ability (you may translate that rather differently - I am not going to debate these issues).

The advent of Jesus (Yeshua haMashiach) was to teach that human beings can live in such a way that will keep us at one with the Almighty, and that sin need not be the barrier it has been in the past. That is all he came for - but it has taken millions of books to get that simple fact into as many heads as possible! We who hold G_d in great esteem, have a duty to make known the Responsible Freedom in which G_d intends us to live. Until that is achieved we shall have wars and murders and all manner of nasty things that human beings decide to do, by their own thoughts, to themselves, to each other, to Creation and to G_d. We forget that G_d, in his love for us, gave us 'Responsible Freedom', known as 'love' to us (how we reduce the gift of the Almighty to just four letters, that have so many different meanings!). We accepted the 'love' but very soon forget the 'Responsible Freedom' part. When Messiah confronts us in times to come, we will all discover just how far from his desire for us of 'Responsible Freedom' humanity has dared to roam!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Mmmm Not easy to answer in one go! I think it is necessary, if we are looking at this against the OP, to formulate a theodicy that sits reasonable well with where the HaShoah survivor sits in matters of his / her faith, if a faith still exists; one would need to have a good understanding of Judaism to do that. If a faith does not still exist, then one would need to wonder whether even the very best theodicy will be of help - if he / she thinks there is no G_d, then there can be no theodicy, in his / her mind, by definition.

Having said that, there is little point giving the OP, as a Jew, a 'Christian' theodicy, as he / she would have fundamental problems as soon as you start to speak and the conversation just would not happen. I also think it would be incredibly bad form to even think along the lines of trying to 'witness' to anyone in this situation - there's a time and place for everything, just not at times like these when, for this person, they are struggling to cope with life, and getting to grips with issues as sensitive as these. On the other hand, I did say (for this very reason), earlier in the thread, that we should encourage the person to go and speak with their (or a) Rabbi.

If we are wanting to explore a theodicy for our own purposes then, again, we must work it through according to our own position before G_d, in which case you and I would see issues very differently, and so arrive at very different outcomes. This leads us to your point about finding a theodicy ourselves. Surely, this must be borne from the strength of our own understanding of G_d and our own level of complete trust in him, at all times and in all places? Theodicy simply means explaining or, better, vindicating G_d in any given situation. Sadly, some people seek to blame G_d for everything (or even haSatan), and so they cannot, because their eyes are stopped up with the world, even conceive of thinking of a theodicy (if they knew what it meant). Today, people are far too happy to blame everyone, and everything, else except themselves, for whatever befalls them in this life. If we read the Psalms, we find in them excellent vindications of G_d in the prayers and cries of the writers. A theodicy does not have to be a long theological treatise, the best theodicy is to be found when we simply prostrate ourselves before G_d, cry out to him, and recognise who he is, and who we really are in the great scheme of Creation, but to do this we have to be brutally honest with ourselves. No matter whether you are a Jew or a Christian, it should not take long to work out a theodicy if we approach G_d in this way.

You then asked: Is the Lord not in the right to Judge? What am I missing in my estimation of how the Lord should view humanities' thoughts and actions in view of the Advent of Jesus the Messiah?

It is clear that G_d can, has and will judge people - we had all best get used to that. Christians often quote a saying that 'we should not judge in case we shall be judged'. That view is not supported in the Scriptures (Tanach or Christian Testament) without caveats. It also says in the Christian New Testament that you ARE to judge, and if the offender does not change, it tells you what action to take. The key difference in those statements is that the latter has, as its key emphasis, the simple fact of righteous judgement, not any old judgement that humans might want to dish out. It also says, that what you permit here on earth will be permitted in heaven - BUT, only if what is permitted is from a righteous judgement; as is often prayed in the Family Prayer: 'Our Father, who is in heaven... your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven...'. It is better to get used to the idea of being judged because when you get to the end of the Christian Testament, it is written that there will be Books of Life and a Book of Life (note the plural and singular). The former are the Books of lives lived, and judgment will be based on what is recorded there. That is why it is also written that G_d will, when sins are truly repented of and forgiven, erase the entry [from the Book of your life] for that sin, so that it will never be brought to mind again. In the latter Book are, to my understanding, all those who have trusted G_d with their lives, have tasted forgiveness of sins, and have carried out his teachings to the very best of their ability (you may translate that rather differently - I am not going to debate these issues).

The advent of Jesus (Yeshua haMashiach) was teach that human beings can live in such a way that will keep us at one with the Almighty, and that sin need not be the barrier it has been in the past. That is all he came for - but it has taken millions of books to get that simple fact into as many heads as possible! We who hold G_d in great esteem, have a duty to make known the Responsible Freedom in which G_d intends us to live. Until that is achieved we shall have wars and murders and all manner of nasty things that human beings decide to do, by their own thoughts, to themselves, to each other, to Creation and to G_d. We forget that G_d, in his love for us, gave us 'Responsible Freedom', known as 'love' to us (how we reduce the gift of the Almighty to just four letters, that have so many different meanings!). We accepted the 'love' but very soon forget the 'Responsible Freedom' part. When Messiah confronts us in times to come, we will all discover just how far from his desire for us of 'Responsible Freedom' humanity has dared to roam!

Heber, your response above is a very wise articulation on a very serious subject at hand, especially in light of the OP. I couldn't have said it better, and because I'm not Jewish, I'm sure I wouldn't have said it better. So, with that, I thank you for taking the time to write your post--in fact, I'll save it and keep it for further reflection.

(I hope others here will take the time to read what you have written as well.)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Heber Book List]

Heber, your response above is a very wise articulation on a very serious subject at hand, especially in light of the OP. I couldn't have said it better, and because I'm not Jewish, I'm sure I wouldn't have said it better. So, with that, I thank you for taking the time to write your post--in fact, I'll save it and keep it for further reflection.

(I hope others here will take the time to read what you have written as well.)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Thank you. That is what Applied Theology (at least a short answer to it) is about - the 'how' of living under G_d in a sinful world, of which we all are a part.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

Achilles,

Taking into consideration the things Heber Book List has said in post #48, and in our recognition of the horrific magnitude of the Holocaust, it is probably a modern, evangelical mistake to think we can just sit down and start posing dialogue and questions to a Jewish person who has experienced the direness of the Holocaust. In saying this, I'm also reminded of the point Jewish philosopher Elliot N. Dorff (1992) makes about how a large portion of Jewish people who have lived since over the past several decades have become atheistic because of the Holocaust, and they are feeling mass confusion and hurt about God's existence and goodness.

It would probably be more in keeping with the intent of Jesus, in His Holy compassion, for us to first get to know the Jewish person. And rather than ply that Jewish person with evangelical questions, offer instead our friendship, our help, our prayers, our service, our possible companionship, if needed.

In such cases, we should attempt to apply emotional intelligence and recognize the trauma that has enveloped that Jewish person; our interest should be one of care, as should be the delivery of the Gospel to a person whose identity belongs to the Covenant through Moses. Sometimes we need to "show" them Jesus, not simply "tell" them Jesus.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

References​

Dorff, Elliot N. (1992). Knowing God. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, Inc.

 

[Carolyn1063]

Not the point... historically he is listed as Christian, his tombstone states the same. To SOME Jewish people who have lived through that horror... who are NOT Christians... why do they have to learn to discern whether Hitler truly represented Christianity or not? That is my only point... to SOME Jews, whose job is not to decide on our walk... they can view us like this, especially overly evangelical Christians. But, I see on this point we agree anyway.

Where is Hitlers tombstone ?? His & Eva Brauns bodies were burnt by SS guards after they committed suicide

 

[Carolyn1063]

Not the point... historically he is listed as Christian, his tombstone states the same. To SOME Jewish people who have lived through that horror... who are NOT Christians... why do they have to learn to discern whether Hitler truly represented Christianity or not? That is my only point... to SOME Jews, whose job is not to decide on our walk... they can view us like this, especially overly evangelical Christians. But, I see on this point we agree anyway.

Where is Hitlers tombstone ?? His & Eva Brauns bodies were burnt in the Reichstag garden by SS after they committed suicide

 

[Ken Rank]

How you figure that?

---> Mathew 7: 12
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

I am not sure which question you are asking, how "it also isn't up to the Jewish people to have to discern whether or not Hitler was a good representation of Christianity or not" or if you are asking about Matthew 7:12? So, I will cover both. As for Hitler, even though Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, it deviated onto it's own separate path after the bar Kokhba revolt of 132CE. So, since then it truly has been its own religion. It has similarities and ties, even to the point of us being called, "Judaeo-Christian" but it has certainly had it's own path. As such, most Jews just don't give it any thought, it isn't on their radar unless you are handing out tracts to them or their kids trying to save them. Thus, it is NOT THEIR JOB to understand what is and is not considered Christian ethics. It isn't their religion. How much does the average Christian know about Buddhism? Very little! What make a good Buddhist a good Buddhist? Most Christians can't answer.. just as most Jews can't tell you what makes a good Christian a good Christian. So, is the Jew expected to know if Hitler really represented what we believe? No... not their job just as it isn't our job to study and know if Bin Laden was a good Muslim.

As for Matthew 7:12... love is the essence of Torah. Yeshua said to love God and neighbor and that "upon these two hang all the Torah and Prophets." So the Torah has as its foundation, love.

 

[Ken Rank]

Where is Hitlers tombstone ?? His & Eva Brauns bodies were burnt by SS guards after they committed suicide

I don't know sis, not the point. He claimed to be a Christian (Catholic) and to the Jews, whose religion no longer resembles ours (Christianity and Judaism were much more alike in the first century), it is no more their responsibility to know if Hitler was a good Christian as it would be for me to determine who is a good Buddhist.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't know sis, not the point. He claimed to be a Christian (Catholic) and to the Jews, whose religion no longer resembles ours (Christianity and Judaism were much more alike in the first century), it is no more their responsibility to know if Hitler was a good Christian as it would be for me to determine who is a good Buddhist.

Ken, I'd have to say the Bible clearly delineates that Jews are responsible for knowing what a True Prophet of God is versus one that is not. So, even though we as Christians should be caring, merciful and thoughtful in interacting with our Jewish spiritual cousins, we by no means should simply say that we shouldn't expect Jews to be responsible to adhere to the qualities of their own starting point with G_d. Furthermore, I don't think someone like the late Stan Telchin would necessarily agree with you either, even though he was a Jewish person, although I'm sure he'd insist that we Gentile Christians also attempt to have vast patience, understanding, and compassion upon present-day Jewish people, especially those still alive and who have survived the Holocaust.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken, I'd have to say the Bible clearly delineates that Jews are responsible for knowing what a True Prophet of God is versus one that is not. So, even though we as Christians should be caring, merciful and thoughtful in interacting with our Jewish spiritual cousins, we by no means should simply say that we shouldn't expect Jews to be responsible to adhere to the qualities of their own starting point with G_d. Furthermore, I don't think someone like the late Stan Telchin would necessarily agree with you either, even though he was a Jewish person, although I'm sure he'd insist that we Gentile Christians also attempt to have vast patience, understanding, and compassion upon present-day Jewish people, especially those still alive and who have survived the Holocaust.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Hitler didn't say he was a prophet, he simply claimed to be acting for the church. He claimed to be a Christian... and ANY CHRISTIAN is not a concern of many Jews. It isn't up to them to determine who is and is not a good Christian. By the way... perhaps you see most of us as prophets, they don't... they see the prophets as having ceased long ago. And even if they are incorrect, that is the perspective they view this from. You need to take that into consideration, respectfully.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

The following video is presenting a debate/discussion between Jewish Rabbis on one side (Rabbi Marvin Hier and Rabbi Schmuley Boteach), and both a Baptist Pastor and a leader of Jews for Jesus, on the other side Pastor Albert Mohler (Southern Baptist) and David Brickner (Jews for Jesus).

This video captures various aspects of the issue in which the OP touches upon, but also with a fuller discussion as to the viewpoints involving the presentation of Christianity to Jews on a more general level.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hitler didn't say he was a prophet, he simply claimed to be acting for the church. He claimed to be a Christian... and ANY CHRISTIAN is not a concern of many Jews. It isn't up to them to determine who is and is not a good Christian.

By the same corollary, it then isn't up to Christians to determine who is or isn't a good Jewish person. The only problem with that is that this would then defray what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospels about the importance for Christians to discern between True and False Prophets (or even true and false brethren). Jesus' imperative is an extension of the Torah ... so, as you might see, there is a problem here with your argument, Brother Ken.

By the way... perhaps you see most of us as prophets, they don't... they see the prophets as having ceased long ago. And even if they are incorrect, that is the perspective they view this from. You need to take that into consideration, respectfully.

Right. As Christians, we aren't to "enforce" the truth of Jesus upon the Jewish People, which is a mistake that, I would assert, many who have claimed to be Christian ever since, let's say, the time of Emperor Constantine, have made.

However, we might also want to say that perhaps the best Christian evangelizing of the Jewish people is, and can be, done by ... Jewish people (such as those who identify as being with organizations like Jews for Jesus.)

But, let's in no way continue to proffer, extend, allow, define, or promulgate the MYTH that Hitler was in any way a "Christian." He wasn't much more of a Christian than either Nebuchadnezzar, or Vespian and Titus, other than that he grew up in modern day Germany and was conversant with the ideas of the Church, ideas that he himself did not fully believe and in fact distorted.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Ken Rank]

By the same corollary, it then isn't up to Christians to determine who is or isn't a good Jewish person. The only problem with that is that this would then defray what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospels about the importance for Christians to discern between True and False Prophets. Jesus' imperative is an extension of the Torah ... so, as you might see, there is a problem here with your argument, Brother Ken.

I would agree with that, it isn't our job. We have two entirely separate religions at this point. Even if Christianity came out of Judaism and was viewed as a sect of Judaism in the first century and until about 1/3rd of the way through the 2nd, we still have been apart from what are really brothers for almost 1900 years. Since then, rabbis changed the face of Judaism, decrees passed by early counsels were done deliberately to distance ourselves from our Jewish roots and we have built upon those decrees as more time passed... I don't think it is up to either to judge the other in that regard. And because of the divisions through denominations we see even with Christianity, I would suggest brother, that our authority rests within our local congregations UNLESS we see a brother who is either about to stumble or about to cause others to stumble. I am just not sure how far we can go without encroaching on the authority of other elders and pastors beyond that.

Right. As Christians, we aren't to "enforce" the truth of Jesus upon the Jewish People, which is a mistake that, I would assert, many who have claimed to be Christian ever since, let's say, the time of Emperor Constantine, have made.

Unfortunately though, many have tried to force. We have a historical record of forced baptisms, the forcing of eating unclean meats, and even death in the name of Jesus over the lack of acceptance of Jesus (sounds like how some in Islam currently act) and it makes it hard to overcome the paradigm that Jews are born into regarding us.

However, we might also want to say that perhaps the best Christian evangelizing of the Jewish people is, and can be, done by ... Jewish people (such as those who identify as being with organizations like Jews for Jesus.)

Respectfully, I disagree. I think the best witness we have is our walk. Paul wrote that in everything we do in word or deed we are to do it in the name of Yeshua. "Name of" to a Hebrew like Paul...meant in the authority of... or in the character and reputation of. So brother, factor in the Great Commission. The "Go!" isn't in command form... it is a passive participle, it is "going." The idea is, "as you are going, teach." The "teach" is in command form but we first have to go, live, and reflect the Lord in our words and deeds and when anyone, Jewish or not, asks questions because they see him in our words and deeds, then we have a willing student and can fulfill the Great Commission.

But, let's in no way continue to proffer, extend, allow, define, or promulgate the MYTH that Hitler was in any way a "Christian." He wasn't much more of a Christian than either Nebuchadnezzar, or Vespian and Titus, other than that he grew up in modern day Germany and was conversant with the ideas of the Church, ideas that he himself did not fully believe and in fact distorted.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

I don't think Hitler was...he might have THOUGHT he was but so do Arian white Supremacists and KKK members. I am simply saying that the Jews no more are responsible for knowing if Hitler was or wasn't as you are able to judge if Bin Laden was a good representation of all of Islam.