Holocaust Theology

[Ken Rank]

So, if Hitler qualifies as a Christian, then I guess Social Darwinism in all of it's varieties and extremes is compatible with Biblical teaching. Does anyone besides me see a problem here?

Just a thought posed as a question; one that I might pose to a Jewish interlocutor.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

I really didn't say Hitler qualified as a Christian, I said Hitler CLAIMED to be a Christian and it isn't up to the Jews to determine whether or not Hitler represented the Lord in his actions.

 

[FireDragon76]

I would not start such a discussion about God in the abstract of traditional apologetics, that's for sure. It's all bound to be very hollow.

I would say being mad at God, or doubtful about him in that circumstance would be OK. It would be ridiculous to ask a survivor to thank God or worship God. Faith is a gift, its not something you can compel or reason somebody into, especially when hey have gone through a trauma like that.

Alot of modern mainline theology was developed in response to tragedies such as the Holocaust, and the questions it poses. Jurgen Moltmann was a German who survive WWII and developed a theology in response to the atheism and unbelief that was largely traced back to the horror of WWII. His theology had to take this-worldly materialism and the Marxist critique of history seriously. In this way he is the grandfather of Liberation Theology. So that might be good reading for a subject like this.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I really didn't say Hitler qualified as a Christian, I said Hitler CLAIMED to be a Christian and it isn't up to the Jews to determine whether or not Hitler represented the Lord in his actions.

Sure, but I can see how they might be confused on the issue of what a "Christian is" since they've dealt with nearly 2,000 years of challenges to their Semitic oriented identity from various European powers.

 

[Ken Rank]

Sure, but I can see how they might be confused on the issue of what a "Christian is" since they've dealt with nearly 2,000 years of challenges to their Semitic oriented identity from various European powers.

They have dealt with a lot brother. Though over 20,000 of them believed Yeshua was Messiah (Acts 21:20) most of them, because they were under Roman occupation, looked for messiah be David (the Conquering King) and were not looking for messiah ben Joseph (the suffering servant) and thus either rejected him or gave him no consideration (the 2-messiah teaching was common in that day). After that, Christians began to call them Christ killers, there were times when they were forced to eat pork to prove they were Christian, there were forced baptisms, even other instances of death in Jesus name. Yet, amazingly... there are small group today who are reconsidering Yeshua. Some Orthodox rabbis now accept him as a rabbi or teach and certainly as a Jew. They is a HUGE step from their view of him just 20-30 years ago.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Of course, the bible says salvation is open to all... jews and gentiles. But the jewish religion rejects Jesus and is therefore anti-christ. So it comes down to each individual person's belief and some jews (ethnicity) may be christians and some jews (religion) are not.

But I find what you've effectively said is that all people are people and none deserve condemnation or to go to hell, regardless of cultural misapplications. Therefore God is inherently evil for drawing distinctions among people for cultural misapplications. Is that not what you're implying?

Absolutely not. But, I do appreciate that fact that you've asked for clarification. The point of the OP is understanding how you would approach someone - specifically a Jewish person -- who was in a Nazi concentration camp. If I were to encounter such a Jewish person, and there's few left now, I wouldn't make it my aim to hit them over the head with "Gospel Truth." My approach takes into account that people who may be anti-Christian can also be blinded by either Satan or Self; but Grace and Mercy in Christ should ALWAYS come before judgment.

And you think I think God is "inherently evil" for drawing distinctions? How did you ever arrive (or derive) that conclusion, Serendipper?

By the way, you might want to do some homework and read up on Heinrich Gruber. I think he set an example for Christians to follow to some extent.

2PhiloVoid

 

[SolomonVII]

It would not be hard to make the argument to them that absolute evil exists.
But as long as they are still surviving, there very act of carrying on is evidence that goodness is the more powerful motivator in their own lives.
To accept that Satan and evil are ultimately in control makes sense of the commentary from Job's wife to curse God and die. Job;s wife would be correct. Choosing death is the better choice in such a world, that world where Satan rules supreme.
As long as there is life though, there is hope that there is something bigger than demons. That is what we all cling to in a world where evil has such a prominent and visible face.

And yet it is the still small voice of God that urges us all forward, and gives us the courage to carry on.
The very act of survival is proof enough that there is still belief.

 

[Heber Book List]

There is a lot of eisegesis and anti-Semitism on this thread. I think people need to remember that anti-Semitism, even on a Christian site, is a reportable offence. You need to be more sensitive to those whom you don't know, who are reading your words of condemnation - spoken by apparently 'committed' Christians in the name of their Saviour: the Jew, Yeshua HaNazarene, v'Melech HaYehudim (as testified by Pilate - see John's Gospel), which forms the acronym YHVH (G_d), whom you now condemn with your own anti-Semitic words!

PS My 'employer', like yours, is a Jew!

 

[Maria.V.H]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

I would say that it is seeing things in the higher perspective. People always think with their brain not their hearts. God did not alllow the Holocaust, this is our playground, we do things to ourself, it was not God who allowed it, it was us who allowed it. Satan whispered in our ear and we followed. Why can´t we people take responsibility for ourselves???? it´s so annoying, every single time we put the blame on someone else, we are so weak!!!!!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The fellow in the video I posted who said he called to God, but got no answer... just beautiful Polish sky.... I would ask him what god he called upon and ask why he didn't call upon Jesus. I don't see what is wrong with that approach.

What if he had called upon Zeus, but got no answer? Are we to conclude that God was on holiday? That God ignored the plight of those who called upon him? The reality is that one cannot deny the savior and then blame him at the same time.



Because you said "Jewish people are, like you and me, human beings and should be recognized as such, even if their cultural assumptions and misapplications of the Oracles of Scripture have kept them somewhat obstinate and/or stiff-necked at times against their Messiah."

It's implying Jewish people should be recognized as human beings and spared atrocities of judgement, even if they deny the Messiah. You have to remember that we're talking in the context of God. Sure, men should treat all men fairly, but God is the judge and is allowed to refuse assistance without being proclaimed to be evil because of it.

No, it doesn't imply that. You're reading into what I've said, jumping to conclusions. What are you going to do, go up to the Concentration Camp survivor and smack them in the face with the Curses of the Torah?

Sure, Jewish people may not see the truth, and maybe they are antagonistic to their own Lord (this wouldn't be the first time in history for that to happen), BUT we as Christians are to extend Grace and Mercy to them in the hope that they will be given sight to see Jesus. Remember, we are to even "Love our enemies..."

Again, I take the Heinrich Gruber approach. Look him up, and stop jumping to conclusions about what you "think" I mean!

 

[Steve Petersen]

If you had to talk to someone who had lived through the Holocaust, what would you say about theology? Why should they worship or thank God? And if they asked why God allowed the Holocaust, what would you say?

Feel free to post Biblical passages.

I would say, 'There is no God.'

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would say, 'There is no God.'

And you would be wrong, Steve. You know as well as I do that the Old Testament comes replete with insinuations that God sometimes allows, enables, permits, or even administers suffering among even His own people. So, for those who claim to be affiliated with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to come away and act surprised is really a kind of "non-sequitur." Sure, none of us wants to suffer, but it can and does happen, and we all feel bad about it when it does (at least most of us do).

We also, whether Jew or Gentile, have to learn to take God seriously on all accounts and not just on those parts that we think will be more fortuitous for our future well-being.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Steve Petersen]

And you would be wrong, Steve. You know as well as I do that the Old Testament comes replete with insinuations that God sometimes allows, enables, permits, or even administers suffering among even His own people. So, for those who claim to be affiliated with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to come away and act surprised is really a kind on "non-sequitur. Sure, none of us wants to suffer, but it can and does happen, and we all feel bad about it when it does (at least most of us do).

We also, whether Jew or Gentile, have to learn to take God seriously on all accounts and not just on those parts that we think will be more fortuitous for our future well-being.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Essentially you are saying that God can do whatever he wants and we just need to shut up.

Tell me how the Holocaust lines up with the purported traits of justice and mercy of God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Essentially you are saying that God can do whatever he wants and we just need to shut up.

Tell me how the Holocaust lines up with the purported traits of justice and mercy of God.

I guess it might as well come out here...................I believe the Holocaust lines up with the Blessings and Curses injunction given through Moses in both Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The Holocaust was yet one more episode in the ongoing drama of tensions between God and His first people, Israel. They've denied the Prophet who was to come (i.e. Jesus), and God has called them to account--as HE said He would. God used Nebuchadnezzar to punish the Jewish people, then Vespasian and Titus, and now, since there was a liberal trend within and among Jews with the onset of the Enlightenment, they (and everyone else included) were subject to God's punishment at the hands of Hitler. God "stepped aside" and let Hitler waltz in like another Nebuchanezzar. And everyone had to pay the price during during World War II (not just Jews).

With that said, our job as Christians is not to demean Jews as being worse than Gentiles, that wouldn't line up with Scripture. Our jobs as Christians is to do our best to reach out to them and everyone else while there's still time to do so. Our job is to extend compassion for suffering, and at the same time, implore people to consider the truth of Jesus of Nazareth as being the true Messiah.

Or we can do what the world is doing today, now even in a ham-fisted manner, as seen among both a majority of Jews and Gentiles, and just chuck the bible in the trash with our Modern/Postmodern ideals.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Steve Petersen]

Are you suggesting that the Jews DESERVED the Holocaust, that they somehow earned it?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Essentially you are saying that God can do whatever he wants and we just need to shut up.

Tell me how the Holocaust lines up with the purported traits of justice and mercy of God.

Are you suggesting that the Jews DESERVED the Holocaust, that they somehow earned it?

Yep, no one is innocent, Steve. (In fact, I'd say the entire European continent "earned" the scourge of Hitler for it's apostasy). And God hasn't laid aside his first covenant, it's still in effect....so the Jewish people are especially under the judgemental gaze of God for breaking the Covenant since they refuse to listen to the voice of the Prophet (and Messiah) who was to come, and has already come. Unless.....unless....they walk through the door way that God has provided by which to exit one phase of that covenant and into another phase (which we call the New Covenant). Then, Mercy, Grace, Forgiveness, and Reconciliation with the Lord, through Christ, are possible--for the Jew first, then the Gentile.

It's all in the our Book, Steve. Don't act surprised. (But, I can understand if you are...all of this is something I realized only recently in my life and in my understanding of "it all." And it was a hard pill to swallow at first; in some ways, it still is.)

Next up on Gods' agenda is, and has been, the punishment of Mystery, Babylon the Great, which has contended and attempted to dominate Europe for way too long. (And no, Babylon the Great is not the Jewish people as far as I know. And no it's not the U.S. either. It's those other people).

 

[FireDragon76]

That sounds like the theology of Job's friends.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That sounds like the theology of Job's friends.

Not quite; Job didn't have a fault of actually denying God's Law, or portions thereof. The Jewish people (like we Gentiles today) have a tendency to obscure bits and pieces of the Bible to suite our present political and social preferences. Job didn't do that. So, Job's friends were wrong to castigate Job for "his sins."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Are you suggesting that the Jews DESERVED the Holocaust, that they somehow earned it?

One more thing, Steve: I could be wrong, (and sometimes I hope that I am), BUT one thing I do know is---all of my fellow Christian brothers and sisters, such as yourself, will have to work overtime to show that I am wrong regarding what I've shared about my current viewpoint.

And I wouldn't label it as "Holocaust Theology," since its not as if this kind of thing hasn't happened in any shape or form before. It's just that it so happens that what we saw during the 2Oth Century was the worst episodic manifestation of the Curse the world has thus far seen. And we should take this history as a warning since to some degree the Curse of Judgement applies to any nation, whether Jewish or Gentile, or whatever, that defies the Lord, or denies the true nature of His Messiah, for too long.

While all this happens, our job as Christians is to pray for people and work for spiritual, political, and social peace.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[SkyWriting]

but it also isn't up to the Jewish people to have to discern whether or not Hitler was a good representation of Christianity or not.

How you figure that?

---> Mathew 7: 12
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

 

[Steve Petersen]

What did the Jews in Europe in the 30's do that made them worthy of the horrors they experienced?