Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security

[Hentenza]

Paul knew well that he could not identify any specific person as being delfintivel;y numbered among the elect. In Phil 3 He even said that he had not yet attained to the ressurection but was strivng towards that end.

Paul knew exactly who the elect were. In Phillipians he addresses his letter to:

“Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, T o all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, T o all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons

bible.com

Here he is even including the overseers and deacons. Are you really going to argue that Paul was not one of the elect? Really? Your argument is total nonsense.

We think His burden is light. You speak as if it's non-existent.

I’m just quoting the holy scriptures.

““Come to Me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is comfortable, and My burden is light.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭28‬-‭30‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 11:28-30 “Come to Me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke | New American Standard Bible -

“Come to Me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke

bible.com

You dont believe scriptures? Why do you think that His yoke is not comfortable and His burden not light? Is that because of your churches teaching‘s about faith plus works? Are you good enough to attain salvation? Are you works sufficient?

And our's isn't faith plus works of the law. It's faith plus good fruit, works of grace, good works that we were created in Chrsit Jesus to do, that God prepared in advance, works that are done not out of a sense of ovbligation but out of the love that's been poured into our hearts Rom 5:5. "...faith working though love" Gal 5:6

Yours is indeed faith plus works. The most famous verse in scripture will prove your church completely wrong.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but | New American Standard Bible - NASB

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but

bible.com

I don’t see works here. Do you?

Depends on what you mean. Often love can be a hard chocie, involving self-sacrifice. And God's after more than just natural love, of course, but after a love that only he can produce in us.
"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:46-48

And we shall be perfect. Just not yet. As I stated Glorification does not happen until our eternal state.

Getting back to the last part of Matt 5 quoted above: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Thats not happening until our eternal state. Hopefully you know this but you keep bringing this up.

If we're not on that road, that Way, that "jourrney to perfection" as it's been called; if we aren't closer to perfection, perfection in love to put it best, by virtue of our encounter and union with God than we were say, 5 or 10 years ago, then we should really question whether or not we're one of His.

Again, you deflected my post. Address my post instead of posting over what I wrote.

 

[fhansen]

Here he is even including the overseers and deacons. Are you really going to argue that Paul was not one of the elect? Really? Your argument is total nonsense.

I’ll argue that Paul had enough humility to not be rashly over-confident. That's the Christian way. We see ourselves as pilgrims, sojourners, but not quite yet there,

You dont believe scriptures? Why do you think that His yoke is not comfortable and His burden not light?

You didn't bother to read what you're supposedly responding to here?

I don’t see works here. Do you?

There's a reason that faith means salvation and no condemantion, because it means we've moved from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. Not some pretense at light but we become righteous ourselves:

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1-4

How does this happen?
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Thats not happening until our eternal state. Hopefully you know this but you keep bringing this up.

And we shall be perfect. Just not yet. As I stated Glorification does not happen until our eternal state.

It begins in the here and now for Christians. Otherwise we remain in our sins and that means that sin such as murder, theft, lying, idolatry, etc won't keep us out of heaven as Scripture says it will.

Again, you deflected my post. Address my post instead of posting over what I wrote.

Nah, I just reread it and posted the exchange below. The answer was fine:

Do you honestly think that the Paul and the saints who are at Ephesus, who were chosen and already received their inheritance, are going to loose their faith? Do you think that even the saints who are at Ephesus are perfect, love perfectly, forgive perfectly? Do you think that even those with saving faith do not still sin? No one, and I mean no one, in this world, even those with saving faith, are perfect.

Getting back to the last part of Matt 5 quoted above: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

If we're not on that road, that Way, that "jourrney to perfection" as it's been called; if we aren't closer to perfection, perfection in love to put it best, by virtue of our encounter and union with God than we were say, 5 or 10 years ago, then we should really question whether or not we're one of His.

 

[Hentenza]

I’ll argue that Paul had enough humility not be rashly over-confident.

But your argument has no basis. You are not addressing what I posted. I showed you FROM scripture where Paul knew exactly who the elect are.

You didn't bother to read what you're supposedly responding to here?

what? Did you address the scripture?

There's a reason that faith means salvation and no condemantion, because it means we've moved from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. Not some pretense at light but we become righteous ourselves:

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1-4

How does this happen?
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Once again you did not addressed the scripture that I posted. We can talk over each other all day. The basic fact is that it appears that you are unable to address my post.

Romans 8-1-4 begins with therefore so what came before? Hint: the conflict of serving two natures. We do not become righteous by ourselves. If we did then why did Jesus have to die?

Romans 8:12-14. But you just told me that we become righteous ourselves. How is your interpretation consistent with the earlier verses? How can there be no condemnation in verse 1 and then be condemnation in verse 12-14? Are you sure you want to make this argument?

It begins in the here and now for Christians. Otherwise we remain in our sins and that means that sin such as murder, theft, lying, idolatry, etc won't keep us out of heaven as Scripture says it will.

Christ died for our sins brother. His sacrifice IS sufficient. We are already justified, declared righteous. It began at the moment that God stirred our hearts and we chose Him. You will lI’ve a life of stress never knowing if you are good enough to be saved. I’ll pray for you that you indeed see the light.

 

[fhansen]

But your argument has no basis. You are not addressing what I posted. I showed you FROM scripture where Paul knew exactly who the elect are.

No he didn’t. He knows they’re followers of Christ and addresses them as such. It's not some wooden absolute knowledge, as if none could ever fall away. God, alone knows with perfect certainty who are His and who are not.

what? Did you address the scripture?

Yes, go back and read it.

Romans 8-1-4 begins with therefore so what came before? Hint: the conflict of serving two natures. We do not become righteous by ourselves. If we did then why did Jesus have to die?

Who said we become righteous by ourselves? Christ is the answer in Rom 7:25 because through Him I'm empowered to overcome the sin that condemns me to death.

Romans 8:12-14. But you just told me that we become righteous ourselves.

When, where? We don’t become righteous by ourselves, but only by virtue of union with God, by the power of the Holy Spirit. That vital union is the primary difference between the old and new covenants. 8:12-14 follow naturally from 8:1-4. We’re not condemned because we’re empowered to overcome the sin that earns us death, the righteous requirement of the law now being met in us.

Christ died for our sins brother. His sacrifice IS sufficient. We are already justified, declared righteous.

No, we we're more than aquitted sinners; we were made righteous, given the "gift of righteousness".
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

Now we work our our salvation with that grace. God's not a fool-and He wants more from, and, more importantly, more for us, than we know.
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:7-8

Truth be known, you've swallowed a novel gospel, a fair bit skewed, with, again, little in common with the early fathers or early church teachings.

 

[Hentenza]

No he didn’t. He knows they’re followers of Christ and addresses them as such. It's not some wooden absolute knowledge, as if none could ever fall away. God, alone knows with perfect certainty who are His and who are not.

Paul calls them SAINTS!!!!!! He addresses several of his epistles to the saints of that individual church. Let’s go slow here and just address this.

Romans
“to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

bible.com

“To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ou | New American Standard Bible -

To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ou

bible.com

These have been sanctified and are saints by calling.

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus

bible.com

Saints at Ephesus. Not just believers but saints.

“Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, T o all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, T o all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons

bible.com

To the saints including the overseers and deacons.

“To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

bible.com

The saints who are as Colossae.

Who are the saints in all of these? Why would Paul call them saints?

 

[fhansen]

Paul calls them SAINTS!!!!!! He addresses several of his epistles to the saints of that individual church. Let’s go slow here and just address this.

Romans
“to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

bible.com

“To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ou | New American Standard Bible -

To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ou

bible.com

These have been sanctified and are saints by calling.

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus

bible.com

Saints at Ephesus. Not just believers but saints.

“Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, T o all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, T o all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons

bible.com

To the saints including the overseers and deacons.

“To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

bible.com

The saints who are as Colossae.

Who are the saints in all of these? Why would Paul call them saints?

The same rhetoric is used in church services at times now, the pastor addressing g the congregation. That’s the ideal, the hope for us all that we should be oriented towards, But that doesn’t mean the whole congregation is necessarily heaven-bound or that I can definitively single out any person as such. But even if I could, or even if Paul is speakning generally to whomever the title actually fits, that doesn’t mean that we can apply that rubric to ourselves just because we‘ve decided to. God knows, and wants all to be saved; humans are the wildcard.

 

[fhansen]

I'm talking what you call duplicitous, and God's "duplicitousness" in commanding Pharaoh to obey what God had hardened his heart against so that he could not obey. . .which you call duplicitous.
So according to you, God is duplicitous.

But as you already know I never said that God was duplicitous with Pharoah. Adam knew God and His will-and the story says nothing about God hardening Adam’s heart. Pharoah didn’t even know God, let alone believe in Him or any hearsay regarding His will. And God knew that-and knew that Pharoah would pursue his own agenda- and even if God gave Pharoah an extra push towards that same agenda everything God does since the Fall is part of His overall plan to save fallen man, to bring man back to Himself and obedience of His will, for our highest good. God’s most basic desire is this, as made known to Adam: that creation obey His will. Only then can peace, harmony, wholeness, happiness, justice, life, etc reign in His universe. And only rational beings with the gift of free will can possibly deny and reject His will. So now, patiently working in and through a fallen creation, God had Moses tell Pharaoh, a fallen being, His will, knowing full-well that he wouldn’t acknowledge it, let alone do it, until finally, after the loss of his own son, Pharaoh finally acquiesced. And even then he did not believe in God. But ultimately God’s will was done anyway: the people were freed. But not so with Adam, as far as we know at this point.

The point is that coming back to God involves struggle and time. And God uses various means to accomplish this, working in and through man. Adam was innocent, free from covetousness, greed, concupiscence while Pharaoh was fallen and therefore full of all of those things. God does not oppose Himself or put obstacles in the way of His own plans. Rather He works with what he has, to ultimately bring a greater good out of the evil that resulted in humankind due to Adam’s original choice.

 

[Aaron112]

Why would Paul call them saints?

Why does God point out in the book of Revelation in the letters to the assemblies how many have sinned, erred, either fallen away from the truth or falling or in danger of falling ;
and still shows that some/ not many?/ few/ still hold fast to the truth, to Jesus, and warning them not to give up , not to lose their souls or whatever the way others did ?

 

[Hentenza]

The same rhetoric is used in church services at times now, the pastor addressing g the congregation. That’s the ideal, the hope for us all that we should be oriented towards, But that doesn’t mean the whole congregation is necessarily heaven-bound or that I can definitively single out any person as such. But even if I could, or even if Paul is speakning generally to whomever the title actually fits, that doesn’t mean that we can apply that rubric to ourselves just because we‘ve decided to. God knows, and wants all to be saved; humans are the wildcard.

You have zero evidence for your interpretation. Lack of evidence is not going to help your argument. I have scripture that you just trivialized and devalued for whatever motivation you have.

In my years as a Christian going to services and as a deacon for my church I don’t recall ever hearing “hagios” used in this context for other than actual saints. So until you provide evidence my argument still stands.

 

[Aaron112]

Jesus tells us who they are and scripture nowhere tells us to be concerned with our status of elect vs. non-elect.

He gives many warnings ....
and also, the only time He says "be terrified" is concerning : be terrified that anyone of you (who think they are saved) does not make it...

 

[Aaron112]

To all the saints whom God has blessed with sonship, union with Jesus, born again bairds in His care by His Doing,
beware always of the lion prowling about seeking whom he may devour (when God permits and as God Himself warns).....
beware , all you saints (who are saints in this evil world) , of the wolves in sheeps clothing, the false teachers, the false profits and false prophets , and the false teachings, the false gospels, that overwhelm the world and the people thereof.

Who are the saints ? They are by God's determination, and happen to be mingled or surrounded by multitudes who will be resurrected to destruction instead of to eternal life.

 

[fhansen]

You have zero evidence for your interpretation.

And IMO you're engaging in an unnecessary wooden interpretation to support a particular theology.

 

[Hentenza]

And IMO you're engaging in an unnecessary wooden interpretation to support a particular theology.

Nah. Just following the words as spoken. You are the one that denies the simple interpretation to support your particular theology.

 

[fhansen]

Nah. Just following the words as spoken. You are the one that denies the simple interpretation to support your particular theology.

Ok, well, keep track of everyone who you're sure is a saint and double-check when you get up there and I'll keep trackof everyone I think is probably a saint and if I make it up there too we'll compare noites.

 

[Hentenza]

Ok, well, keep track of everyone who you're sure is a saint and double-check when you get up there and I'll keep trackof everyone I think is probably a saint and if I make it up there too we'll compare noites.

Don’t have to. Paul has already done that.

 

[fhansen]

Don’t have to. Paul has already done that.

Oh, no contemporary folk you can point to?

 

[Hentenza]

Oh, no contemporary folk you can point to?

And this is relevant how? You are yet to properly address scripture. Your evidence please?

 

[fhansen]

And this is relevant how? You are yet to properly address scripture. Your evidence please?

Its kind of simple. If Paul, a mere man, can know and predict with 100% certainty who will persevere to the end, then I'd think anyone with "saving faith" should be able to do so. as well.

 

[Hentenza]

Its kind of simple. If Paul, a mere man, can know and predict with 100% certainty who will persevere to the end, then I'd think anyone with "saving faith" should be able to do so. as well.

But you are deflecting. Paul was an apostle chosen by Jesus derectly. I don’t know of anyone that meets that description today. And you still have not properly addressed the scriptures I posted.

 

[fhansen]

But you are deflecting. Paul was an apostle chosen by Jesus derectly. I don’t know of anyone that meets that description today. And you still have not properly addressed the scriptures I posted.

But you were using Paul to support the idea that we can know.