Hell

[ClementofA]

except that's not what we profess. that argument might work against a Calvinist, but not us. and if the truth of the eternity of hell offends people, that is not the Church's problem.

What do you profess re the eternity of hell's torments? That it will be a walk in the park? Do all who died as babies, 5, 10, 15 & 20 year olds go to heaven or hell?

and your arguments here are based on emotion, not what Scripture or the Fathers say.

IMO they are based on historical facts, logic, reason, common sense & fully backed up by Scripture as well as by what some ECF said & a great number of individuals (at times possibly a majority) in the early church believed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

IMO they are based on historical facts, logic, reason, common sense & fully backed up by Scripture as well as by what some ECF said & a great number of individuals (at times possibly a majority) in the early church believed.

If in fact (which I never saw) there was ever a majority who believed this,
at any time,
surely they must have had a group name or identity then.
Who were they ? (as a group identity)

 

[ClementofA]

If in fact (which I never saw) there was ever a majority who believed this,
at any time,
surely they must have had a group name or identity then.
Who were they ? (as a group identity)

I suppose they called themselves "Christians", the "church",
the "body of Christ", etc, just like any other "saints" of that time. Just as they do today. See:

Early church opposition to endless hell

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I suppose they called themselves "Christians", the "church",
the "body of Christ", etc, just like any other "saints" of that time. Just as they do today. See:

Sorry, no.
That source was discredited long ago.
Any other ... any reliable source ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What do you profess re the eternity of hell's torments? That it will be a walk in the park? Do all who died as babies, 5, 10, 15 & 20 year olds go to heaven or hell?

no...not a walk in the park. and no, all who died as youth go to hell. you really don't know that much about our eschatology.

IMO they are based on historical facts, logic, reason, common sense & fully backed up by Scripture as well as by what some ECF said & a great number of individuals (at times possibly a majority) in the early church believed.

and here you show you don't know how the early Church functioned, and the only reason behind your choice is your opinion. we don't care about anyone's personal opinion when it comes to doctrine.

 

[ClementofA]

no...not a walk in the park. and no, all who died as youth go to hell. you really don't know that much about our eschatology.

and here you show you don't know how the early Church functioned, and the only reason behind your choice is your opinion. we don't care about anyone's personal opinion when it comes to doctrine.

In a debating forum, i don't find such comments (repeated over & over again as you do), convincing. There would be no point for the forum if that's all the EO's here did. Unlike you, however, other EO have engaged the actual points made, e.g. re the Luke 16:19-31 passage being a "parable" or not, not just by making comments such as "you really don't know that much about our eschatology" and "we don't care about anyone's personal opinion when it comes to doctrine".

 

[prodromos]

I remember reading an old letter from the 19th century that ended with the words, "sorry for the length of this letter but I didn't have time to write a shorter one."

Totally unrelated, but that quote reminds me of the "letter from an Irish mother";
Written at the bottom of the letter,
"P.S. we were going to send you some money, but we had already sealed the envelope"

 

[ArmyMatt]

In a debating forum, i don't find such comments (repeated over & over again as you do), convincing. There would be no point for the forum if that's all the EO's here did. Unlike you, however, other EO have engaged the actual points made, e.g. re the Luke 16:19-31 passage being a "parable" or not, not just by making comments such as "you really don't know that much about our eschatology" and "we don't care about anyone's personal opinion when it comes to doctrine".

it's tough to debate someone who only stawmans your points and doesn't address points already given.

 

[ClementofA]

Sorry, no.
That source was discredited long ago.

No, it wasn't.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Great quote I just saw, very applicable: "Try to forget all that you have "received by tradition," and ask
from
whom
you learned this or that. Be prepared and ready to unlearn anything that you may have received
from men, and learn afresh from the Word of God HIMSELF."

 

[ClementofA]

no...not a walk in the park. and no, all who died as youth go to hell. you really don't know that much about our eschatology.

You say "all who died as youth go to hell". Really?

Do you believe hell is endless torments? If so, then how does it differ from what i said before:

Because if you don't, there are many millions who have already left the church over what they see as a monstrous hypocritical characterization of a God Who is out of one side of the mouth presented as Love Omnipotent & the other side as something infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You say "all who died as youth go to hell". Really?

Do you believe hell is endless torments? If so, then how does it differ from what i said before:

Because if you don't, there are many millions who have already left the church over what they see as a monstrous hypocritical characterization of a God Who is out of one side of the mouth presented as Love Omnipotent & the other side as something infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

that was a misquote. the "no" was that we don't believe all youth go to hell.

yes, hell is endless. as to your last point, the truth of hell's eternity is not based on people not liking that it exists. if it is true, it's not the Church's problem any if they walk away.

 

[prodromos]

Great quote I just saw, very applicable: "Try to forget all that you have "received by tradition," and ask
from
whom
you learned this or that. Be prepared and ready to unlearn anything that you may have received
from men, and learn afresh from the Word of God itself."

that should read "Word of God Himself".

 

[ClementofA]

yes, hell is endless. as to your last point, the truth of hell's eternity is not based on people not liking that it exists.

It's not a matter of liking anything, but that biblical truth opposes the endlessness of torments.

Additionally endless torments by a God Who is Love Omnipotent is illogical. It makes Him a monster infinitely worse than all the sadists of human history combined.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's not a matter of liking anything, but that biblical truth opposes the endlessness of torments.

This doesn't change the rest. There is sufficient Scripture that indicates an end to the lives who opposed Jesus, who rejected Him, who were never saved.

So the following which is unrelated is illogical, and contrary to Scripture and immoral because
it opposes all Scripture and is without understanding as God gives/reveals >>>

Additionally endless torments by a God Who is Love Omnipotent is illogical. It makes Him a monster infinitely worse than all the sadists of human history combined.

When someone dies dead in sin, Scripture is totally clear that they never enter heaven, they never receive eternal life.

THe possibility of suffering without end doesn't change this.
Nor does the possibility of simply after a time being ended, gone.

God's Judgment is Perfect, and not changeable to accomodate your emotions nor your ideas.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I agree that many theologies out there characterize God as a monster.

(WE DO NOT BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING)

God created you for the sole purpose of tormenting you forever.

God didn't choose some to be elect so there is no possibility of them ever being saved.

God's supposed election is purely arbitrary, not based on anything the person does, thinks, or is - just God's whim.

God torments people forever just to prove He can.

(WE DO NOT BELIEVE THE ABOVE ITALICIZED STATEMENTS!)

Those kinds of theologies make God a monster. Trying to reconcile those kinds of theologies that describe such a monstrous God with "God is love" have driven folks away. Those are NOT what we teach.

God gives man the dignity of free will. If a man truly rejects God's mercy, He isn't going to force it on them. He will still love such a person. But we all have the dignity of choice. Our choices affect who we become.

If our beliefs, actions, heart, etc. incline us toward God, and we become very much like Christ - transformed, in this life, as we are supposed to do according to the Gospel, with the help of the grace of God, then we have every reason to hope in Christ, to love His appearing, and in that case we will enjoy His Presence forever.

If our beliefs, actions, hearts, etc. incline us away from God, make us more selfish and destroy love in us, make us into creatures very unlike Christ ... then we have every reason to fear His appearing, to fear standing before Him, we may hate and reject the love of God. Still, He will be there, and we will no longer be shielded from His presence as Moses was when he asked to see God. If there is nothing like Christ in us, that very Presence and His love will torment us, we will hate it, seek to escape it, but not truly be able, since where can we flee from God, such that He us not there?

This will be fiery torment. Not because God wants to torment people. Not because some cosmic law demands He do so, whether He wishes it or not. Not because He wants to show how big and powerful He is. But simply because He Is. And we are not compatible to bear His presence. It will be we ourselves, and what we have become, that judge and condemn ourselves.

That much we must affirm.




Now, is it POSSIBLE that such a scourge could prove somehow a motive for people to relent? Maybe, we don't know. Will it BE possible for them to change, repent, relent? Or will they be fixed at that point in their perversity and enmity with God? Again, we don't really know, because God has not told us. We may hope this. We may ask God for it. We may pray for God's mercy, whenever He will extend it and for whatever purpose it may serve, for any person, and group of persons, or even all persons. Then ... we leave it in God's hands. That's all we can do. That's all we know. God alone knows the final end.


But there is no reason we have to think that God will simply mercifully destroy. So our hope is that many, most, or even all might be saved. But we have no assurance, no knowledge. Only God knows beyond this.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's not a matter of liking anything, but that biblical truth opposes the endlessness of torments.

Additionally endless torments by a God Who is Love Omnipotent is illogical. It makes Him a monster infinitely worse than all the sadists of human history combined.

again, Biblical truth only points to temporality of hell if I first accept your presuppositions. I don't.

and endless infinite love can torment, if you don't want to confront it. the damned are beloved of God, and He pours that out on the damned, which causes their torment.

 

[ClementofA]

I agree that many theologies out there characterize God as a monster.

(WE DO NOT BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING)

God created you for the sole purpose of tormenting you forever.

God didn't choose some to be elect so there is no possibility of them ever being saved.

God's supposed election is purely arbitrary, not based on anything the person does, thinks, or is - just God's whim.

God torments people forever just to prove He can.

(WE DO NOT BELIEVE THE ABOVE ITALICIZED STATEMENTS!)

Those kinds of theologies make God a monster. Trying to reconcile those kinds of theologies that describe such a monstrous God with "God is love" have driven folks away. Those are NOT what we teach.

God gives man the dignity of free will. If a man truly rejects God's mercy, He isn't going to force it on them. He will still love such a person. But we all have the dignity of choice. Our choices affect who we become.

If our beliefs, actions, heart, etc. incline us toward God, and we become very much like Christ - transformed, in this life, as we are supposed to do according to the Gospel, with the help of the grace of God, then we have every reason to hope in Christ, to love His appearing, and in that case we will enjoy His Presence forever.

If our beliefs, actions, hearts, etc. incline us away from God, make us more selfish and destroy love in us, make us into creatures very unlike Christ ... then we have every reason to fear His appearing, to fear standing before Him, we may hate and reject the love of God. Still, He will be there, and we will no longer be shielded from His presence as Moses was when he asked to see God. If there is nothing like Christ in us, that very Presence and His love will torment us, we will hate it, seek to escape it, but not truly be able, since where can we flee from God, such that He us not there?

This will be fiery torment. Not because God wants to torment people. Not because some cosmic law demands He do so, whether He wishes it or not. Not because He wants to show how big and powerful He is. But simply because He Is. And we are not compatible to bear His presence. It will be we ourselves, and what we have become, that judge and condemn ourselves.

That much we must affirm.




Now, is it POSSIBLE that such a scourge could prove somehow a motive for people to relent? Maybe, we don't know. Will it BE possible for them to change, repent, relent? Or will they be fixed at that point in their perversity and enmity with God? Again, we don't really know, because God has not told us. We may hope this. We may ask God for it. We may pray for God's mercy, whenever He will extend it and for whatever purpose it may serve, for any person, and group of persons, or even all persons. Then ... we leave it in God's hands. That's all we can do. That's all we know. God alone knows the final end.

But there is no reason we have to think that God will simply mercifully destroy. So our hope is that many, most, or even all might be saved. But we have no assurance, no knowledge. Only God knows beyond this.

Anastasia,

You say God doesn't want to torment them, yet He forces them into His presence which torments them. As if One Who is Omnipotent had no other options. Such as in this world where He doesn't force them into such torments, so there is no reason why He would have to do so in the afterlife. None that you have yet provided, at least.

A Being who Is Love simply doesn't cause, or allow, such sufferings, unless there is a positive purpose & goal in mind, in this case the salvation of all who He would choose to subject to such torments. Yet you claim it cannot be known if such sufferings would be corrective & salvific. If they are not, the only logical alternative is that they are hideously monstrous. And if endless, then infinitely worse than the sadists of all history combined.

So no matter how you try to flower up the dead corpse of unceasing miseries with roses & petals, a rotting carcass is still a rotting carcass, whether it's the Calvinist brand of an eternity of sufferings, or any other.

But there is no reason we have to think that God will simply mercifully destroy. So our hope is that many, most, or even all might be saved. But we have no assurance, no knowledge. Only God knows beyond this.

We can do better than merely hope, since the apostle states "many" will be saved. Furthermore it's so many that it's used in the same sentence, and in parallel, with the number of humanity who fell through Adam:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Whether one wants to believe their church dogma, or the Word of God, is up to them. Evidently EO scholar David Bentley Hart has chosen the latter.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Anastasia,

You say God doesn't want to torment them, yet He forces them into His presence which torments them. As if One Who is Omnipotent had no other options. Such as in this world where He doesn't force them into such torments, so there is no reason why He would have to do so in the afterlife. None that you have yet provided, at least.

A Being who Is Love simply doesn't cause, or allow, such sufferings, unless there is a positive purpose & goal in mind, in this case the salvation of all who He would choose to subject to such torments. Yet you claim it cannot be known if such sufferings would be corrective & salvific. If they are not, the only logical alternative is that they are hideously monstrous. And if endless, then infinitely worse than the sadists of all history combined.

So no matter how you try to flower up the dead corpse of unceasing miseries with roses & petals, a rotting carcass is still a rotting carcass, whether it's the Calvinist brand of an eternity of sufferings, or any other.



We can do better than merely hope, since the apostle states "many" will be saved. Furthermore it's so many that it's used in the same sentence, and in parallel, with the number of humanity who fell through Adam:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Whether one wants to believe their church dogma, or the Word of God, is up to them. Evidently EO scholar David Bentley Hart has chosen the latter.

actually, there are some errors in here. for one, God doesn't force anyone into His presence. we are naturally in His presence since He is omnipresent. and two, love does allow for suffering, if the will of the one who is suffering is set against God.

and pointing out DBH is an EO scholar doesn't add anything. Arius was at one point an EO scholar.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Anastasia,

You say God doesn't want to torment them, yet He forces them into His presence which torments them. As if One Who is Omnipotent had no other options. Such as in this world where He doesn't force them into such torments, so there is no reason why He would have to do so in the afterlife. None that you have yet provided, at least.

A Being who Is Love simply doesn't cause, or allow, such sufferings, unless there is a positive purpose & goal in mind, in this case the salvation of all who He would choose to subject to such torments. Yet you claim it cannot be known if such sufferings would be corrective & salvific. If they are not, the only logical alternative is that they are hideously monstrous. And if endless, then infinitely worse than the sadists of all history combined.

So no matter how you try to flower up the dead corpse of unceasing miseries with roses & petals, a rotting carcass is still a rotting carcass, whether it's the Calvinist brand of an eternity of sufferings, or any other.



We can do better than merely hope, since the apostle states "many" will be saved. Furthermore it's so many that it's used in the same sentence, and in parallel, with the number of humanity who fell through Adam:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Whether one wants to believe their church dogma, or the Word of God, is up to them. Evidently EO scholar David Bentley Hart has chosen the latter.

actually, there are some errors in here. for one, God doesn't force anyone into His presence. we are naturally in His presence since He is omnipresent. and two, love does allow for suffering, if the will of the one who is suffering is set against God.

and pointing out DBH is an EO scholar doesn't add anything. Arius was at one point an EO scholar.

Matt has answered very well for me (thank you!).

I can only add that while I understand your feelings, what we feel and like doesn't dictate Truth.

If you add in one more bit of truth, which I think is the crux for you that you would reject according to your beliefs -

The spirit God gives to man, created in His image and likeness, is eternally existing (as He Himself is).

If that is true, and if it is also true that (a) God has imbued that soul with free will, (b) God is everywhere present, (c) God is love, and (d) embracing evil puts one at enmity with God's love and can result in torment -

If these things are all true, then you have a necessary situation which CAN result in suffering, through no design or intent of God but as a natural consequence of man's choices.

Before you might say such a thing is impossible, or uncharacteristic of God ... consider all of human history.

The sum total of human experience has been incredible, crushing suffering and torment and terror and loss ... every bad experience mankind has ever known that has happened as the result of man's choice of sinning. Although God is love, He DOES allow it, as a necessary outcome of free will. It is this very question that many ask as a reason not to believe in God - "if God is love and is all-powerful, how do you explain human suffering?"

The thing is, we believe God has created man with certain dignities. This is part of what it means to be created in His image. It is a dignity that God respects our free will. It is likewise a dignity that our beings are so precious that God does not consider them disposable, but eternal from the point of creation.

I would also find comfort in the fact that all will be saved. Perhaps that might be so, and might be the purpose of allowing torment. I would also find comfort in the ending of torment who those who are impossible to be redeemed. But what I might like to believe and find comforting has no ability to create reality. What is, is. As God has designed it to be.

He has not told us everything either. So there are things we simply cannot know with absolute certainty.

However ... while we have reason to hope that God might manage to save some or all of those who at one point oppose Him, we have no reason whatsoever to hope that He will simply allow the escape of oblivion for those who are otherwise.

We cannot teach a thing is true only because we hope it might be.