Hell as infinite punishment

[Michie]

Hell as infinite punishment​

When Thomas describes the justice of the infinitude of hellfire, he seems to mean something like this:

Some bad decisions have permanent outcomes for which there is no remedy.
Allowing the bad outcome of a bad decision can be a just punishment.
Some just punishments allow permanent outcomes for which there is no remedy.

While Thomas sometimes uses the language of infinite guilt, he reduces it to a permanent outcome, i.e. if, in the time you have to accept it, you reject the one thing that can save, you have, well, rejected the one thing that saves in the one time you could have accepted it. The justice of hell is more a logical inference than a declaration of positive law.

As always with discussions of Hell as divine punishment, the insight into God is relatively superficial. We don’t have as deep an insight into God by meditating on his justice than by meditating on his mercy. The damned manifest something of divine glory, but the relatively swallower and less proper parts of it.

Hell as infinite punishment

When Thomas describes the justice of the infinitude of hellfire, he seems to mean something like this: Some bad decisions have permanent outcomes for which there is no remedy. Allowing the bad outc…

thomism.wordpress.com

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Hell as infinite punishment​

When Thomas describes the justice of the infinitude of hellfire, he seems to mean something like this:

While Thomas sometimes uses the language of infinite guilt, he reduces it to a permanent outcome, i.e. if, in the time you have to accept it, you reject the one thing that can save, you have, well, rejected the one thing that saves in the one time you could have accepted it. The justice of hell is more a logical inference than a declaration of positive law.

As always with discussions of Hell as divine punishment, the insight into God is relatively superficial. We don’t have as deep an insight into God by meditating on his justice than by meditating on his mercy. The damned manifest something of divine glory, but the relatively swallower and less proper parts of it.

Hell as infinite punishment

When Thomas describes the justice of the infinitude of hellfire, he seems to mean something like this: Some bad decisions have permanent outcomes for which there is no remedy. Allowing the bad outc…

thomism.wordpress.com

In your tradition how do you deal with verses like 1 Cor 15:26 " The last enemy to be conquered is death" , in your way of thinking death goes on for all eternity and never gets conquered. Does this mean that you believe that there will be no New Heaven and New Earth and that 1Cor 15:28 will never be fulfilled, How can God be all in all when most of his humanity He is burning forever, is God in those who are in hell and he is burning himself along with the people he is torturing?
Can you show me from Scripture infinite guilt, I can't find it.

 

[Michie]

Yes, Hell Is Real and It Is Eternal

Trent Horn reminds the faithful of the very personal reality of the devil, and the reality of hell as eternal punishment for the condemned.

www.catholic.com

If God is All Love and is Merciful, Why is There Eternal Punishment?

If I were a betting person, I’d bet that these same people consider themselves compassionate in their concern that women have the ability to choose to “terminat...

www.catholic.com

Is Hell Unfair?

Karlo Broussard, the author of Purgatory is for Real, addresses an email correspondent who asks: "Isn't eternal punishment unfair for finite sins?"

www.catholic.com

How Can Anyone Deserve Eternal Hell?

How can a loving God send people to hell eternally? Find out what the Catholic Church teaches about the doctrine of hell.

www.catholic.com

Dialogue: Is Hell Forever?

Trent sits down with Randal Rauser who defends “annihilationism,” or the belief that God annihilates the damned and does not let them exist in hell for eternity.

www.catholic.com

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Yes, Hell Is Real and It Is Eternal

Trent Horn reminds the faithful of the very personal reality of the devil, and the reality of hell as eternal punishment for the condemned.

www.catholic.com

If God is All Love and is Merciful, Why is There Eternal Punishment?

If I were a betting person, I’d bet that these same people consider themselves compassionate in their concern that women have the ability to choose to “terminat...

www.catholic.com

[URL I knounfurl="true"]https://www.catholic.com/audio/caf/is-hell-unfair[/URL]

How Can Anyone Deserve Eternal Hell?

How can a loving God send people to hell eternally? Find out what the Catholic Church teaches about the doctrine of hell.

www.catholic.com

Dialogue: Is Hell Forever?

Trent sits down with Randal Rauser who defends “annihilationism,” or the belief that God annihilates the damned and does not let them exist in hell for eternity.

www.catholic.com

I know Augustine tradition ,but what does Scripture say? In the original Greek.

 

[Michie]

I know Augustine tradition ,but what does Scripture say? In the original Greek.

You need to review the rules of the forum. You are not allowed to debate or attempt to teach here. I gave you the information on what Catholics believe and teach. I won’t engage with you as it is against the rules.

AI:



Scripture describes the final fate of the wicked using several specific Greek words that have been the subject of intense debate among scholars, theologians, and linguists. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Here is what the original Greek texts say and how they are translated:

• • αἰώνιος (aiōnios) - "Eternal" or "Age-lasting"
    • This is the primary adjective translated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in passages like ⁠Matthew 25:46.
    • Literally derived from aiōn (meaning "age" or "era"), the literal translation is often "age-long" or "pertaining to an age".
    • The Debate: Some scholars argue it inherently signifies everlasting, unending time, especially since it is used to describe both the eternal life of the righteous and the eternal punishment of the wicked. Others argue it refers to the consequences that occur during an "age" of judgment, which may have a definitive conclusion. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]
  • κόλασις (kolasis) - "Punishment" or "Correction"
    • Found in Matthew 25:46, this noun is historically rooted in pruning or correcting branches.
    • The Debate: Many argue kolasis implies a corrective or remedial punishment aimed at reformation. However, classical and biblical scholars point out that by the time of the New Testament, it was heavily used in Greek literature (including the Septuagint) to denote retributive, final, and irreversible punishment rather than just temporary correction.[1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
  • ὄλεθρος (olethros) - "Destruction" or "Ruin"
    • Used in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, where it is translated as "eternal destruction" (olethros aiōnios).
    • The Debate: This term is often used by proponents of conditional immortality (annihilationism), who argue that it points to total destruction or loss of existence, rather than eternal conscious suffering. [1, 2, 3]
  • πῦρ αἰώνιον (pyr aiōnion) - "Eternal Fire"
    • Used by Jesus in passages like Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41. It literally translates to "age-long fire."
    • The Debate: In Mark 9:48, this is accompanied by the phrase "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched," invoking the imagery of total, unalterable consumption rather than ongoing torture. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Scholarly consensus is generally divided into three distinct views:

1. Eternal Conscious Torment: The traditional view that aiōnios signifies unending time, meaning the wicked suffer forever. [1, 2]
2. Annihilationism / Conditionalism: The belief that "eternal punishment" means the permanent loss of life/existence after a period of judgment. [1]
3. Christian Universalism: The belief that aiōnios judgment is restorative (based on the root kolasis), ultimately leading to the reconciliation of all souls to God

These topics can only be discussed in Controversial Theology.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You need to review the rules of the forum. You are not allowed to debate or attempt to teach here. I gave you the information on what Catholics believe and teach. I won’t engage with you as it is against the rules.

AI:



Scripture describes the final fate of the wicked using several specific Greek words that have been the subject of intense debate among scholars, theologians, and linguists. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Here is what the original Greek texts say and how they are translated:

• • αἰώνιος (aiōnios) - "Eternal" or "Age-lasting"
    • This is the primary adjective translated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in passages like ⁠Matthew 25:46.
    • Literally derived from aiōn (meaning "age" or "era"), the literal translation is often "age-long" or "pertaining to an age".
    • The Debate: Some scholars argue it inherently signifies everlasting, unending time, especially since it is used to describe both the eternal life of the righteous and the eternal punishment of the wicked. Others argue it refers to the consequences that occur during an "age" of judgment, which may have a definitive conclusion. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]
  • κόλασις (kolasis) - "Punishment" or "Correction"
    • Found in Matthew 25:46, this noun is historically rooted in pruning or correcting branches.
    • The Debate: Many argue kolasis implies a corrective or remedial punishment aimed at reformation. However, classical and biblical scholars point out that by the time of the New Testament, it was heavily used in Greek literature (including the Septuagint) to denote retributive, final, and irreversible punishment rather than just temporary correction.[1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
  • ὄλεθρος (olethros) - "Destruction" or "Ruin"
    • Used in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, where it is translated as "eternal destruction" (olethros aiōnios).
    • The Debate: This term is often used by proponents of conditional immortality (annihilationism), who argue that it points to total destruction or loss of existence, rather than eternal conscious suffering. [1, 2, 3]
  • πῦρ αἰώνιον (pyr aiōnion) - "Eternal Fire"
    • Used by Jesus in passages like Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41. It literally translates to "age-long fire."
    • The Debate: In Mark 9:48, this is accompanied by the phrase "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched," invoking the imagery of total, unalterable consumption rather than ongoing torture. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Scholarly consensus is generally divided into three distinct views:

1. Eternal Conscious Torment: The traditional view that aiōnios signifies unending time, meaning the wicked suffer forever. [1, 2]
2. Annihilationism / Conditionalism: The belief that "eternal punishment" means the permanent loss of life/existence after a period of judgment. [1]
3. Christian Universalism: The belief that aiōnios judgment is restorative (based on the root kolasis), ultimately leading to the reconciliation of all souls to God

These topics can only be discussed in Controversial Theology.

Sorry I did not see that this was under a non debating or teaching thing.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

In your tradition how do you deal with verses like 1 Cor 15:26 " The last enemy to be conquered is death" , in your way of thinking death goes on for all eternity and never gets conquered. Does this mean that you believe that there will be no New Heaven and New Earth and that 1Cor 15:28 will never be fulfilled, How can God be all in all when most of his humanity He is burning forever, is God in those who are in hell and he is burning himself along with the people he is torturing?
Can you show me from Scripture infinite guilt, I can't find it.

In your tradition how do you deal with verses like 1 Cor 15:26 " The last enemy to be conquered is death" , in your way of thinking death goes on for all eternity and never gets conquered. Does this mean that you believe that there will be no New Heaven and New Earth and that 1Cor 15:28 will never be fulfilled, How can God be all in all when most of his humanity He is burning forever, is God in those who are in hell and he is burning himself along with the people he is torturing?
Can you show me from Scripture infinite guilt, I can't find it.

John chapter 3

. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved

God does not torture the unbeliever. The unbeliever places himself in torture by refusing to come into the light. Belief is not simple mental concept, but actually doing what Our Lord has said in Matthew 16


24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it


The reprobate refuse to give up there evil deeds and prefer to stay in darkness. God gives us free will, we have to repent and believe the Gospel to be saved. That involves self denial and humiliation. Pride is the sin of Satan and his angels, “we will not serve” if our pride does not allow us to repent, then we are as the devil and his angels “there was no longer any place found for them in heaven” Rev 12:8

When one’s will is fixed in pride, there is no place in heaven for them. They are as Esau. There is no space for repentance though he sought it diligently with tears

Hebrews 12

16- Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau; who for one mess, sold his first birthright 17 For know ye that afterwards, when he desired to inherit the benediction, he was rejected; for he found no place of repentance, although with tears he had sought it.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

John chapter 3

. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved

God does not torture the unbeliever. The unbeliever places himself in torture by refusing to come into the light. Belief is not simple mental concept, but actually doing what Our Lord has said in Matthew 16


24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it


The reprobate refuse to give up there evil deeds and prefer to stay in darkness. God gives us free will, we have to repent and believe the Gospel to be saved. That involves self denial and humiliation. Pride is the sin of Satan and his angels, “we will not serve” if our pride does not allow us to repent, then we are as the devil and his angels “there was no longer any place found for them in heaven” Rev 12:8

When one’s will is fixed in pride, there is no place in heaven for them. They are as Esau. There is no space for repentance though he sought it diligently with tears

Hebrews 12

16- Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau; who for one mess, sold his first birthright 17 For know ye that afterwards, when he desired to inherit the benediction, he was rejected; for he found no place of repentance, although with tears he had sought it.

You avoided the premise of my post. If death goes on for all eternity how did Jesus conquer it?

 

[Michie]

The Church does not teach that. Regardless of the thoughts of Rahner. The Diary of Saint Faustina describes her visions of hell and it being a very real place.

 

[RileyG]

Some people use divorce as an analogy to hell.

Even though (earthly/human) life is temporal, divorce is (usually) permanent because something PERMANENTLY went wrong.

Essentially, the souls in hell said "No" to God forever. So God respected their choice.

God respects human free will.

 

[Michie]

AI:

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that Hell is an eternal state of conscious punishment for those who die in a state of mortal sin.

Key aspects of the Catholic view on Hell include:

• Eternal Conscious Torment: The Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms that the souls of those who die in mortal sin descend into Hell immediately after death, where they suffer the "punishments of hell, 'eternal fire'". [1]
• • The "Pain of Loss": The primary and most severe punishment of Hell is not just physical fire, but the eternal "pain of loss"—the absolute, conscious separation from God, in whom alone man finds life and happiness. [1, 2]
  • No Second Chances: The Church teaches that God does not send souls to Hell; rather, individuals irrevocably choose to separate themselves from God's love. Because the choice to reject God becomes permanent at the moment of death, no future repentance is possible. [1, 2]
  • Hope for the Living: While the Church formally recognizes Hell as an eternal reality, it does not officially declare that any specific human person is in Hell. Instead, Catholics maintain hope that God, who desires all to be saved, provides a path to repentance. [1, 2]

To dive deeper into the theology of the afterlife, you can read the full teachings in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Last Judgment. [1, 2, 3]

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You avoided the premise of my post. If death goes on for all eternity how did Jesus conquer it?

His elect do not die the second death, but are raised to everlasting life
He conquered death by dying on the cross in full humility to the Father’s will, descending into Sheol and setting the captives free.
Death only goes on for eternity for those who lack or do not want to deny themselves and follow Jesus.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

His elect do not die the second death, but are raised to everlasting life
He conquered death by dying on the cross in full humility to the Father’s will, descending into Sheol and setting the captives free.
Death only goes on for eternity for those who lack or do not want to deny themselves and follow Jesus.

So in your tradition death is only partly conquered but mostly goes on for all eternity, sin also goes on for all eternity.
This is why I can not stay in this tradition, it is not serious about death and sin, For God to stick death and sin in the corner and keep it under control for all eternity is not dealing with sin and death but it like put it in the closet and forget it. The tradition and lense I see God through is that he is Love and he will win over all his creation from Love and all his enemies will become allies, and sin and death will be annihilated for all eternity. Now that's a great God one who wins over the enemy by love not evil, God does not win over evil with evil but with Love, which is his essence.
If this is not true then God is no different from the Greek and Roman gods, not the God of love, life and light and in him is no darkness.
There is no way that an eternal hell is not darkness but love.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

So in your tradition death is only partly conquered but mostly goes on for all eternity, sin also goes on for all eternity.
This is why I can not stay in this tradition, it is not serious about death and sin, For God to stick death and sin in the corner and keep it under control for all eternity is not dealing with sin and death but it like put it in the closet and forget it. The tradition and lense I see God through is that he is Love and he will win over all his creation from Love and all his enemies will become allies, and sin and death will be annihilated for all eternity. Now that's a great God one who wins over the enemy by love not evil, God does not win over evil with evil but with Love, which is his essence.
If this is not true then God is no different from the Greek and Roman gods, not the God of love, life and light and in him is no darkness.
There is no way that an eternal hell is not darkness but love.

You appeal to God’s mercy, but neglect His justice.

Your view would lead to a mockery of the Gospel, which could be changed to sin all you want, there is no hell. NO! God is not mocked, what ever is sown shall be reaped

Your error is in thinking hell is evil. It is a place for the evil, but not evil in itself. Where else would they go if there is no longer any space found for them in heaven? If they wish eternal separation from God, the source of all being, what good could they possibly obtain?

We live in the time of mercy. Repent and believe the Gospel while you still have the free will to do so. Deny yourself, give up sin and take up your cross. That is the path to the kingdom

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You appeal to God’s mercy, but neglect His justice.

Your view would lead to a mockery of the Gospel, which could be changed to sin all you want, there is no hell. NO! God is not mocked, what ever is sown shall be reaped

Your error is in thinking hell is evil. It is a place for the evil, but not evil in itself. Where else would they go if there is no longer any space found for them in heaven? If they wish eternal separation from God, the source of all being, what good could they possibly obtain?

We live in the time of mercy. Repent and believe the Gospel while you still have the free will to do so. Deny yourself, give up sin and take up your cross. That is the path to the kingdom

God judgement flows from his love, God is love and can not go against his nature, if you think that burning someone for all eternity is not evil you have a warped view of love.
The Gospel is that Jesus came and died for all humanity and we are already included because of Jesus, he came to seek and save the lost, he did not fail.
There is no eternal separation from God, if anything is separated from God it ceases to exist.
Rom 11:37 " For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all."
2 Cor 5:19 " In Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation."
1 Tim 4:9-10 " because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially the believer."
Phil 2:10-11 " every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord."
I can not for the life of me understand why people think that God is like the old Greek/ Roman gods and would burn his beloved humanity for all eternity for not understanding him correctly or even for outright rebellion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

As St Pope John II said when he was still in the papacy, "God does not send anyone to hell. They go there
on their own and because they reject God."

 

[Bob Crowley]

We might make the decisions which lead us to heaven, hell or purgatory, but God still pronounces the sentence which "sends" the guilty to Hell.

Otherwise we may as well say the prisoner in the dock sent himself to prison. He may have committed the crime which caused him to end up in prison, but the judge "sends" him to prison via his sentence and the machinery of the justice system.

Make no mistake - God sends the guilty to Hell. They don't go and knock on the door.

As Christ said - Matthew 10P:28 NIV "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

[narnia59]

You appeal to God’s mercy, but neglect His justice.

Your view would lead to a mockery of the Gospel, which could be changed to sin all you want, there is no hell. NO! God is not mocked, what ever is sown shall be reaped

Your error is in thinking hell is evil. It is a place for the evil, but not evil in itself. Where else would they go if there is no longer any space found for them in heaven? If they wish eternal separation from God, the source of all being, what good could they possibly obtain?

We live in the time of mercy. Repent and believe the Gospel while you still have the free will to do so. Deny yourself, give up sin and take up your cross. That is the path to the kingdom

God's mercy and God's justice are not competing interests. He is not a God of mercy in one place and time and a God of judgment in another place and time. God is immutable -- He does not change.

If you research the etymology of the word justice, it historically simply means "right order". It's only with the advent of Protestantism that it is repurposed to mean something punitive in nature.

When you understand the Biblical meaning of justice, you understand it is God's mercy that brings justice (restoring right order) to His creation.

He will not however override our free will in order to restore us to our proper nature and order, and the essence of hell is remaining in our fallen state. And in such a state we cannot experience the kingdom of heaven.