-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Hell.
- Thread starter brinny
- Start date
- Status
dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
It's true. How much would those who don't exist care? Not at all.
Upvote
0
dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Then you should have addressed the MANY Scriptures I cited as proof. You didn't.
Upvote
0
dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Do you really want me to cite them again? There are plenty of Scriptures that teach death is not ceasing to exist.
Upvote
0
Montalban
Well-Known Member
Biblical verses have been cited to you, not just by me
As to logic, I've gone over circular reasoning, for one. For another I've gone over the lack of consequences your idea has.
Nothingness means that the people who choose to be apart from God simply cease to exist
It's called an 'analogy'. You asked how could there be a place without God, when God is all around.
And that's called 'straw-man' - as I've not argued that. You've argued that, because for your idea consequences cease when someone has oblivion.
That is circular reasoning; your understanding of the bible is 'true' because it is, because it is
This is still your posts having circular reasoning, and also a lack of insight as if you don't do the same thing (sans Church)
If you can show how having 'oblivion' leads to a real consequence, let me know.
Upvote
0
Montalban
Well-Known Member
This is still circular reasoning. It's an appeal to people to read the bible till they just happen to interpret it as you do. Why? Because they then will. You may have noticed that there's a great many Christian groups. What makes your thinking the correct one? Who knows because every other group also claims to use the bible.
Upvote
0
Okay. The consequence is two-fold.
1. Losing out on having eternal life.
2. Losing out on being with Jesus Christ.
This is no big deal to you, I know. I guess you just don't think having eternal life with Jesus Christ is a good thing, and losing out on that is a severe consequence.
Upvote
0
Because I'm just repeating what the bible says.
Jesus said "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish."
I'm just believing what he said. Maybe I am wrong to believe what Jesus Christ said. Maybe I should just believe you instead.
Upvote
0
Montalban
Well-Known Member
But it won't matter. Losing out as you say won't matter a bit if you cease to be.
Perhaps you don't understand what oblivion means?
You cease caring so every thing's at an end so you're not going to miss it.
In war they say that the living envy the dead. Why? Because for the dead earthly suffering has ceased.
Also, ever heard the say "It's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all"? That's because having never experienced love you don't know what you're missing. If you don't experience Jesus now, you're not really going to miss it. That's not at all saying that being with Jesus is nothing. But oblivion is NOTHING. And you're not around to experience it.
It's also exactly what atheists believe will happen to you when you die - NOTHING
Upvote
0
Montalban
Well-Known Member
Anyway people have presented biblical texts.
The rebuttal to this is
a) that they're wrong because they just are
and
b) that God wouldn't want us to be suffering
The first is circular logic. The second is missing the point. God certainly doesn't want us to suffer, he wants us to be with him. But he gave us free will.
The rebuttal to this is
a) that they're wrong because they just are
and
b) that God wouldn't want us to be suffering
The first is circular logic. The second is missing the point. God certainly doesn't want us to suffer, he wants us to be with him. But he gave us free will.
Upvote
0
Montalban
Well-Known Member
Question: "Is hell real? Is hell eternal?"
Answer: It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16; 18, 36).
Is hell real? Is hell eternal?
Answer: It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16; 18, 36).
Is hell real? Is hell eternal?
Upvote
0
It isn't an appeal to circular logic, it is an appeal to what the bible says.
Ignore the bible if you wish to. I don't care.
But then don't tell me that I'm wrong about what the bible says.
Let's look at this verse:
Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
What is Jesus saying here? Do you think he is saying that those who do not repent will be sent to hell to be tortured forever and ever? Or is he saying that unless you repent, you will all likewise perish? How is it circular reasoning to say that Jesus said "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"? It isn't "circular reasoning", it is QUOTING what the bible says. Also, it is NOT MY VERSION it is the ESV, the English Standard Version.
Here is your version, from the Greek Orthodox Church.
οὐχί, λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀλλ ἐὰν μὴ μετανοῆτε, πάντες ὡσαύτως ἀπολεῖσθε.
It says the same thing. "No, I tell you, but if you don't repent, you all will likewise perish."
You can scribble in YOUR bible that Jesus said "Unless you repent you will burn alive in hell when you are dead," and call your version right. That doesn't make it right. I'm just saying what the bible says, without changing it in any way. I'm not saying MY version is correct. I'm saying YOUR version is correct, and you don't understand what it is saying if you believe Jesus said "Unless you repent you will be burned alive in hell when you die."
What does the verse say? Please answer this directly.
Upvote
0
How can you say that death is not the penalty for sin and then quote Romans 6:23 as proof that the penalty for sin is not death? Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. You used 2 Thessalonians 1:9 to try to prove that wicked are not destroyed, but 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says "these pay the penalty of eternal destruction." You say that eternal death is what we have earned because of our sin, but then you deny that this is so by saying that hell is a place of torment. Not one of the verses you used show that the wicked burn alive in hell forever when they die. Half of the verses you used to support your view actually prove the opposite of what you say. The other half say nothing about hell.
Upvote
0
Montalban
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you ought look up what circular logic means. Your only reference to your interpretation is just you saying it is so. I don't get why you keep referring only back to your interpretation.
Your posts also continue not to deal with the verses that actually say the opposite of what your believe - such as what I cited (see reference above) from Matthew.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
