Hell.

[Montalban]

How can you say that death is not the penalty for sin and then quote Romans 6:23 as proof that the penalty for sin is not death?

Firstly, you've still not reconciled these verses with your understanding. At best you have made for conflicting verses - those that say there is eternal punishment, and your one verse that you think says otherwise

Secondly; people have already gone over this before with you. You're confusing 'death' with an ultimate ends

I myself have gone over this three times already - by way of analogy how one can be 'dead' to someone else. My understanding easily reconciles these two things; one is a metaphorical 'death' the other, being endless suffering.

Good luck bringing these two together

You're more than welcome to just continue telling everyone your understanding of the bible just is right, but just repeating it doesn't make it so.

It does seem however that you want the last word on this.

 

[Timothew]

Perhaps you ought look up what circular logic means. Your only reference to your interpretation is just you saying it is so. I don't get why you keep referring only back to your interpretation.

Your posts also continue not to deal with the verses that actually say the opposite of what your believe - such as what I cited (see reference above) from Matthew.

So are you saying that Luke 13:3 doesn't say "No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."?
You are saying that is just MY interpretation. I would like to take credit for it, but no. That is not my interpretation, it is the ESV.
Here is MY interpretation of Luke 13:3 - "No, I tell you, but if you don't repent, you all will likewise perish." My interpretation is from the original greek, but I didn't quote MY version, I quoted the English Standard Version.

What is your interpretation of Luke 13:3? Please tell me. If the ESV is only MY interpretation, you must have a better one. So tell me, What does Luke 13:3 say? Here it is in greek, What's your interpretation?
οὐχί, λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀλλ’ ἐὰν μὴ μετανοῆτε, πάντες ὡσαύτως ἀπολεῖσθε.

 

[Timothew]

It does seem however that you want the last word on this.

I'll let you have the last word, if you tell me what Luke 13:3 says in your version of the bible.

 

[Soulgazer]

Strong warnings against removal from God's Word.

Revelation 22:19 (NASB)
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Accck! I hate superstition. First, the bible is not "God's word". Jesus Christ is. Second, the verse is talking about the book that it is written in. Revelation. The bible was not to be compiled for another three hundred years.

The composers of the New Testament writings, were for the most part, Enochian. The Parable of Enoch describes a literal Hell, as parable. The Enochian followers, which included the Pharisee, were looked upon as being "wrong" by the keepers of the Temple, the Sadducee, which had no concept of an afterlife whatsoever. Heaven and Hell were introduced into Judaism from Greece around 200BC +/-. As such, the Greek mythologies carry more legitimate authority than the Jewish writings when it comes to Hell. Yes, the first Christians also used Greek mythologies as authoritative.(cf Exegesis on the Soul, cf The Oration of Constantine)

The Pharisee used the Enochian concepts of heaven and hell to exert political control over the populous. They were also the main enemies of Jesus. Anyone who preaches LAW and obedience to authority as essential to salvation automatically becomes an enemy of the Johnine Jesus, who preached "Love thy God, Love thy Neighbor", and Paul, who taught that Jesus replaced the Law, but not by Matthew(written by an Antioch Messianic Jew), who disagreed with Paul, saying that Christ came to fulfil the Law, not replace it. However The Author of John expresses a very low regard for the "Disciples of Moses", which is in keeping with the Enochian teaching that "all before Christ were as thieves and robbers".

Hell is a topic best left for the demons and those who follow them. (cf Philippians 4:8)

 

[dollarsbill]

Okay. The consequence is two-fold.
1. Losing out on having eternal life.
2. Losing out on being with Jesus Christ.

This is no big deal to you, I know. I guess you just don't think having eternal life with Jesus Christ is a good thing, and losing out on that is a severe consequence.

How many who don't exist will care? Answer: ZERO. It won't matter to them whatsoever. Alas, eternal punishment is indeed eternal.

 

[dollarsbill]

Okay, I got it - your version is just 'right', because it is.

Exactly!

 

[dollarsbill]

Accck! I hate superstition. First, the bible is not "God's word".

How about 'the commandments of the Lord'?

1 Corinthians 14:37-38 (KJV)
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

[Timothew]

How many who don't exist will care? Answer: ZERO. It won't matter to them whatsoever. Alas, eternal punishment is indeed eternal.

It doesn't matter if they care or not. Obviously they don't care after they are dead. But that is what the bible says will happen. The wages of sin is death. you can say they won't care, but that doesn't change the wages of sin into eternal torture.

And please, I AGREE THAT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IS INDEED ETERNAL!!!
Death is the eternal punishment, and it lasts forever. It is eternal.

 

[Timothew]

Exactly!

Well, since you agree with Montalban, that it is only MY version of the bible, what does Luke 13:3 say in your bible?

Quote it "Exactly!"

 

[ChristianT]

Well, since you agree with Montalban, that it is only MY version of the bible, what does Luke 13:3 say in your bible?

Quote it "Exactly!"

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as well! (Luke 13:3 HCSB)

 

[Montalban]

It doesn't matter if they care or not. Obviously they don't care after they are dead. But that is what the bible says will happen. The wages of sin is death. you can say they won't care, but that doesn't change the wages of sin into eternal torture.

And please, I AGREE THAT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IS INDEED ETERNAL!!!
Death is the eternal punishment, and it lasts forever. It is eternal.

No. Nothingness isn't forever. It's nothing. It's neither never, nor forever.

It's also to misunderstand God.

The reason we say Jesus was 'begotten' not made is because made means that there was a time when Jesus didn't exist. However there was a time before 'time'. And there will be again, at the end of the world. When one exists outside of time there is no beginning or end. There just is. And this is God. It is how we can say that the Father is the cause of all things, yet the Son was not made. Because there was a time when 'time' didn't exist, and there was no 'before' nor 'after'. There just was

God exists and has always existed because he existed before time existed.

I recall once seeing a tv show where a priest was explaining hell. He asked his congregation to think of the biggest number they could think of. He then explained that hell would last longer. However this is also to misunderstand that there will be a time after the end of the world that time will not exist and therefore people won't be sitting around in heaven saying "Oh, I've been in heaven now 1,550,000,0392,002 years. There just won't be 'time'. There just will be in our being with God.

Nothingness as you choose to believe it based on singular verses that can't seem to account for other verses - based itself on circular reasoning - doesn't have a proper understanding of things such as 'forever', and God.

 

[Timothew]

No. Nothingness isn't forever. It's nothing. It's neither ever, nor forever.

It's also to misunderstand God.

The reason we say Jesus was 'begotten' not made is because made means that there was a time when Jesus didn't exist. However there was a time before 'time'. And there will be again, at the end of the world. When one exists outside of time there is no beginning or end. There just is. And this is God.

God exists and has always existed because he existed before time existed.

I recall once seeing a tv show where a priest was explaining hell. He asked his congregation to think of the biggest number they could think of. He then explained that hell would last longer. However this is also to misunderstand that there will be a time after the end of the world that time will not exist and therefore people won't be sitting around in heaven saying "Oh, I've been in heaven now 1,550,000,0392,002 years. There just won't be 'time'. There just will be in our being with God.

Nothingness as you choose to believe it based on singular verses that can't seem to account for other verses - based itself on circular reasoning - doesn't have a proper understanding of things such as 'forever', and God.

I say death is destruction, you say circular reasoning.
I say potato, you say circular reasoning.
I say hello, you say circular reasoning.

If nothingness is not forever, when does it end?
If a person is destroyed forever, and this is not forever, when do they become undestroyed.

The circular reasoning is on your part.
"Death is not forever because nothingness is not forever"

 

[Timothew]

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as well! (Luke 13:3 HCSB)

Right! That's what I've been saying, but Montalban says that's only in MY version of the bible! It must be a weird conspiracy because that's what it says in EVERY bible I ever owned. Montalban says that Luke 13:3 doesn't say that in anybody else's bible.

 

[Montalban]

I say death is destruction, you say circular reasoning.
I say potato, you say circular reasoning.

I have suggested you might benefit from looking up what circular reasoning is.

If nothingness is not forever, when does it end?

It is nothing. It has no beginning or end.

 

[Montalban]

Right! That's what I've been saying, but Montalban says that's only in MY version of the bible!

That is not what I said at all.

It must be a weird conspiracy because that's what it says in EVERY bible I ever owned. Montalban says that Luke 13:3 doesn't say that in anybody else's bible.

Given I never said that, but it's not the first logical fallacy you've used here.

 

[ChristianT]

It actually sounds like Mont is saying you aren't interpreting it along with other verses as the "Christian next door" does. Of course, I'm not him so I can't vouch 100% accuracy.

 

[Montalban]

I will give you a post just on interpretation.

Jesus says that if your right eye offends you, pluck it out.

That's what it says.

I can read this as saying I should literally do this.

I can read it as a metaphor.

Regardless of which option I take I am still basing my belief on what it says.

What it says has not changed.

My interpretation of it has.

Thus when you read something and I read the SAME thing our reading of it is different.

You however insist on a non-point that what you're doing is reading it in the bible. I don't deny that. I deny your interpretation of it.

However you just keep saying it's in the bible and completely failing to show why your interpretation is correct. That is why your argument is circular. Your argument is correct because it is, because it is, because it is. When I question you on this you go back to re-stating your reading; it's in the bible - which as I note I agree with. "The wages of sin is death" certainly is... only your interpretation of that verse is not so obvious

Now you've gone so far to say that I'm saying it's not in the bible.

I accept it says that the wages of sin is death.

I don't accept that your interpretation of this is correct. I have asked you to show how it meshes with verses that suggest eternal punishment.

Rather than do this you've tried logical fallacies such as to repeat your statement that what you believe is in the bible, or to straw-man my post

 

[Montalban]

It actually sounds like Mont is saying you aren't interpreting it along with other verses as the "Christian next door" does. Of course, I'm not him so I can't vouch 100% accuracy.

This whole thread has not progressed, but has gone around in circles because when asked about one's beliefs simply re-stating that 'they're in the bible' is missing the point because I too see that it says "The wages of sin is death"

However I fear that this cycle will continue, either here or on the next thread that this comes up on.

There is a tremendous danger here when people rely on circular logic. I would go so far as to say that this confusion is not of God.

 

[Timothew]

That is not what I said at all.

Yes, you did.

I said

Because I'm just repeating what the bible says.
Jesus said "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish."
I'm just believing what he said. Maybe I am wrong to believe what Jesus Christ said. Maybe I should just believe you instead.

Then you said:

Okay, I got it - your version is just 'right', because it is.

Then I asked you what your verson said in Luke 13:3, but you never answered.

 

[Timothew]

I have suggested you might benefit from looking up what circular reasoning is.



It is nothing. It has no beginning or end.

Having no beginning and no end is the definition of eternal!

It looks like you are just unable to ever admit you are wrong.

I did look up the definition of Circular reasoning, and I am not guilty of doing it. You are in error when you accuse me of it.
Showing support for one's position using the bible is an "appeal to authority", not circular reasoning. It should be valid if both sides agree that the bible is the authority.