Hell.

[Timothew]

You admitted that the NT teaches eternal punishment and you say eternal punishment is 'sadistic'. How are you not calling God sadistic?

Because God doesn't torture living dead people in hell forever the way you say that he does. According to the BIBLE, The lost pay the penalty of eternal destruction, NOT eternal torture in hell. The eternal punishment is death, not eternal torture. Therefore God is not sadistic.

 

[dollarsbill]

Because God doesn't torture living dead people in hell forever the way you say that he does. According to the BIBLE, The lost pay the penalty of eternal destruction, NOT eternal torture in hell. The eternal punishment is death, not eternal torture. Therefore God is not sadistic.

You already admitted that eternal punishment is real. Are you now saying you were wrong? You also said eternal punishment is sadistic.

 

[Lysimachus]

Dollarsbill,

Please try to understand what we are saying. Eternal punishment is real, not eternal burning. Please try to understand the difference.... why do we have to weary ourselves trying to help you understand this difference?

This eternal punishment is that there will never again be a resurrection. Eternally, you are cut off from God. Never again to experience life. It does not mean you will be eternally burning, but eternally you will never again have life, and never will you be with God.

 

[dollarsbill]

Dollarsbill,
Please try to understand what we are saying. Eternal punishment is real, not eternal burning. Please try to understand the difference.... why do we have to weary ourselves trying to help you understand this difference?

This eternal punishment is that there will never again be a resurrection. Eternally, you are cut off from God. Never again to experience life. It does not mean you will be eternally burning, but eternally you will never again have life, and never will you be with God.

It is you who do not understand.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Going Merry]

-Denies thoughts-
God is going to burn people, and people who teach untruths will have to answer to Him too.

lake of fire isn't a joke !

 

[Lysimachus]

It is you who do not understand.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So one one text supercedes the laborynth of texts that say the wicked burn up? Will become ashes? That there will be no more "pain"?

There are only a tiny handful of texts used to support the eternal torment doctrine.

There are literally hundreds that support that the wicked will be completely burned up to ashes.

But do note that I already addressed this passage, showing you where John derived his parobolic terminology from--Isaiah.

 

[dollarsbill]

So one one text supercedes the laborynth of texts that say the wicked burn up? Will become ashes?

Which refers to physical death on Earth.

That there will be no more "pain"?

Which refers to those who are saved.

There are only a tiny handful of texts used to support the eternal torment doctrine.

Glad you notice they exist.

There are literally hundreds that support that the wicked will be completely burned up to ashes.

Right, on Earth.

But do note that I already addressed this passage, showing you where John derived his parobolic terminology from--Isaiah.

Eternal punishment is clearly literal. No reason to believe otherwise.

 

[x141]

To say I see, is for your sin to remain, it is a matter of perception, brighter and brighter until that day. God's word is God and it is passed finding out, no depth, width, length, he passes all understanding. Only the Father reveals the Son and this Son's revealing is in us. If with our mind we could understand the depths of our Father then the law would have been sufficent.

 

[Timothew]

Which refers to physical death on Earth.

Which refers to those who are saved.

Glad you notice they exist.

Right, on Earth.

Eternal punishment is clearly literal. No reason to believe otherwise.

Rather than digging in your heels and desperately clinging to one verse that seems to support you come "hell or high water", why don't you attempt to learn something about our side, and all of the biblical support for our position?

I recommend this book: Amazon.com: The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment (9780595143429): Edward Fudge: Books

 

[Montalban]

Because God doesn't torture living dead people in hell forever the way you say that he does. According to the BIBLE, The lost pay the penalty of eternal destruction, NOT eternal torture in hell. The eternal punishment is death, not eternal torture. Therefore God is not sadistic.

God is not sadistic.

But he loves

Out of love he gave us free will.

He respects people's choice to choose other than him.

People therefore send themselves to hell, not God.

 

[Timothew]

God is not sadistic.

But he loves

Out of love he gave us free will.

He respects people's choice to choose other than him.

People therefore send themselves to hell, not God.

Of course, you are correct. By hell, you are of course referring to Sheol, the grave. God gives eternal life to those who choose to come to him. Those that refuse to come to him cannot receive eternal life from him so they ultimately die. The eternal torture dogma is unnecessary and unbiblical.

 

[Montalban]

Of course, you are correct. By hell, you are of course referring to Sheol, the grave. God gives eternal life to those who choose to come to him. Those that refuse to come to him cannot receive eternal life from him so they ultimately die. The eternal torture dogma is unnecessary and unbiblical.

I'm not referring to sheol at all. I'm refuting your rejection of hell based on a misunderstanding of why people are there.

The 'eternal torture' dogma is as been pointed out found in scripture.

Your objection to date has been 'no it's not' and to state this misunderstanding of God's role in it.

By properly understanding this one understands why the endless hell IS NECESSARY - because people separate themselves from God.

For God to end that, and make them into oblivion would in fact be to get rid of free will

It would be God saying "I know you've chosen to separate yourself from me, but I'm going to end it for you now so there are no consequences for you (as they'll be no more)"

You also need to look at what most Christians have taught over the life of Christianity. And although this in itself doesn't make what they believe right it should cause you to think about your own beliefs on this and question those.

So far, your only proofs for your particular understanding is you saying that it is so, and that everyone else is wrong.

 

[he-man]

I never said in that post either way.. I think you missed the point. I just meant it may not be for us to know exactly what God's way is, and it not a point that should drive a wedge between brothers in Christ.Blessings to you!

Not a point? Then the whole Bible is not a point. We should just ignore what Christ taughtabout the first principles of the oracles of God?

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Why do you need strong meat?

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

 

[Timothew]

I'm not referring to sheol at all. I'm refuting your rejection of hell based on a misunderstanding of why people are there.

The 'eternal torture' dogma is as been pointed out found in scripture.

Your objection to date has been 'no it's not' and to state this misunderstanding of God's role in it.

By properly understanding this one understands why the endless hell IS NECESSARY - because people separate themselves from God.

For God to end that, and make them into oblivion would in fact be to get rid of free will

It would be God saying "I know you've chosen to separate yourself from me, but I'm going to end it for you now so there are no consequences for you (as they'll be no more)"

You also need to look at what most Christians have taught over the life of Christianity. And although this in itself doesn't make what they believe right it should cause you to think about your own beliefs on this and question those.

So far, your only proofs for your particular understanding is you saying that it is so, and that everyone else is wrong.

Oh, my mistake. It's too bad that you were not referring to Sheol, because then your view would be biblical. My objection to the false view of eternal torture is not just me saying "no it's not" as you suggest, but instead is based on a thorough study of scriptures. I've looked at "what most Christians have taught over the life of Christianity." I'm more interested in what the scriptures teach than what fallable men believe. Didn't your mother ever ask you "If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?" Truth is not determined by a mere show of hands, but by scripture.
Explain "getting rid of free will". People have free will to choose eternal life or death. The biblical view does not remove free will.

You say this is just me saying "no it's not." Perhaps you missed the mountain of scripture that I've been continually posting in support of what I've been saying. Romans 6:23, 2 Thess1:9, John 3:16, Luke 13:3, Ezekiel 18, etc etc etc.

But of course, you are free to hold your own POV and disregard the bible.

 

[Lysimachus]

Which refers to physical death on Earth.

You're making that up. You feel that because you cannot harmonize the text, you must create an additional interpretation rather than finding harmony.

Which refers to those who are saved.

Again, you are infusing ideas that do not belong to the text. And by the way, if the wicked are burning in hell for eternity, that means pain and crying for the righteous for eternity too, because they will always know that their loved ones will be there. Their memory will always be there. You are also making part of the universe unclean.

I don't know about you, but I want heaven and the universe to be clean from all sorrow and pain. I don't want to know that in some corner of the universe, there is some mythological pits of hell. This is Greek mythology, and it is not Scriptural.

Glad you notice they exist.

They do not exist. They are "used" to support it, but do not support it. They are wrongly interpreted.

Right, on Earth.

So there are two hells now? A hell on earth, and a hell somewhere floating in space? Huh? My Bible only indicates one hell-fire. The Lake of Fire that covers the whole earth, and all things are made new.

Eternal punishment is clearly literal. No reason to believe otherwise.

There is great reason to believe it. The very first verse in Revelation says that the book was "signified". The verses used to support eternal torment are always in context of symbols, such as the Beast, the Harlot, the False Prophet, or the Mark of the Beast. Every time there is no symbol in the verse, it says the wicked burn up and are "consumed"--all throughout the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Lysimachus]

Rather than digging in your heels and desperately clinging to one verse that seems to support you come "hell or high water", why don't you attempt to learn something about our side, and all of the biblical support for our position?

I recommend this book: Amazon.com: The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment (9780595143429): Edward Fudge: Books

I believe that's the second edition. I recommend his latest, third edition--which has a different cover. It's brand new, and has everything the first and second one had but much more:

https://wipfandstock.com/store/The_...he_Doctrine_of_Final_Punishment_Third_Edition

Also, don't get confused by the fact that the third edition has "fewer pages". I learned that it has fewer pages, but far more content--because they were able to fit a lot more into the pages

 

[Timothew]

I believe that's the second edition. I recommend his latest, third edition--which has a different cover. It's brand new, and has everything the first and second one had but much more:

https://wipfandstock.com/store/The_...he_Doctrine_of_Final_Punishment_Third_Edition

Also, don't get confused by the fact that the third edition has "fewer pages". I learned that it has fewer pages, but far more content--because they were able to fit a lot more into the pages

Thanks, the second edition had tons of good information. I think I will be buying the 3rd Edition. (I got the 2nd from the library)
The more biblical information we can present, the better off we all are.

 

[dollarsbill]

You're making that up. You feel that because you cannot harmonize the text, you must create an additional interpretation rather than finding harmony.

No need to make it up.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Again, you are infusing ideas that do not belong to the text. And by the way, if the wicked are burning in hell for eternity, that means pain and crying for the righteous for eternity too, because they will always know that their loved ones will be there. Their memory will always be there. You are also making part of the universe unclean.

God will wipe away all tears of those who are saved.

I don't know about you, but I want heaven and the universe to be clean from all sorrow and pain. I don't want to know that in some corner of the universe, there is some mythological pits of hell. This is Greek mythology, and it is not Scriptural.

The eternal fire is clearly NT.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

They do not exist. They are "used" to support it, but do not support it. They are wrongly interpreted.

No interpretation needed. Jesus went into great detail to warn us of the awfulness of the eternal fire.

Luke 16:22-26 (NASB)
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

So there are two hells now? A hell on earth, and a hell somewhere floating in space? Huh? My Bible only indicates one hell-fire. The Lake of Fire that covers the whole earth, and all things are made new.

I don’t know where you get any of that, but Jesus clearly believed in Hell. He said it is so horrifying that it’s better to chop off body parts that to spend eternity there.

Matthew 18:8-9 (NASB)
8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

There is great reason to believe it. The very first verse in Revelation says that the book was "signified". The verses used to support eternal torment are always in context of symbols, such as the Beast, the Harlot, the False Prophet, or the Mark of the Beast. Every time there is no symbol in the verse, it says the wicked burn up and are "consumed"--all throughout the Old and New Testaments.

And again God clearly warns us.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

[he-man]

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And who if και ει τις
was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Where o where did that dirty dragon come from?

Hesperides, ( Greek: “Daughters of Evening”) singular Hesperis, in Greek mythology, clear-voiced maidens who guarded the tree bearing golden apples that Gaea gave to Hera at her marriage to Zeus. their parents were Atlas and Hesperis or Phorcys and Ceto. They were usually three in number, Aegle, Erytheia, and Hespere (or Hesperethusa),

They were usually said to live in the west beyond the sunset, but the Greek poet and grammarian Apollonius of Rhodes (3rd century bc) placed them in North Africa, and the mythographer Apollodorus (2nd century bc) located them among the Hyperboreans. The golden apples were also guarded by the dragon Ladon, the offspring of Phorcys and Ceto.

The golden apples figured in different accounts of Heracles’ 11th Labour. In one version Heracles slayed the dragon and took the apples. The golden apples that Aphrodite gave to Hippomenes before his race with Atalanta were also from the garden of the Hesperides.
<Hesperides (Greek mythology) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia>.

Ladon (Greek: &#923;&#940;&#948;&#969;&#957;; gen.: &#923;&#940;&#948;&#969;&#957;&#959;&#962 was the serpent-like dragon that twined and twisted around the tree in the Garden of the Hesperides and guarded the golden apples. He was overcome by Heracles. Fifteen long years later, Jason and the Argonauts passed by on their chthonic return journey from Colchis and heard the lament of "shining" Aigle, one of the three Hesperides, and viewed the still-twitching Ladon. Wikipedia

 

[dollarsbill]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And after that:

Revelation 22:11 (NASB)
11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Death does not mean ceasing to exist.