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Hell is not permanent.

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timlamb

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Soul Searcher said:
Really? Like I said it is easy to speak idle words such as these. What if you find that your faith is incorrect and you wake up one morning in hell knowing you will be spending eternity there. Would you think that you deserve to be there? Would you look up and say praise God for I truly deserve to be here?
Don't have to worry, ain't going to happen. But I know you will never accept that answer, so:
My gut feeling at the moment is that my first thoughts would be, did my kids make it? And what did I do wrong? It would make me very sad to think I was forever without God's Love.
It seems like a strange question for a universalist to ask, since you believe I am going to heaven.
 
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Soul Searcher

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timlamb said:
Don't have to worry, ain't going to happen. But I know you will never accept that answer, so:
My gut feeling at the moment is that my first thoughts would be, did my kids make it? And what did I do wrong? It would make me very sad to think I was forever without God's Love.
So are you saying that you believe eternal torment is being seperated from God? If so how do you reason this seeing as how God is everywhere and all.

It seems like a strange question for a universalist to ask, since you believe I am going to heaven.
Just trying to get some perspective on what you really think of it is all. I have heard many people say they deserve to go to hell but not a single one of them actually think they will go there.

There is something here of interest though where you say you would be wondering what you did wrong especially seeing as how you already said that you deserve to go to hell. Even though you say you deserve it you would be puzzled as to why you are there.. imagion how puzzled those would be that did not think they deserved such a fate.

Fortunately this place of eternal torments exists only in the mind of those who believe in it.
 
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Der Alte

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havahope said:
[SIZE=-1]I've told you before, I'm not interested in your opinion or the opinion of the Jews. I need the scripture upon which you and they, based those opinions.
Show me the scripture or scriptures in the Old Testament which taught the eternal torment doctrine. Scripture! scripture! scripture! Thats what I'm looking for. Understand?

I don't want a commentary on the scriptures cited in the two articles, and I don't give a fig about YOUR links or YOUR posts. I want to know where the doctrine of eternal torment is taught in the Old Testament.

PLEASE SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE OR SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. For this is the only authority I will accept on the subject.[/SIZE]

I don’t care what you want. I gave you truth you can’t handle it.

I quoted Jewish sources because you know nothing about Hebrew and neither does any other universalist. You opinion what is or is not in the O.T means nothing. The scripture was given.

And, unless you read Hebrew fluently, I couldn't care less what you believe, think, suppose, guess, imagine, are convinced in your heart, etc, or what you were taught by blind as a bat universalist, so-called teachers, what was or was not taught in the O.T.

The ancient Jews believed in an eternal hell where the wicked were punished eternally and that was supported with multiple O.T. scriptures. That is what the Jews believed at the time of Jesus and Jesus did and said nothing which proved them wrong. And I trust the people whose mother tongues was Hebrew a lot more than bunch of pick and choose proof texters. I proved that from Jewish writings, which included the doctrine and the scripture, anything you say regarding that is totally worthless, less than worthless


[staff note: tinkers dam, though not a violation of the rules, was edited out to keep the peace of the forum]
 
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Der Alte

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Soul Searcher said:
[SIZE=-1]So are you saying that you believe eternal torment is being seperated from God? If so how do you reason this seeing as how God is everywhere and all[/SIZE]...

And Jesus said, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
 
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Der Alte

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Havahope said:
[SIZE=-1]Imagine that! Even though you and Der say that it is not possible for all to be saved, Jesus said, "With God ALL things are possible.[/SIZE]

Do you know the difference beween the truth and a lie? I never said it was not possible. And just because something is possible is not a guarantee that it will happen.

Another out-of-context uni proof text.
 
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timlamb

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Havahope said:
Tim, since you are here, and I know you believe in eternal torment, give me your insight on the above question. :)
Havahope, I have never looked up all the scripture to this subject. I try to respond with scripture as I look it up and interpret it, I am just going to give you my opinion. Please don't try to make fun or use this against me. It is not important, and I will not argue the point.
I believe, from what I have read and heard, that those resurected in Christ, will be rejoined with our earthly vessels, made clean, whole, and flawless; and permenant. I am told there is scripture that says we will recognise each other, though our relationships will be different. I said, when I first heard this, I didn't want this fat old body back, to many flaws, aches and pains. But I am assured I will recieve it back better than ever, perfect, in fact.
As for those who are judged for their sins, I have never heard or read where they get restored bodies back. Believe it or not, we find the prospect of loosing anyone to damnation heartbreaking, we don't talk about it as much as you think; but I trust my Lord, God.
But as for your question, I don't think they are united with their physical bodies. From the portrayals of Jesus being crucified, and the scriptures, it seems to me that the separation from the Father brought far more anguish than the physical torture. but those in hell will not know the love of the father, I believe they will be quite angry and resentful, there will be no love in hell.
I have heard, "Just as the sinful man burned with lusts while on earth, so his heart and soul will burn in lustful desires that will never be filled"
I have a feeling you are going to have a hayday with this; like how does one burn in the lake of fire without a body. I don't have any idea what the spiritual equivelant will be, but I am sure it will be more estreem.
OK there you go, rip me to pieces.
 
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Merzbow

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daneel said:
Ok. That's 2 universalists who can say they are'nt deserving of an eternal fire before a Just and Holy God.

any more?

You bet. I deserve to be destroyed on Judgment Day, and thus to never see the kingdom of heaven. Through Christ, however, I can be allowed in. But I most certainly do not deserve to be tortured for eternity. I can't concieve of a more dehumanizing philosophy - to see your fellow men, and even yourself, of deserving of that sort of thing. It is simply unimaginable to me. Total depravity is just that - a depraved philosophy.
 
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Der Alte

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EchoPneuma said:
[SIZE=-1]Good luck Havahope. It ISN'T taught in the OT, so you will be waiting for a long time for those scriptures.

Isn't it interesting that the greek word "aidios" that DOES MEAN perpetual, eternal, unending, everlasting, etc....is NOT the word that is used in reference to hell and punishment. Instead it's the greek word "aionios" which has the meaning of "age long".

Since there was a perfectly good greek word that specifically meant "eternal, everlasting etc", then why isn't that the word used in reference to hell and punishment if that is what the writer's meant?

Why, instead, did they choose "aionios"?

Because they never intended to convey the meaning of eternal or everlasting, but rather "age enduring".

It's so ironic that an entire doctrinal belief system was based on the mistranslation of a single greek word.[/SIZE]

Calling a lie the truth and truth a lie does not make is so.
Liddell-Scott-Jones A Greek Lexicon

[size=+1]αιων[/size] aion onos, ho, Ion. and Ep. also he, as in Pi.P.4.186, E.Ph.1484: apocop. acc. aio like Poseido, restored by Ahrens (from AB363) in A.Ch.350: (properly aiWon, cf. aevum, v. aiei):--period of existence (to telos to periechon ton tes hekastou zoes chronon . . aion hekastou kekletai Arist.Cael.279a25 ):

I. lifetime, life, psuche te kai aion Il.16.453 ; ek d' ai. pephatai Il.19.27 ; mede toi ai. phthineto Od.5.160 ; leipei tina Il.5.685 ; ap' aionos neos oleo (Zenod. neon) 24.725; teleutan ton aiôna Hdt.1.32 , etc.; aionos sterein tina A.Pr.862 ; aiona dioichnein Id.Eu.315 ; sundiatribein Cratin. 1 ; ai. Aiakidan, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S.Aj.645 s. v. l.; apepneusen aiona E.Fr.801 ; emon kat' aiona A.Th.219 .

2. age, generation, ai. es triton ib.744; ho mellon aion posterity, D.18.199, cf. Pl.Ax.370c.

3. one's life, destiny, lot, S.Tr.34, E.Andr.1215, Fr.30, etc.

II. long space of time, age, aion gignetai 'tis an age, Men.536.5; esp. with Preps., ap' aionos of old, Hes.Th.609, Ev.Luc.1.70; hoi apo tou ai. Rhomaioi D.C. 63.20 ; di' aionos perpetually, A.Ch.26, Eu.563; all one's life long, S. El.1024; di' aionos makrou, apaustou, A.Supp.582,574; ton di' ai. chronon [size=+1]for ever, Id.Ag.554; eis hapanta ton ai. Lycurg.106, Isoc.10.62; eis ton ai. LXX Ge.3.23, al., D.S.21.17, Ev.Jo.8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr.17; eis aiona aionos LXX Ps.131(132).14 ; ex aionos kai heos aionos ib.Je.7.7; ep' ai. ib.Ex.15.18; heos aionos ib.1 Ki.1.22, al.:-- without a Prep., ton hapanta ai. Arist. Cael.279a22; ton aiona Lycurg. 62 , Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; eternity, opp. chronos, Pl.Ti.37d, cf. Metrod. Fr.37, Ph.1.496,619, Plot.3.7.5, etc.; tous huper tou aionos phobous Epicur.Sent.20[/size] .

2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ho aion houtos this present world, opp. ho mellon, Ev.Matt.13.22, cf. Ep.Rom.12.2; ho nun ai. 1 Ep.Tim.6.17, 2 Ep.Tim.4.10:--hence in pl., the ages, i.e. [size=+1]eternity, Phld.D.3 Fr.84; eis pantas tous ai. LXX To.13.4 ; eis tous ai.ib. Si.45.24, al., Ep.Rom.1.25, etc.; eis tous ai. ton aionon LXX 4 Ma.18.24[/size] , Ep.Phil.4.20, etc.; apo ton ai., pro ton ai., Ep.Eph.3.9, 1Cor.2.7; ta tele ton ai. ib.10.11.
[…]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform

[size=+1]αιωνιος[/size] aionios , on, also a, on Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:--lasting for an age (aion 11 ), [size=+1]perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. aidios, Plot.3.7.3), methe Pl.R. 363d ; anolethron . . all' ouk aionion Id.Lg.904a , cf. Epicur. Sent.28; ai. kata psuchen ochlesis Id.Nat.131 G.; kaka, deina, Phld.Herc. 1251.18, D.1.13; ai. amoibais basanisthesomenoi ib.19; tou ai. theou Ep.Rom. 16.26 , Ti.Locr.96c; ou chronie mounon . . all' aionie Aret.CA1.5 ; ai. diatheke, nomimon, prostagma, LXX Ge.9.16, Ex.27.21, To.1.6; zoe Ev.Matt.25.46 , Porph.Abst.4.20; kolasis Ev.Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg.p.278J.; pro chronon ai.2 Ep.Tim. 1.9 : opp. proskairos, 2 Ep.Cor. 4.18.[/size]

2. holding an office or title for life,perpetual, gumnasiarchos CPHerm.62 .

3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg.Macr.4.

4. Adv. -ios [size=+1]eternally, nous akinetos ai. panta ôn Procl.Inst.172 , cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, misein Sch.E.Alc.338.[/size]

5. aionion, to, = aeizoon to mega, Ps.-Dsc.4.88.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform
 
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Soul Searcher

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Der Alter said:
And Jesus said, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
...hmm yet I assume that you believe that Jesus was/is God. If so I fail to see how this statement relates in anyway whatsoever to the statement you were responding to.
 
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Der Alte

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KCDAD said:
[SIZE=-1]I have asked simple questions to Timlamb (post 608) and addressed Der Alts Jewish Encyclopedia (post 570) double talk and no reaction... what's up guys. Can't find a scripture to counter my points? Try using reason.[/SIZE]

Saying, "Does too. Does not. Neener, neener, neener," about the teachings of the ancient Jews does not answer anything. The ancient Jews believed in an eternal hell, where the wicked were punished forever There was many, many, scriptures their beliefs were based on. What you think, the scriptures do or do not mean is irrelevant. That is what the Jews believed in the time of Jesus and Jesus did and said nothing to prove them wrong.

All the universalists in the world can screech and scream say the O.T. does not teach an eternal hell and it means diddly squat. The Jews believed that their Hebrew scriptures taught an eternal hell and that is the end of it.
 
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timlamb

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Soul Searcher said:
So are you saying that you believe eternal torment is being seperated from God? If so how do you reason this seeing as how God is everywhere and all.
*And the Lord will say "Depart from me, for I never knew you"

Just trying to get some perspective on what you really think of it is all. I have heard many people say they deserve to go to hell but not a single one of them actually think they will go there.
*Admitting you deserve to go to hell, requires a repentent heart, a requirement for forgiveness.

There is something here of interest though where you say you would be wondering what you did wrong especially seeing as how you already said that you deserve to go to hell. Even though you say you deserve it you would be puzzled as to why you are there.. imagion how puzzled those would be that did not think they deserved such a fate.
*You ask what I would think if I suddenly found myself in hell, I would wonder where I went wrong in my faith. Those who go will know exactly why they go, they will understand that at judgement, when they realise Jesus is Lord.

Fortunately this place of eternal torments exists only in the mind of those who believe in it.
*No, it exists at the end of the age, when time will be no more, and everything that is, always will be.
 
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Der Alte

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KCDAD said:
[SIZE=-1]Let's look at this one verse... what are the problems here? People in Heaven can talk to those in Hell... Abraham is in Heaven now... Lazarus and the rich guy are both respectively in Heaven and Hell now... Apparently part of the reward of Heaven is to watch those in Hell suffer... cool... Since all good gifts come from God, God gave the rich man good things on Earth and withheld them from Lazarus and that is why they are where they are now... so it is a circle of life kind of thing, i.e. we all the same good stuff either in our lifetime or after it and the same with evil... (kinda shoots holes all thru Calvinism, eh?)... and how does Abraham become the spokeman for Heaven?

You are sure this is not a parable?[/SIZE]

You neither know nor understand the scripture for in the resurrection they are like the angels in heaven. Didn't I see you arguing something about a physical vs. a glorified body? Or IOW it is not the same human, physical body with its limitations.

When Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in an instant, was that a parable?

Irrelevant, I'm not a Calvinist. Irrelevant how Abraham became the spokesman for heaven.

You explanation kinda shoots down universalism doesn't it? Because Abraham said the formerly rich man could not cross to where Lazarus was.
 
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Soul Searcher

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timlamb said:
*No, it exists at the end of the age, when time will be no more, and everything that is, always will be.
That of course is your opinion and of course you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is.
 
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Der Alte

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Soul Searcher said:
...[SIZE=-1]hmm yet I assume that you believe that Jesus was/is God. If so I fail to see how this statement relates in anyway whatsoever to the statement you were responding to[/SIZE].

Cop out! It is not about what you think I do or do not believe. This verse answered your question.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Der Alter said:
Cop out! It is not about what you think I do or do not believe. This verse answered your question.
How did it answer it exactly? Was Jesus seperated from himself? Was Jesus suddenly not God anymore? Has Elvis left the building?

Do you believe in the [for lack of a better word] omnipresence of God? If so how can anything exist outside the presence of God? If not then where is God?
 
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Soul Searcher

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I did not notice these additional points initially as they were embedded in the balloon portion of the message.

timlamb said:
*And the Lord will say "Depart from me, for I never knew you"
And where exactly could one go to escape the presence of the Lord?

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Even in revelations when it speaks of torment it is done in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels.

*Admitting you deserve to go to hell, requires a repentent heart, a requirement for forgiveness.
Who told you this? words are meaningless, a deep heartfelt desire to change is what repentance is all about. And the requirement for forgiveness?


Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

*You ask what I would think if I suddenly found myself in hell, I would wonder where I went wrong in my faith. Those who go will know exactly why they go, they will understand that at judgement, when they realise Jesus is Lord.

I would think there would be many many questions going through the minds of those who would be condemned for not having known the way.
 
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Havahope

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Der Alter said:
I don’t care what you want. I gave you truth you can’t handle it.
Der Alter said:
I quoted Jewish sources because you know nothing about Hebrew and neither does any other universalist. You opinion what is or is not in the O.T means nothing. The scripture was given.
Scripture will do just fine. I believe I can handle that. Now where is it?

Der Alter said:
And, unless you read Hebrew fluently, I give less than a tinker’s dam what you believe, think, suppose, guess, imagine, are convinced in your heart, etc, or what you were taught by blind as a bat universalist, so-called teachers, what was or was not taught in the O.T.
What, may I ask, is a "tinker's dam"?
And why must I read Hebrew fluently before you would give what ever a "tinker's dam" is, about what I believe, think, suppose, guess, imagine, am convinced in my heart, etc?

And I don't have any blind as a bat universalist, so-called teachers.
You are drowning, Der. Just give me the scriptures and I won't bother you any more.


Der Alter said:
The ancient Jews believed in an eternal hell where the wicked were punished eternally and that was supported with multiple O.T. scriptures.
Which scriptures, Der? Please quote them.
Der Alter said:
That is what the Jews believed at the time of Jesus and Jesus did and said nothing which proved them wrong.
Jer. 23: 1. "Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.
2. Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.
3. And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4. And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.
5. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth."

Jer 50:4. "In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their God.
5. They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
6. My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace."

So much for those wise Jews way back then. No wonder Jesus called those of His day "lost sheep", and was "moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd".
Der Alter said:
And I trust the people whose mother tongues was Hebrew a lot more than bunch of pick and choose proof texters. I proved that from Jewish writings, which included the doctrine and the scripture, anything you say regarding that is totally worthless, less than worthless
I've seen their doctrines posted by you. Now would you please post the scripture to support the doctrines?
Havahope said:
There is a question I would like to ask the eternal torment "screamers".
Scripture (1Cor. 15:44) teaches us that there is a natural, or earthy body, and there is a spiritual body. No other body is taught other than just these two. So, I am curious as to which of these bodies will be eternally tormented?

Der, would you care to lend your awesome wisdom to the above question? I asked timlamb to give his insight on it, but I guess he was too busy or something.
 
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Merzbow

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Der Alter...

Isn't it amusing that in the dictionary quote you listed that 'lasting for an age' is the first definition, yet you highlight the later definition of eternal in an enormous font?

Proof that aionios can mean a limited length of time in the Bible:

Ro 16:25 (ESV): Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past...

Guess what the Greek is behind 'long ages'? Chronois aioniois. The adjective aionios is clearly being used here in a context where it cannot mean eternal. This is because it's an adjective formed from the noun aion, meaning primarily age. 'Age-abiding', or 'age-lasting', can be as long or as short a period of time as one wishes, since an 'age' can be any length of time.

Do you want to know what Greek word really means 'endless duration' that the Bible authors could have chosen instead? Aidios. Look it up - the ONLY definitions for this word are eternal, everlasting, and perpetual.
 
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Merzbow

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And Der Alter, you are completely wrong on Jewish views on Hell. And I mean 100%, bone stock, completely and totally wrong:

Gehinom is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is sometimes translated as "hell", but one should note that the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view. For Christians, hell is an abode of eternal torment or separation from God, where serious sinners and/or non-Christians go (details vary among Christian denominations). In Judaism, gehinom - while certainly a terribly unpleasant place - is not hell. The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in gehinom forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be twelve months, with extremely rare exception. This is the reason that even the closest relatives of Jews will not mourn, or sit Shiv'ah, for the dead for longer than an eleven month period. Some consider Gehinom a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden ("Garden of Eden").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

In order to restore the level of purity the soul had possessed before entering the physical world, it must undergo a degree of refinement commensurate to the degree which the body may have indulged itself. If a person sinned in this lifetime, as most of us do, then, to continue the radio analogy, we have serious interference. This means there is even more cleaning to be done. This cleaning process hurts, but is a spiritual and mental process designed not for retribution, but to allow one to truly enjoy his/her reward in Gan Eden. This cleaning process is called “Gehinom,” or, in the vernacular, “Hell.”

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=135&o=164

Don't like this two links? Do a Google search on "jewish belief on hell" and they will all tell you the same thing. This is ORTHODOX Jewish thought. Still don't believe me? Place a phone call to Rabbi Benjamin Blech of Yeshiva University, a 10th-generation Orthodox Rabbi (who's written many introductory books on Judaism, and the one I've read clearly confirms the above). I'm sure he can give you references.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Soul Searcher said:
[SIZE=-1]How did it answer it exactly? Was Jesus seperated from himself? Was Jesus suddenly not God anymore? Has Elvis left the building?

Do you believe in the [for lack of a better word] omnipresence of God? If so how can anything exist outside the presence of God? If not then where is God
[/SIZE]?


Whether you believe Jesus is God or just a man, you evidently believe in the omnipresence of God. So you answer your own question when Jesus said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?". Where is God?
 
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