Heaven—What is the barebones,minimum requirement to get there?

[FireDragon76]

Sort of. The demand to "accept Jesus," as a traditionally-defined formal confession, or a stereotyped conversion experience, is on my list of cultic works. But in a broader sense a Christian is by definition a follower of Jesus, so Christians do have Jesus as Lord, and accept his call to be part of his kingdom.

For many of us this isn't a discrete conversion experience, because in the US most Christians grew up as Christians. For us, baptism was actually an entrance into the Kingdom. But still, even if it wasn't a separate decision, we are expected to acknowledge Christ as Lord, and ourselves as committed to living Kingdom lives.

Our theology has to fit both Jesus and Paul. Jesus calls people, and requires that we become his followers. He talks about judging people by their fruit.

I believe he doesn't separate faith and works as much of our theology does. Indeed I think Paul's "faith" actually includes both being a follower and the kind of life that bears fruit. Remember that "pistis" can also be "faithfulness."

My sense is that Paul is trying to distinguish Jesus' life based on love with the Pharisees' life based on checklists, whether cultic checklists like circumcision and the sabbath or moral checklists like the Pharisees' collection of rules to maintain purity.

Lutherans are right to reject Christian moralism. It's a pretty direct equivalent of the Pharisees' approach. But there's a tendency to take the faith / works distinction so far that it makes faith look like intellectual assent, and not a whole lifestyle that includes the direction of our lives.

As I've said elsewhere on this forum, being a Lutheran must involve being shaped by a genuinely sacramental and liturgical life formed by Law and Gospel, God's Word. It does no good to talk about doctrine in the abstract, it must be lived out by the community or it is little more than the sort of intellectual assent you describe. Unfortunately, some Lutheran scholastics at times ignore this reality and forgo emphasizing community and the sacraments.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

As I've said elsewhere on this forum, being a Lutheran must involve being shaped by a genuinely sacramental and liturgical life formed by Law and Gospel, God's Word. It does no good to talk about doctrine in the abstract, it must be lived out by the community or it is little more than the sort of intellectual assent you describe. Unfortunately, many Lutheran scholastics at times ignore this reality and forgo emphasizing community and the sacraments.

I have just seen this online, Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod which shows that a person is "saved" and will get to heaven, based on their "good works"! Surely the Bible teaches that no one is ever "justified" before God by their "works"? Was not this the very thing that Martin Luther was very much against, when in the Roman Catholic church? Have the Lutheran returned to Rome?

 

[FireDragon76]

you have not directly answered my question. Does a sinner require to "repent" of their sins BEFORE they can get saved and go to heaven?

If you mean by "getting saved", being justified by God, the answer is no. We Lutherans talk about "the new obedience" as brought through justification, where God gives us the desire to do what is pleasing to him. Yet at the same time, our obedience is imperfect and does not merit eternal life.

 

[FireDragon76]

I have just seen this online, Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod which shows that a person is "saved" and will get to heaven, based on their "good works"! Surely the Bible teaches that no one is ever "justified" before God by their "works"? Was not this the very thing that Martin Luther was very much against, when in the Roman Catholic church? Have the Lutheran returned to Rome?

I think you are misunderstanding what Lutherans teach. We believe our sacraments are the work of God. They are done by human hands according to his command and in his name, but they are still God's work. God gets the glory for them. They are all biblical. They are not strictly speaking "good works", but gifts from God.

Luther taught this exact doctrine, that our sacraments are physical means or signs such as water, bread, and wine joined with the Word.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

If you mean by "getting saved", being justified by God, the answer is no. We Lutherans talk about "the new obedience" as brought through justification, where God gives us the desire to do what is pleasing to him. Yet at the same time, our obedience is imperfect and does not merit eternal life.

This, my friend, looks like a "false salvation and hope", as without "sorrow for sins" and "true regret from the heart" for sinning against the Holy God of the Bible, no person can ever get to heaven!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I think you are misunderstanding what Lutherans teach. We believe our sacraments are the work of God. They are done by human hands according to his command and in his name, but they are still God's work. God gets the glory for them. They are all biblical. They are not strictly speaking "good works", but gifts from God.

until later...

 

[FireDragon76]

This, my friend, looks like a "false salvation and hope", as without "sorrow for sins" and "true regret from the heart" for sinning against the Holy God of the Bible, no person can ever get to heaven!

It is exactly what Luther taught. He was a sacramentalist, just as Roman Catholics are . We don't believe they work exactly the same, but our understanding is that they are more than ordinances, as the Baptists teach.

The religion you are talking about, we would understand as an extreme pietism. We are not opposed to expressing sorrow for our sins, in fact its hard not to hear a Lenten service going through Luther's Catechism on the Ten Commandments and not feel that, but we don't believe it justifies us before God.

 

[truefiction1]

Seeing oneself as a lost sinner who needs a Saviour,would be my guess....Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner is adequate to save ,I think.....anybody out there see things differently than I do?

I absolutely agree with this, with one condition, however. This spiritual condition must be perpetually chosen. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." is the Jesus Prayer. It is said without ceasing. Thoughts will come from evil spirits and we are attracted to the thoughts by our own sinful desires. Rather than embracing and following such thoughts we must embrace and follow Christ. That is why we pray to God to save us instead of following the way of sin. All evil begins with evil thoughts, when the evil thoughts take hold of us due to our own passionate desires.

 

[discipler7]

We don't believe in legalism, but we don't believe people should do whatever we want. We do teach ethical behavior and have certain values in our churches consonant with what we see Jesus teaching.

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The legalism that Paul often preached about was against the Judaizers, a group of Jewish Christians in Judea led by James the Just, who demanded that new Gentile Christians converted by Paul be required to keep Moses Law like themselves.(GALATIANS.2:9-17, ACTS.15)
... Paul did not preach that new Gentile Christians could continue in sin/evil-doing/law-breaking and still be saved.(1COR.5:1-5 & 6:9-11, GAL.5:19-21) In fact, ACTS.15:24-29 says that new Gentile Christians were required to begin their born-again lives in the Spirit by keeping 4 easy or non-burdensome laws of Moses,(= avoid eating blood/strangled animals, food sacrificed to idols and sexual immorality), ie they were given time to grow spiritually in the Law. This dispensation from burdensome laws showed the love of God for Gentile Christians.

Martin Luther taught that Christians would still be saved by faith even if they willfully committed sins or broke the Law. He even put his teaching into practice, eg by having alcohol-drinking parties. He also married an ex-nun(cf; 1COR.7:8) and had 2 boys who died tragically at a young age during the later Catholic-Protestant Wars.[source; Biography of Martin Luther]
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P S - Today, the Jews still falsely believe that they will be saved from hell by having faith in God and keeping Moses Law or God's Law. They are still waiting for the 1st Advent of Christ/Messiah to earth.
... Christians are not to believe in such Jewish legalism, ie saved by the Law, and not by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[FireDragon76]

.
The legalism that Paul often preached about was against the Judaizers, a group of Jewish Christians in Judea led by James the Just, who demanded that new Gentile Christians converted by Paul be required to keep Moses Law like themselves.(GALATIANS.2:9-17, ACTS.15)
... Paul did not preach that new Gentile Christians could continue in sin/evil-doing/law-breaking and still be saved.(1COR.5:1-5 & 6:9-11, GAL.5:19-21) In fact, ACTS.15:24-29 says that new Gentile Christians were required to begin their born-again lives in the Spirit by keeping 4 easy or non-burdensome laws of Moses,(= avoid eating blood/strangled animals, food sacrificed to idols and sexual immorality), ie they were given time to grow spiritually in the Law. This dispensation from burdensome laws showed the love of God for Gentile Christians.

Martin Luther taught that Christians would still be saved by faith even if they willfully committed sins. He even put his teaching into practice, eg by having alcohol-drinking parties. He also married an ex-nun(cf; 1COR.7:8) and had 2 boys who died tragically at a young age during the Catholic-Protestant Wars.[source; Biography of Martin Luther]
.

P S - Today, the Jews still falsely believe that they will be saved from hell by having faith in God and keeping Moses Law or God's Law. They are still waiting for the 1st Advent of Christ/Messiah to earth.
... Christians are not to believe in such Jewish legalism, ie saved by the Law, and not by faith in Jesus Christ.

Are you Roman Catholic? If not, you have little reason to criticize Luther's behavior. All he wanted was a normal life after years of torturing himself. You have no right to judge him for that.

Parties and drinking are not in themselves sinful. His wife was taken to be a nun against her will at a young age.

Luther taught that we could live confident in God's grace, mercy, and love. We are not ashamed for teaching that at all.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Parties and drinking are not in themselves sinful.

See Scripture about this. (it is usually not only sinful, but carnal, of the flesh, and of the world)

 

[amariselle]

I have just seen this online, Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod which shows that a person is "saved" and will get to heaven, based on their "good works"! Surely the Bible teaches that no one is ever "justified" before God by their "works"? Was not this the very thing that Martin Luther was very much against, when in the Roman Catholic church? Have the Lutheran returned to Rome?

Having grown up attending a Lutheran church, (my parents still attend there) I do find that troubling.

The problem is that many take those verses where Jesus says those who "do good" will have eternal life, out of context. Those verses are not referring to our "good works" at all, but rather, to our faith in Christ. We can see this clearly if we look at the surrounding verses to see what Jesus was teaching in proper context:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:24-29

Jesus is absolutely clear, they that hear His word and believe do have "everlasting life", shall not come into condemnation and have "passed from death to life."

We know that this life eternal is in the Son, and that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Jesus is not teaching works based salvation here (nor does He anywhere else). "Doing good" is to hear and believe. We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. It is the gift of God.

Jesus also says this:

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:27-40

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Martin Luther taught that Christians would still be saved by faith even if they willfully committed sins or broke the Law.

This is awkward, since YHWH used him to bring a message of faith back to millions/billions of people....
Out of the darkness, into the light, there were shadows still, so great was the darkness...

Everyone must decide for themselves if they can go on sinning willfully or not - (no matter who teaches them) -

which sometimes has 'apparently' good results,
and sometimes has 'apparently' bad results....

remembering worst of all that while most people on earth decide sinning willfully is not only okay, but even 'Christians' actually believe that in serving demons they may still expect salvation in Jesus, without repentance....

 

[discipler7]

Parties and drinking are not in themselves sinful.

.
GALATIANS.5:19-21 says, "
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

 

[FireDragon76]

.
GALATIANS.5:19-21 says, "
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Just because he doesn't live up to your pharisaical standards doesn't sway me at all.

Luther fell ill and then died while trying to mediate a dispute between two land-owners. He was doing the sorts of stuff Christians are supposed to do- helping people. His last words were, "We are all beggars. This is true". Undoubtedly he was not the best Christian, but then again, who is, but Jesus Christ himself?

 

[Rajni]

Heaven—What is the barebones,minimum requirement to get there?

As always, it depends on who you ask. ◔‿◔


-

 

[RaymondG]

See Scripture about this. (it is usually not only sinful, but carnal, of the flesh, and of the world)

They that are in the spirit no longer mind the things of the flesh. And in the flesh, no man can please God. So how did one judge ones sinfulness or righteousness by what is done or put in the body?

 

[discipler7]

Luther fell ill and then died while trying to mediate a dispute between two land-owners. He was doing the sorts of stuff Christians are supposed to do- helping people.

.
Martin Luther advocated the persecution of Anabaptists and Jews.

MARTIN LUTHER SUPPORT FOR RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION AND ANTISEMITSM QUOTES

martin luther persecuted anabaptists - Google Search

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Just because he doesn't live up to your pharisaical standards doesn't sway me at all.

They posted Scriptural standard, as quoted. (which hasn't swayed you before, so not expected now)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Martin Luther advocated the persecution of Anabaptists and Jews.

So? So do most groups today, world wide and in the usa.