God's Miraculous Protection of Israel

[GW]

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possssed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:

"If a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)​

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial decent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of the Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:

"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)​

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

Therefore conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multipled: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:

"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)​

As Moses and St. Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)​

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:

When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)​

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addresing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).​

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:

"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)​

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world.



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[GW]

The mark of faithful obedience was so central to the identity of God's chosen Israel, that most major figures of the New Testament preached concerning who is reckoned as a true Israelite. The following scriptures show that true Israel, true Jewishness, the true nation, the true sons of Abraham, the true bride, and the true chosen race were identified, above all else, by faithful obedience to God and his Christ:

John the Baptist

"Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. (Lk 3:8)


Jesus the Messiah

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:37-47)


St. Paul

"If you belong to Christ, then you are indeed true descendants of Abraham, and are heirs in fulfilment of the promise" (Gal 3:29)

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. (Gal 3:7-9)

"For in Christ Jesus neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-16)

"Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens." (Eph 2:12,19)

"Beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:2-3)

"For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God" (Rom 2:25-29).

[Abraham] received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all--as it is written, 'A father of many nations have I made you' (Rom 4:11-17)


St. Peter

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: who in time past were no people, but now are God's people, who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." (1 Peter 2:9-10)​

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[NumberOneSon]

Great posts, GW. I think I'll save them.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[k2svpete]

Indeed, excellent posts and a reminder of God's faithfulness to his children.

 

[Brain Damage]

Quote GW-Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it.

So who would that be GW...?

 

[Bobgf]

A very erudite and informative post, GW, thank you.



The true Israel of God, is the assembly of Believers in God and the Messiah.

Nevertheless, disobedient natural Israel, will someday rejoin this assembly of Believers.

For God's love for his people, natural Israel, and his SWORN promise to them will yet be true:



Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

And then all Israel will be saved:

"The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins. As for me, this is my covenant with them. My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the LORD.

He remembers his covenant forever, the word he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant. "To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit."

 

[GW]

Hi Saint 2:

The point scripture makes is that God already saved natural Israel by saving the obedient sons of Abraham and cutting off the disobedient sons. The early Christians were Hebrews of the tribes of Israel, and they were the obedient sons. God saved natural Israel by saving them.

Saint 2:
disobedient natural Israel, will someday rejoin this assembly of Believers.

GW:
Scripture makes it clear that any individual can join him/herself to Christ's Israel via obedience to Messiah and His New Covenant. But there is no longer a "natural Israel," for no human on earth today knows if he/she has any genetic link to any Hebrew of bible times. The tribal-family system went extinct nearly 2000 years ago, at God's perfect timing when Messiah came. Once Messiah came, there was no longer any need for a racial link to father Abraham, and so the family tribes assimilated into the surrounding populations. Israel of the Messiah didn't require racial preference, and so that ancestral link was dissolved and passed away in human history.

 

[Bobgf]

Hi GW,

The point scripture makes is that God already saved natural Israel by saving the obedient sons of Abraham and cutting off the disobedient sons. The early Christians were Hebrews of the tribes of Israel, and they were the obedient sons. God saved natural Israel by saving them.

Indeed, as you've indicated, God has only saved a small remnant of natural Israel.


But in his love, for the apple of his eye, God has promised to rebuild and restore Zion,

after he has taken from the Gentiles a people for himself (Acts 15:14-15):

After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. ​

It's ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it. ​

Scripture makes it clear that any individual can join him/herself to Christ's Israel via obedience to Messiah and His New Covenant. But there is no longer a "natural Israel," for no human on earth today knows if he/she has any genetic link to any Hebrew of bible times. The tribal-family system went extinct nearly 2000 years ago, at God's perfect timing when Messiah came. Once Messiah came, there was no longer any need for a racial link to father Abraham, and so the family tribes assimilated into the surrounding populations. Israel of the Messiah didn't require racial preference, and so that ancestral link was dissolved and passed away in human history.

Today, the whole house of Israel consists of two houses:

1) the northern house of Israel (now extinct) ​

2) the southern house of Judah (now extant). ​

1) The last of the house of Israel (northern ten tribes of Israel) was exiled to Assyria in 721 BC.
From thence, they were dispersed among the nations, to the extent that today, as you've indicated,
the northern house of Israel is totally extinct, found only in graveyards.

2) However, some stragglers from the northern house of Israel (northern 10 tribes),
migrated south to the house of Judah (tribes of Judah and Benjamin),
so that today, there may be remnants of all 12 tribes yet existing in the house of Judah.
These are now all called "Jews" because they all belong to the house of Judah.

 

[Notrash]

A very erudite and informative post, GW, thank you.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

And then all Israel will be saved:

What version is this that twists the words fullness and "and so" to say 'full number" and "and then"? Please do a word study on the greek words for fullness and the word for "so" in verse 26. Include the new testatment study of the word "gifts" also.

Was there ever any other time when a "Deliverer" could have come to Zion? What did the deliverer deliver them from? It's in the earlier verses of Isaiah 49. Spiritual oppression.

Who was to be 'delivered'? "all Israel" but without specific respect to "genetic israel'. Is 9:6.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Beware saint2. These guys are replacement theologists...and Preterists or Partial Preterists, I believe.

 

[Notrash]

Beware saint2. These guys are replacement theologists...and Preterists or Partial Preterists, I believe.

LOL. Hiya Jen, Does that answer the objective question as to the meaning of the words being translated?

Or are we still at the grade school level of pointing fingers at people and classifying them in categories without dealing with the points of difference?

Have you done your historical research into the two other times that "Israel" had possessed Jerusalem after the desolation yet?

 

[holdon]

Was there ever any other time when a "Deliverer" could have come to Zion?

I consider this a Freudian slip of preterism. Because Romans 11 says not "to" but "out of" Zion:

The deliverer shall come out of Zion; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

And there was no Zion in Jesus' time.....

 

[HisdaughterJen]

LOL. Hiya Jen, Does that answer the objective question as to the meaning of the words being translated?

Or are we still at the grade school level of pointing fingers at people and classifying them in categories without dealing with the points of difference?

Have you done your historical research into the two other times that "Israel" had possessed Jerusalem after the desolation yet?

Hsa 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.



Isa 2:1 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

Isa 2:2 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

Isa 2:3 Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.




Zec 8:7 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west.
Zec 8:8 I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God.”
Zec 8:9 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “You who now hear these words spoken by the prophets who were there when the foundation was laid for the house of the Lord Almighty, let your hands be strong so that the temple may be built.
Zec 8:10 Before that time there were no wages for man or beast. No one could go about his business safely because of his enemy, for I had turned every man against his neighbor.
Zec 8:11 But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as I did in the past,” declares the Lord Almighty.
Zec 8:12 “The seed will grow well, the vine will yield its fruit, the ground will produce its crops, and the heavens will drop their dew. I will give all these things as an inheritance to the remnant of this people.
Zec 8:13 As you have been an object of cursing among the nations, O Judah and Israel, so will I save you, and you will be a blessing. Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong.”
Zec 8:14 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Just as I had determined to bring disaster upon you and showed no pity when your fathers angered me,” says the Lord Almighty,
Zec 8:15 “so now I have determined to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid.
Zec 8:16 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts;
Zec 8:17 do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this,” declares the Lord.
Zec 8:18 Again the word of the Lord Almighty came to me.
Zec 8:19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.”
Zec 8:20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
Zec 8:21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’
Zec 8:22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ”


The disciples knew what the prophets said about Israel or else they would not have asked Jesus this question:

Act 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Act 1:7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.



There's so much more...this is just the tip of the iceburg.

 

[Notrash]

Hsa 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.



Isa 2:1 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

Isa 2:2 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

Isa 2:3 Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.




Zec 8:7 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west.
Zec 8:8 I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God.”
Zec 8:9 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “You who now hear these words spoken by the prophets who were there when the foundation was laid for the house of the Lord Almighty, let your hands be strong so that the temple may be built.
Zec 8:10 Before that time there were no wages for man or beast. No one could go about his business safely because of his enemy, for I had turned every man against his neighbor.
Zec 8:11 But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as I did in the past,” declares the Lord Almighty.
Zec 8:12 “The seed will grow well, the vine will yield its fruit, the ground will produce its crops, and the heavens will drop their dew. I will give all these things as an inheritance to the remnant of this people.
Zec 8:13 As you have been an object of cursing among the nations, O Judah and Israel, so will I save you, and you will be a blessing. Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong.”
Zec 8:14 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Just as I had determined to bring disaster upon you and showed no pity when your fathers angered me,” says the Lord Almighty,
Zec 8:15 “so now I have determined to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid.
Zec 8:16 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts;
Zec 8:17 do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this,” declares the Lord.
Zec 8:18 Again the word of the Lord Almighty came to me.
Zec 8:19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.”
Zec 8:20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
Zec 8:21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’
Zec 8:22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ”


The disciples knew what the prophets said about Israel or else they would not have asked Jesus this question:

Act 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Act 1:7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

There's so much more...this is just the tip of the iceburg.

What does this have to do with the questions of the word studies in Rom 11?
Include the word 'calling' when studying the words also.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What does this have to do with the questions of the word studies in Rom 11?
Include the word 'calling' when studying the words also.

Huh? Romans 11 just proves my point.

Rom 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah–how he appealed to God against Israel:
Rom 11:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”?
Rom 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Rom 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”

Rom 11:9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
Rom 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”

Rom 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Rom 11:12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
Rom 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
Rom 11:14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
Rom 11:18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
Rom 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
Rom 11:27 And this is[fn6] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[fn7]

Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Rom 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Notrash]

I consider this a Freudian slip of preterism. Because Romans 11 says not "to" but "out of" Zion:

The deliverer shall come out of Zion; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

And there was no Zion in Jesus' time.....

Interesting observation. The original Isaiah 59 has "to" Zion in every single translation. Every single translation (including Youngs) in the NT has "from" Zion or out of Zion.

Not sure what you mean by the idea that there was no Zion in Jesus time.?
Define 'zion' in your understanding if you would.

Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. Jhn 12:15

Sion or Zion = "a parched place"
1) the hill on which the higher and more ancient part of Jerusalem was built
a) the southwestern most and highest of the hills on which the city was built
2) often used of the entire city of Jerusalem
3) since Jerusalem because the temple stood there, was called the dwelling place of God

From it's hebrew root word it represents a 'sign' or a pillar/post indicating perhaps that the occurrances in Jerusalem were a "sign" showing the way of personal salvation.

 

[Notrash]

Huh? Romans 11 just proves my point.

Rom 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah–how he appealed to God against Israel:
Rom 11:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”?
Rom 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Rom 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”

Rom 11:9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
Rom 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”

Rom 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Rom 11:12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
Rom 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
Rom 11:14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
Rom 11:18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
Rom 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
Rom 11:27 And this is[fn6] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[fn7]

Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Rom 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The response to Saint2 was to ask him to do a word study for the words that his version translated "full number" and also "and then". I added the request for him to include word studies of the words 'calling' and gifts in verse 29 in their original language and in the context of their application in the N.T.

That's all this post is about. It's not about categorizing people negatively (as perceived by their own veiw) into pretertism or futurism or about arguing for one view or another. It's simply about a few words in Romans 11. That those words have been misdefined may also lead one to a different observation of the meaning of those verses. Changes in one perspective of Rom 11 might occur naturally....(or even supernaturally).

 

[holdon]

Interesting observation. The original Isaiah 59 has "to" Zion in every single translation. Every single translation (including Youngs) in the NT has "from" Zion or out of Zion.

Not sure what you mean by the idea that there was no Zion in Jesus time.?
Define 'zion' in your understanding if you would.

Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. Jhn 12:15

Sion or Zion = "a parched place"
1) the hill on which the higher and more ancient part of Jerusalem was built
a) the southwestern most and highest of the hills on which the city was built
2) often used of the entire city of Jerusalem
3) since Jerusalem because the temple stood there, was called the dwelling place of God

From it's hebrew root word it represents a 'sign' or a pillar/post indicating perhaps that the occurrances in Jerusalem were a "sign" showing the way of personal salvation.

In Isaiah it is "come to Zion", in Romans it is "come out of Zion".
The reason is simple: He needs first to come TO Zion, and then He can come "OUT OF" Zion.

Compare Mt 24: He comes in glory and then thereafter He shall send out His angels to gather the elect into the land: so saving ALL Israel.

 

[Bobgf]

The response to Saint2 was to ask him to do a word study for the words that his version translated "full number" and also "and then". I added the request for him to include word studies of the words 'calling' and gifts in verse 29 in their original language and in the context of their application in the N.T.

That's all this post is about. It's not about categorizing people negatively (as perceived by their own veiw) into pretertism or futurism or about arguing for one view or another. It's simply about a few words in Romans 11. That those words have been misdefined may also lead one to a different observation of the meaning of those verses. Changes in one perspective of Rom 11 might occur naturally....(or even supernaturally).

Hi Notrash,

No need for a further word study. I understand well God's plan for natural Israel's salvation. The salvation that will be revealed in the last time.

Was there a question somewhere in your post for me?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The response to Saint2 was to ask him to do a word study for the words that his version translated "full number" and also "and then". I added the request for him to include word studies of the words 'calling' and gifts in verse 29 in their original language and in the context of their application in the N.T.

That's all this post is about. It's not about categorizing people negatively (as perceived by their own veiw) into pretertism or futurism or about arguing for one view or another. It's simply about a few words in Romans 11. That those words have been misdefined may also lead one to a different observation of the meaning of those verses. Changes in one perspective of Rom 11 might occur naturally....(or even supernaturally).

oh...hmmm....