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God does not know the future

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Aijalon, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    I don't think you understand, even two people disagreeing means that AT LEAST one of them is not speaking from experience of the spirit , so it is just hot air... most likely BOTH! ... I say this because so few folks find the way to God in this life [Matt 7:13-14] , so many claim they have...workit out from Jesus' figures [Rev 7:3-8] confirmed by Jude 1:14 and the fact that the saints of God never have died out completely in two millennia , say an average lifespan comparable to Jesus... the answer is about two thousand alive today follow Jesus , the rest are kidding themselves or deliberate fakes making a living from religion... that is less than one in three million knows the God and Jesus ... the rest will be destroyed because they are still sinning by time of Jesus return, have not perfected Love in this life
    ... thus it is not even sensible to follow religion, simply stop sinning so God can baptise one with His Truth , then one will KNOW [but scarce will anyne thank you for telling them the Truth because they have THEIR OWN ideas on what it is... this is how God has said it WILL be and indeed it is how it is... so we know God can tell the future ... also, in answer to your question, Jesus on several occasions showed that he knew all about folks, extreme details ...does this not demonstrate the same level of insight as knowing the future in detail if one requires that ... Jesus said all saints would know the future from God -John 16:13

    yes I did, but I had to stop half way through my reply for some sleep :) ... but did you read post #36 ?

    I was simply pointing out that your argument that God repents or changes is not sound, you did not search the whole scriptures else you would have seen that God does neither of these things [nor can God 'do' anything as spirit, the spirit is not physical , only controls by 'creation' ... that is one seriously hairy subject to try to discuss with words evolved to describe the physical, better to stop sinning and learn from God [ but that is personal of course, no use here really, few folks like to be told and when they do want to be told they usually choose a sinner to tell them cos' he 'looks sincere' or 'has authority given by sinners ' LOL? [e.g. 'sinner priests' -oxymoron! - of religion ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  2. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    shown above that this is just an incomplete reading of scripture [which is largely poetic because we do not have words specific to the spirit and 'God the Father' is spirit, not a man in the flesh]

    God simply know what will be decided from seeing what you call future ...there is no past and future to God , God is without change, without time, without space, all these things are created by God, God is 'logically prior' to them as their creator, not even possibly 'inside' them as spirit [nor can the spirit 'of a mna' be separated from God, it is just a manner of speaking... the spirit cannot 'move', cannot 'divide'

    Spinoza in 'Ethics' proved the falsehood of the common notion of free will long ago, more recently Saul Smilansky in 'Free Will and Illusion' showed not only the whole debate and why the mistakes are made, but why mankind cannot yet afford to give up its lie to itself... folks are not ready to face the Truth of God yet, as God also has pointed out but few listen to God either - Matt 7:13-14

    the future is at least partly determinate even to ignorant blinded human beings ... we spend much effort on science that lets us determine the future to some extent and call it 'causality' , but it is weak to say the least... and the irony is that we are only blind and ignorant because we refuse to Love one another ... for if we stop sinning God will tell us the future, Jesus died so that we would know -John 16:13- but almost all men prefer blindness and abusing one another for a miserable living , pretending is preferable to knowing because one does not have to face the Truth about oneself...

    no change is necessary ... you still imagine you 'progress through time, but it simply isn't like that , time is a delusion caused by blindness to the Truth... God offers to fix that through Jesus Christ, but only some one in three million alive today take up the generous free offer ... there is some preparation required ... a SEAL ... one cannot face God as a sinner else one will die which is not what is required ... so one has to CHOOSE to stop sinning first ... most choose not to stop sinning , preferring soothsayings of religions of sinners led by sinners to the Truth of God... it is not something one can change !

    well indeed you are half way to understanding that God knows all events because He is outside time, created them, created the illusion of time within the illusion of creation LOL?

    well it isn't finished for you until you stop sinning and God tells you it is finished and indeed never 'started' LOL? The mistake is ubiquitous, men imagine they can know without God telling them, but ALL knowledge ONLY comes from God... and one is ignorant of some only because sin prevents God telling one the Truth..

    God paints only one picture and it is only illusion that it isn't finished ... it incorporates all sin and it really does end well like all good movies :) but God wrote the movie :) only one way to spoi the movie by knowing the ending and few 'choose' it now...

    depends if one likes mystery novels or not I guess ?

    God has an alternative that a few take which leads to salvation of all from reading mystery novels , but each to his own way till then ... two ways to one ...

    Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


    2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


     
  3. dollarsbill

    dollarsbill Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 147:5 (NASB)
    5 His understanding is infinite.
     
  4. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    Psa 147:5 [REB] Great is our Lord, and of abounding strength, And, his knowledge, cannot be expressed.

    understanding cannot be infinite ... one cannot complete infinity ... 'infinite understanding' would not be complete which doesn't even make sense , it is just nonsense translation by sinners, senseless !

    that God's knowledge is ineffable does not make it infinite, nor could it , knowledge is by it's very nature finite... complete knowledge is ALL knowledge, not in any sense infinite because infinity is OPEN , completeness is closed although one cannot express it all in words of mankind's limited experience, limited concepts....
     
  5. ImperialJohn

    ImperialJohn Guest

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    False.
     
  6. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    Our Creator, Jehovah God, is unique, for he alone can foretell the future. He is outside of space and time, having no beginning and no end (Ps 90:2), having created the universe, establishing the laws and precision forces that govern it, setting in motion all the heavenly bodies by which time is established.

    The apostle Paul asked: "For "who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct us ?" But we do have the mind of Christ."(1 Cor 2:16) Can we grasp the universe in all its glory ?

    We can understand who Jesus is, having walked the earth as "a son of man".(Matt 8:20) But of Jehovah God, we gain partial insight into his personality and power by means of the visible creation and by closely examining the Bible, looking at Jesus, for he said: "He that has seen me has seen the Father."(John 14:9) Jesus perfectly reflects his Father's personality.(Heb 1:3)

    At Isaiah 55, Jehovah says to the nation of Israel: "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."(Isa 55:9) It is impossible for humans to grasp Jehovah God's thoughts in its fullness, even when living forever, for Ecclesiastes 3 says that "mankind may never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish."(Ecc 3:11)

    His incomprehensible capability to peer into the future is in his hands alone. Through Isaiah the prophet, he says: "Remember the first things of long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ' My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do."(Isa 46:9, 10)

    Jehovah God does not plan anything, but rather purposes his will. The apostle Paul wrote: "It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed (Greek proetheto, meaning "to set before one's self, to purpose, determine" G4388) in himself, for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth."(Eph 1:9, 10)

    Of his purpose toward the earth is that he will have the earth a paradise with "meek" ones living on it forever, having foretold this through David some 3000 years ago.(Ps 37:11, 29)

    At Isaiah 45, it says: "For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: "I am Jehovah and there is no one else."(Isa 45:18)
     
  7. dollarsbill

    dollarsbill Well-Known Member

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    Should we believe you or God?

    Psalm 147:5 (NASB)
    5 His understanding is infinite.
     
  8. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    :doh:OF THE FUTURE :
    IN HIS OWN PROPHETIC WORDS.
    MATTHEW MARK LUKE JOHN
    4:17,...19..4:12..2:49..1:51
    5:3-12, 17, 18, 20-22. 7:29 4:21 2:19, 24, 25
    6:2, 4, 16, 18. 8:35, 38 7:47, 48 3:13, 14
    7:7, 22 9:1,9, 31, 41, 48 8:48, 50 4:10, 14, 21-23, 50
    8:11, 12 10:45 12:32 5:8, 17, 19
    9:6, 15 11:2, 3, 14, 26 13:25 6:27, 33, 35, 37, 39, 40, 44, 47, 51, 64, 70
    10:15, 32 12:34, 40 14:14 7:34, 37-39
    11:11, 22-24, 29 13:2 15:10 8:12, 28, 51
    12:6, 31, 36, 41, 42, 45 14:8, 13 17:34-36 9:5
    13:40-50 19:9, 43 10:15-28
    15:13 22:19-21, 29, 31, 37 11:25, 26, 40, 43
    16:25, 27 23:28, 30, 43 12:23, 32, 48
    17:12, 22, 23 24:26, 47, 49 13:19, 20
    18:14, 35 14:2 ,6, 9, 16, 19 ,23
    19:28-30 15:1-7
    20:18, 23 16:4 ,7-13
    21:2, 43, 44 17:1
    22:30 18:36, 37
    23:36-39 20:17, 21, 23
    24 21:6, 18, 19, 22
    25
    26:23, 29, 32, 34, 64
    The Lord's Knowledge - Appendix to the Companion Bible
     
  9. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    Our Creator, Jehovah God, uses his almighty power selectively look into the future. If he wishes, he can determine what the future holds and of which he has. There are occasions whereby he did not see what would result, as at Genesis 18.

    Here God says: "The cry and complaint about Sodom and Gomorrah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it."(Gen 18:20, 21)

    On the other hand, concerning Jeremiah, Jehovah said: "Before I was forming you in the belly I knew you, and before you proceeded to come forth from the womb I sanctified you. Prophet to the nations I made you."(Jer 1:5) Jehovah God foretold that Jeremiah would be "prophet to the nations" and of which he did for over 60 years.

    God used his almighty power to unveil what would happen in our time period, called "the last days" (2 Tim 3:1), Jesus "promised presence" (2 Pet 3:3, 4) and "the time of the end".(Daniel 12:4, 9) However, only those whom Jesus called "babes" would be able to understand the meaning of the Bible.(Matt 11:25)

    Bible books such as Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew (24, 25) Revelation, to name a few, would be misunderstood by even those who are "wise and intellectual."(Matt 11:25) Only babe-like ones or teachable ones by God would be able to "mentally put the pieces together".(meaning of the Greek word syniemi that Jesus used 6 times at Matthew 13)
     
  10. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    Time is merely a local property of created universes that end ... God is without time , not suffering the illusion of time of blinded mankind... the creator cannot be contained in the created , God cannot occupy space or time , God exists at the beginning and end of creations and they cannot change God, nothing can, God is not subject to the physical at all because it is merely temporal, transient, God is endless...creator , not created

    it is just a manner of speaking , we do not have words specific to the spirit and so words evolved in the physical world are pressed into service, inappropriately if they are taken too literally , poetically , figuratively, symbolically, parables , etc
     
  11. Jpark

    Jpark Well-Known Member

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    The point is to make His capability known.

    Rarely do people say God changes futures. They say God changes and saves lives. They think it's limited to an individual level.

    It's not.

    Daniel 2:21-22 “It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
    He removes kings and establishes kings;
    He gives wisdom to wise men
    And knowledge to men of understanding.
    It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
    He knows what is in the darkness,
    And the light dwells with Him.

    Job 32:7-9 “I thought age should speak,
    And increased years should teach wisdom.
    “But it is a spirit in man,
    And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.
    “The abundant in years may not be wise,
    Nor may elders understand justice.

    Psalm 102:19-20 For He looked down from His holy height;
    From heaven the Lord gazed towards the earth,
    To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
    To set free those who were doomed to death,

    2 Chronicles 7:13-14 If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and My people over whom My name is called humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

    Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One
    Who lives forever, whose name is Holy,
    “I dwell on a high and holy place,
    And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit
    In order to revive the spirit of the lowly
    And to revive the heart of the contrite.

    Job 34:14-15 “If He should set His mind on Himself,
    If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,
    All flesh would perish together,
    And man would return to dust.

    Psalm 90:1 Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations.
    Before the mountains were born
    Or You gave birth to the earth and the world,
    Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
     
  12. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

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    The Revelation is proof that God knows the future. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues, including skin cancer, red tides, and global warming.
     
  13. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    Jehovah God has the capability to foresee the future at his discretion and has shown this on numerous occasions, being proof of his Godship.(Isa 44:28; Jer 50:9) This capability forms the basis for true prophecy. He does not seek out to know "every little detail" of humans but only when it fits his purpose. He could be likened to muscle builder who can lift 200 pounds easily. But does the muscle builder need to carry around 200 pounds everywhere ? No. He does only when needed or at his pleasure.

    Likewise of our Creator, Jehovah. He uses his power of foreknowledge as needed or selectively to accomplish what he desires. He foresees the future to inform his servants what is to happen. Amos says that "the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."(Amos 3:8) And so he has.

    God challenges the nations opposing his people to furnish proof of the godship they claim for their mighty ones and their idol-gods, calling on them to do so by foretelling similar acts of salvation or judgment and then bringing them to pass. Their impotence in this respect demonstrates their idols to be ‘mere wind and unreality.’(Isa 41:1-10, 21-29; 43:9-15; 45:20, 21)

    There are those who have the predestinarian view. These view that God's exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals. It's advocates reason that God’s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future. According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection.

    This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Gen 3:1-6; John 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day.

    This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation’s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details. This would make Jehovah God guilty if this were true.

    If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Gen 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.(James 3:14-18)
     
  14. elopez

    elopez Well-Known Member

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    As as been shown earlier in this thread, this statement is simply not true. Foreknowledge does not equate causation, so not every event God foreknows of He causes. If God does not cause everything He foreknows, He is not responsible for what He doesn't cause. If God is not responsible for what He does not cause, then He is not responsible for evil or sin as He does not cause them by mere knowledge of them.
     
  15. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    If Jehovah God had used his capability to know the future concerning Adam and Eve and was fully aware that they would sin, then he would have been setting in motion all the troubles that now exist. He could have simply stopped and never made man.

    It is like a doctor prescribing a medication that he knows will kill the patient but allows the nurse to give it anyway. Or it could be like a supervisor of a mechanic shop that is aware that a certain part is defective and will cause injury but allows one of his mechanics to install it anyway.

    However, God did not use his foreknowledge concerning Adam and Eve. This is shown by the fact that he provided a simple test (Gen 2:17), allowing them to choose which course they would take. If an engineer were to know that a product he designed and built was going to fail, would he need to test it ?

    Jehovah God is not the cause of all the monumental problems now facing mankind, but had he known in advance that such troubles would result, then by the making of Adam and Eve, he would have of known of all the oppression, hate, death that would have been awaiting mankind.

    Rather, he allowed for free will, choice with regard to the first man and woman, permitting them to choose whether or not to eat from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad".(Gen 3:1-6) He did not know if they would or would not take the fruit, but allowed events to unfold naturally.

    Yet, he has used his foreknowledge to unveil what would happen in these "last days"(2 Tim 3:1) For example, Jesus was given insight that the Christian congregation that he established would apostasize or "fall away" from his true teachings.(Matt 13:24-30) Yet over 700 years before Jesus arrived on the earth, a prophecy was stated that showed that true worship would be reestablished at Isaiah 2:2-4 in the "final part of the days" or "last days".

    Jehovah has used his foreknowledge to reveal events and situations through the book of Revelation, such as the destruction of all human governments.(Rev 19:19-21) He has revealed that seven world powers have ruled over his people, and who these are, Egypt, Assyria, ancient Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, with the seventh one as being the Anglo-American world power (Rev 17:9, 10) as well as the "eighth king" that "springs from the seven", as now being the United Nations.(Rev 17:11)

    By his foreknowledge he has unlocked the mystery of Babylon the Great (Rev 17:5), as being the world empire of false religion, and that this "harlot" will be made "devastated and naked, and will burn up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire" by means of the "ten horns" or the political governments.(Rev 17:16)

    Only his people are able to grasp what he has presented "in signs" through these prophecies.(Rev 1:1) Only they are able to "mentally put the pieces together".(Greek syniemi, used by Jesus at Matthew 13)
     
  16. elopez

    elopez Well-Known Member

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    Either way, if God does not know the future or not, He could have stopped anything from happening. I would hope you do not think God could not intervene in an affair just because He did not foreknow of it. If so, your argument here doesn't really work. If you don't think so, God appears to be weak in regards of omnipotence.

    It's actually nothing like that. This is simply a false analogy's. It is incomparable to God's foreknowledge and humanity for a few relevant reasons. First, God is not giving anyone a deadly medication. God, in the beginning, made everything inherently good. It was not till man sinned that moral and natural evil came into existence. Second, God is not 'installing' anything defective into creation. Again, He has made everything good. Man is the one that 'installed' defect into creation, and that is true whether God foreknow of A&E or not.

    The whole point of foreknowledge is that God knows beforehand what is going to happen. It is completely viable that God foreknew A&E choice to eat from the tree, even it being a test. Foreknowledge is not incompatible with free will, either. So A&E still choose which course they would take, and are responsible for their sin regardless of God foreknowing of it. I assume you disagree, but the thing is you haven't logically supported your reasons for that.

    And again, the analogy is false. The engineer would not know his design would fail, which is exactly why he does test it. God knows His design would fail, but that doesn't make Him responsible. I've gave a reason for this, but you did not address it.

    God is not the cause of all by way of foreknowing everything, either, as has been said. Knowledge does not equate to causation. The correlation is simply not there. It is actually the fallacy of Post Hoc to assume otherwise. God is merely consciously aware of all the hate and death, but that does not necessarily mean He caused it or wants it to happen.

    God still allows free will considering foreknowledge. It is not the libertarian type of free will, as that is inconsistent.

    What exempts God from using His foreknowledge in other instances? Is that He is simply unable to, or wills not to? If the first, again He seems to lack omnipotence. If the second, what relevant reason does He have to will to know only somethings?
     
  17. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    :confused:
    Pr 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
    Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    Pr 12:21 There shall no evil happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief.

    Ps 140:11 Let not an evil speaker be established in the earth: evil shall hunt the violent man to overthrow him.
     
  18. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    If Jehovah God had decided not to make man, then neither you nor I would be existing. However, with the words at Genesis 1:1, that says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", God established the earth as being special in his eyes, being the only planet in the universe that was created to have life on it. Jehovah God set aside the earth as unique.

    God could intervene in any affair that he deems necessary to accomplish his purpose. However, he selectively chooses to look into the future and reveals details to his people.(Amos 3:7) Jesus said in prayer to his Father: "“I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes."(Matt 11:25)

    Thus, those who are "babes" or teachable by God, are the ones who are privileged to understand what Jehovah has unveiled through his word, the Bible, what he choose to see in the future.

    You obviously have trouble carefully reading, for had you read what was written, I did not say that ' God is giving anyone medication ", but had he known in advance that the making of man would have set in motion all the "woes" on the earth, then he would have been guilty. If you knew in advance that a tire that you put on your car was defective and was going to blowout, causing a serious accident that claimed the life of someone, would you be innocent or guilty ?

    That is why God provided a means of testing Adam and Eve, with a tree that he designated as his own.(Gen 2:17) He allowed events to unfold naturally, without using his foreknowledge. This permitted free will, which is a treasure when used properly. However, Adam and Eve abused their privilege of free will, taking that which is not theirs. And it should be noted that God only gave the first human couple one command, not micromanaging their lives. These however proved to be irresponsible.

    He chose not to use his foreknowledge with regard to Adam and Eve, but allowed the scenario to play out, and then was deeply hurt when they did rebel, even causing Jehovah to have a momentary loss of words, as seen at the end Genesis 3:22 (called an ellipsis). Would Jehovah God had to of questioned Adam if he was already well aware what has transpired ? (Gen 3:11-13)

    That is why Hanani told king Asa: "For as regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him."(2 Chron 16:9) If he already knew how a person would respond, would he need to to be "roving through all the earth....of those whose heart is complete toward him", searching for such ones ?

    And again you fail to carefully read what is written, for in the illustration of the engineer, had he known that that his product would fail, would he need to test it ? I work on cars for a living, and if it can be determined that part will fail, then would it be sound practice to place it on the car ?

    Had God known in advance that the first human couple would rebel, then he would have been knowingly guilty of setting in motion all the troubles we see, rather than as my mother used to say "nip it in the bud". If you knew in advance that you would have a car accident that day, would you still get in the car and drive off ?

    So again, God is selective in his foreknowledge, and uses it only when it fits his purpose, having it written down in such Bible books as Isaiah, Joel, Obadiah (concerning Edom), Daniel (chps 2, 4, 7, 8, 11, 12), Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation, to name a few.

    In the first prophecy at Genesis 3:15, God established that "the serpent", Satan, would be ' bruised in the head ', some 7000 years after this prophecy was given.(Rev 20:7-10) He used his foreknowledge to reveal the end result for the benefit of his people.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  19. elopez

    elopez Well-Known Member

    +68
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    This goes without saying...

    Amos 3:8 hardly says anything like "he selectively chooses to see the future." It seems just extra-biblical.

    The 'babes' do not get the divine knowledge of God of what is going to happen in the future, even being we understand the Word. I don't know what's going to happen in the future that God knows of.

    You did say "It is like a doctor prescribing a medication." My point is that causation with knowledge would make one guilty, while knowledge with no causation may not require responsibility.

    You are still assuming causation with foreknowledge when there isn't. I've exemplified this in the bold. Foreknowledge does not equate causation. This has been stated many times, and not specifically responded to. Of course I would be guilty because I actively put the tire on myself. In foreknowledge, God does not actively put the tire on, but simply knows the tire is going on. So I think your analogy is incomparable.

    This is also something I mentioned which you did not respond to, that there could still be free will under foreknowledge. The two are compatible.

    Rhetorical.

    When this verse mentions "all the earth" I don't take that to mean that He knows only somethings on earth rather all things. I take that to mean that God's omniscience and omnipresence is throughout all of the earth, and as God is present everywhere and not just some places, God knows of all in the same extraordinary way.

    There is nothing to misunderstand. I've already answered the illustration. The engineer would not know if the product is going to fail. You still would need to take the analogy further to say he installed the product which is where it gets even more false, as again, foreknowledge does not equal causation.

    I hope you can realize that this question does not pertain to foreknowledge, as there is no causation (driving) in foreknowledge. That means that even if if I answer no, which I would, it is not relevant to foreknowledge or showing it wrong.
     
  20. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    Proverbs 15:3 is not related to Jehovah's foreknowledge, but his being aware of what both the wicked and righteous are doing. As Hanani told king Asa, that "as regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him."(2 Chron 16:9)

    Thus, God has not looked into the future to see whether mankind will be either good or bad, but allows a person's heart to show this to be the case.(see Matt 13:3-8 concerning how the "seed" grows) For example, at birth, the slate is clean, not having made a "name" of what they will become, for Ecclesiastes 7:1 says that "a name is better than good oil, and the day of one's death than the day of one's being born." However, at death, it can then can be determined what a person has become.

    Jehovah God does not need to use his capability of foreknowledge, but allows time to transpire to see whether or not a person will prove to gain a ' good name ', looking to see if they will ever have a ' complete heart toward him ' or if they will become wicked or bad as they grow up. Just as a flower is permitted to grow up and then to see what it will look like, so likewise God allows time to go by and determine what a person will become.

    And of Proverbs 12:21, it is noting that "nothing (permanently) hurtful will befall the righteous one, but the wicked are the ones that will certainly be filled with calamity." One's such as yourself, look at this Scripture "on the surface", rather than understanding it's deep meaning, recognizing that only by considering all the Bible can a proper grasp be made.

    So concerning Proverbs 12:21, by making "Jehovah (as) the stronghold of (a person's) life" (Ps 27:1), these can avoid the problems that entangle those who disregard the sound counsel in the Bible. Proverbs 19:23 says that "The fear of Jehovah tends toward life, and one will spend the night satisfied; one will not be visited with what is bad." And Proverbs 1:33 says that "as for the one listening to me (Jehovah God), he will reside in security and be undisturbed from dread of calamity."

    Hence, nothing can permanently ' hurt' a righteous one, not even death, for this one will be resurrected from the dead, such as Jesus who was "bruised in the heal", a wound that is not perpetual, but was brought back to life.(Gen 3:15; Acts 2:32) This is unlike the wicked who will "be filled with calamity", and suffer "everlasting destruction" at God's hands.(2 Thess 1:9)
     
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