The fact that the 7 last plagues are now being poured out is proof that there is a God, and that He knows the future.
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God does not know the future
- Thread starter Aijalon
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Exjunkman
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OK, but in order to NOT have the terrible thought that God KNEW and yet ALLOWED all the sin & suffering, you might be forced to eek out some explanation that He doesn't really (or didn't when He created man) know the future.
It would be like a man purposely having two children and deciding beforehand that he would treat one with love and one with contempt to show the loved one just how much they are loved by torturing the other one and not them. He could excuse his behavior by saying it is OK because the bad one did bad things so they deserved it.
"The loved one does bad things too," the hated one would say. But the father could say, "yes, but the loved one was chosen ahead to be loved and you were not...you could have been, but you are bad and so you shall suffer".
When you put it in a context like that, the story seems proposterous, but put it in a worldview and it is accepted without question. Why is that?
It would be like a man purposely having two children and deciding beforehand that he would treat one with love and one with contempt to show the loved one just how much they are loved by torturing the other one and not them. He could excuse his behavior by saying it is OK because the bad one did bad things so they deserved it.
"The loved one does bad things too," the hated one would say. But the father could say, "yes, but the loved one was chosen ahead to be loved and you were not...you could have been, but you are bad and so you shall suffer".
When you put it in a context like that, the story seems proposterous, but put it in a worldview and it is accepted without question. Why is that?
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elopez
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No, that explanation only complicates things further. For instance, if God does not know the future, there can be no plan for creation. It would even beg the question if God knew there was going to be a creation.
God's foreknowledge in relation to mankind is actually nothing like that. God is incomparable to the father as God does not directly torture people in any way.
What you're beginning to describe and argue against is predestination, which although foreknowledge is an aspect of, also differs from it. In response to that, in which I would still say the analogy is weak, God does not predestine those to Hell. Nor is He active in the damnation of those whom He foreknows are going to Hell. God does not 'treat' sinners with contempt but with love. That is true regardless if you think God knows the future or not.
Well, you put it in an erroneous context like you did yes it seems flat out wrong. Though as has been pointed out, that context is not comparable to the real context in question.
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The 7 last plagues are poured out after the great tribulation of WW II. We are especially being plagued by skin cancer, red tides and marine dead zones, and global warming.Just curious, do you have any unbiased support for the supposed fact that the 7 plagues are now being poured out? Or is this an opinion of yours?
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I disagree.
I believe that he has a plan for each of his children but he does not force us to follow his plan. He does, however, nudge us along.
I believe that God has a person for each of us "but" many people don't understand how to trust God enough to wait on him.
I doubt it but I believe that he wants us to eat healthy meals.
Maybe.
He allows us to act as we choose and when we follow God's Spirit, we receive rewards which are waiting for us in heaven.
God knows the future and how we will respond but he still gives us free will to respond correctly or incorrectly.
I believe that he reaches into some peoples lives differently than he does in others. Why that is, I have no clue as to why. He has done some incredible things in my life that I don't deserve and don't understand why. Some of these things may have been shown to me at much later times but others I still am waiting for understanding.
I very rarely get down on my knees and pray since arthritis has made that difficult but that is just an outward expression of what is going on inside us. Prostrating your spirit is much better.
I used to pray at least 8 hours everyday but that is down to about 2 hours now. I love to share every detail with my Father in heaven and in doing so, he helps me understand many things which I would not if I didn't have him to rely on.
God bless,
Yarddog
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The plagues of skin cancer, red tides, and global warming are facts. And the Euphrates was dry on 9/11.Oh, so it's your opinion. Sorry. When you said "fact" I thought you actually had something concrete to back it up.
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Ran77
Senior Contributor
Some of those are facts. There have been red tides. I am not familiar with the Euphrates being dry, but I'll give that to you. Skin cancer exists. But stating that the 7 plagues are now being poured out is not a fact. It is an assumption on your part. It might be correct. It might not be correct. But it isn't a fact.
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Which one isn't a fact? Are you a global warming denier?Some of those are facts. There have been red tides. I am not familiar with the Euphrates being dry, but I'll give that to you. Skin cancer exists. But stating that the 7 plagues are now being poured out is not a fact. It is an assumption on your part. It might be correct. It might not be correct. But it isn't a fact.
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Evergreen48
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Aijalon said:
And so you think that the Being that created everything that is in existence even down to the tiniest little network of veins that are interlaced through the tiniest little leaf, would have to depend on such as we to make his plan come to fruition? I don't think so. Besides that, if God planned the future then he would have to know what the future holds, or he wouldn't be able to know what his own plan was.
God doesn't have a plan for the future, but he has a purpose for allowing the future that we make for ourselves to come to pass. God, who is infinite, can both see and not see at the same time, and he can both know and not know at the same time. Our finite minds cannot comprehend this, but if we believe that all things are possible with God, (Matthew 19:26) we will accept it by that same faith that allows us to believe that God IS.
Man makes plans. God doesn't have to plan. He can just say, "Let it be so", and it is so.
I believe that God is concerned with every little detail of our lives, and he responds because he loves and cares for us. I can testify to the fact that he has cleaned up some pretty big messes that my plans have made down through the years. I believe that he sometimes allows us to make mistakes in order to teach us, and then most of the time he cleans up for us afterwards. Indeed he is a marvelous God!
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elopez
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I would understand that they do. And yes, I get that you may have not been arguing against predestination, but that's what it started to sound like.
That's where predestination comes in. God is in control of salvation. He snatches souls from the devil for His own, and makes them their own without possibility of the devil winning them over again.
Yes. God knows all. That should not be a question at this point. I've already stated my argument and you have yet to address it, so saying no one has gotten to the crux is a bit hasty.
As foreknowledge does not equal causation, and God foreknows everything, not everything God foreknows of He causes. To assume otherwise would be to commit the fallacy of Post Hoc, which is to falsely assume that as something happened after something else, that something else must have caused what happened. In other words, just because two things are related does not mean one caused the other.
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strangertoo
sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8
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A common misconception by 'time-trapped' created creatures... God is NOT within time, He is without time, without beginning and end, whereas time is created with 'space-time' universes, but we now know it isn't universal or fundamental, but just a local property of created things... this is not in doubt , one can test it for oneself now 'God has allowed' that we are CAPABLE of understanding that much..
it would be foolish indeed to look at history and not realise that God's inspirations guided the development of mankind at every single stage... we have tried so hard to kill ourselves off so many ways ... finally God will let us do so once He has the few saints He requires to run the perfect kingdom of Jesus Christ by Love...
so how about that, how does God know we shall destroy ourselves the way most are going following evil men in both religion and politics... it is just a stage in God's 'Plan' that is certain because Love really is a better way for ALL... but Jesus and God tell us we shall all accept that eventually, grow tired of falling over ourselves tryig to find a better way than God already told us is the best... LOL?
is it any wonder Jesus calls mankind blind leading the blind into the abyss ? ... anyway it must happen that way, men are most not ready to Love, still think sin is better for them... destroying this earth with sin begins to change our minds on that one... capitalism really isn't the best way of rulig people and religion of sinners-to-death is simply nonsense , one cannot condemn someone to 'eternal torment' for the same sins as one continually commits oneself ... LOL?
no my friend , He simply sees it as a whole, you do not until you stop sinning and receive His knowledge of it -John 16:13 [by actually listening to what Jesus says instead of listening to what sinners say he says]
God had to intervene as Logos else mankind would have long ago destroyed itself ... that is not quite the same thing as you say though...
well as teh saying goes, 'the well-laid plans of mice and men all gang agray'... left to ourselves God's children would never have made it , God doesn't leave his kids to play with a box of matches until the means of recovering from their burning our 'house' down is in place :-
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up...
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
did you never wonder why most folks get destroyed [Matt 7:13-14]yet the few create the kingdom in the new earth and then 'magically' the many reappear [Rev 20:13] resurrected from hell and countless many are saved by works at judgement day ?
there was no need for planning beyond careful design work in the creation parameters... but that is way beyond the accuracy men work too, as scientists are beginning to realise [and their current best theories are way out because they do not ask God for their answers any more, it ain't 'fashionable'...LOL?]
God tells us what the point is ... why not ask Him yourself or read about it ?
no, it isn't even close to understanding that God is time-less and so seeing everything is inevitable , He is not 'blinded by time' as many men think they are [and persecute the prophets of God as liars ! ... it ain't kind! ]
God set mesengers to stop the kids messing up the progress toward God's goal as-it-were , that is all that is required...
well the first step is to stop sinning, else God cannot answer your prayers, as any sinner knows, but they too usually don't blame themselves for not reading what God tells us is the FIRST step , without which one cannot be baptised of the spirit, face God Himself, as it would kill you... the Truth is FREE , but it is SEALED because one cannot bear to hear it and live if one is still a wilful sinner, [the shame kills of the Truth about oneself] :-
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
then God will tell you everything as quickly as you can bear to hear it ...
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
all as Jesus promised [John 16:13] and is written in the new covenant [Heb 8:10-11] ... but who bothers to read what Jesus says, who reads the new covenant to see what God agreed to ???? - very few indeed, about one in three million alive today... and it is not a shortage of Bibles that causes men not to read the way to getting the Truth STRAIGHT FROM God Himself... it is tradition of men gets in the way :-
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
incredible really ... the door to God was never closed ... most men still just prefer eventual misery from sinning over Love that would make us all happy... insane really, but it is most folks that are insane LOL? -[Matt 7:13-14]
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leftrightleftrightleft
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The orthodox view that God knows the future has been a traditional belief in modern Christianity, but it hasn't always been the case. There's a few reasons why I don't think God knows the future:
1) He changes his mind in Scripture: Exodus 32:14, 1 Samuel 15:11, 2 Kings 20:5-6 etc. If a being knows the future, then this future is already preset and thus "changing your mind" is impossible. If the future is preset then there is no free will, even God could not have free will if the future is pre-determined. To say that the future is pre-determined but God can change the future is nonsensical. There can only be one future, by definition. The future is the future. If God changes the future from Future A to Future B, then Future A didn't fulfill the definition of "future" to begin with because Future B is the actual future.
2) The way we view time is flawed: I think people naturally view time as a river and we are in a boat floating along the river. But there is this natural assumption that the river exists ahead of us. I don't think this is how time works, because time is not a thing that exists. Time is just a perceived change from some initial condition to some later condition. For example, if all the atoms, electrons and subatomic particles in the universe all stopped moving, there would be no change from one moment to the next. Would time still exist? What does it mean for time to exist if nothing changes?
3) God does not need to know the future in order to enact his plan. I think of God as an artist and existence as a painting. He's the painter, but that doesn't mean the painting is already finished. I also think he isn't the only painter, there are other pesky artists as well that come along and try to mess up his vision for what he thinks the painting should look like. Sin is an artist too. So God has this vision of what he wants it to look like and every time Sin puts some marks on it that God doesn't like, God has to either paint over those spots or work those blemishes into his final product. When we act in accordance with God's will then we are helping him complete the painting, but when we act sinfully or selfishly we are adding black spots or ink stains to his painting. We have free will, so he doesn't know what kind of mess we are going to make of his painting, but he is the ultimate painter. He has the widest range of brush sizes whereas we have a limited range. He has the small brushes that can effect the smallest things which we don't even see, and he has the biggest brush of all. He could just paint the whole canvas white and start over.
Open theism is an interesting idea: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/open_theism.htm
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strangertoo
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not that I in any way agree with orthodox religion of any kind because of its obvious contradiction by scripture, but I would like to know what evidence you would cite for this statement...
It would be as well to remember the poetic licence involved in using words about created humans and the physical world as if they applied to endless time-less God ... God explicity underlines in other scripturesthat He does not repent or change :-
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Ezekiel 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
thus, to understand the whole scripture one is it seems obliged to consider that presenting events as a change of mind of God is only a manner of speaking as men might view things, not implying God even can change [for time is a local property in created space-time universes , it does not exist at the beginning of the creation , so God is not bound by time, cannot change, exists endlessly perfect, complete, indivisible, incorruptible...man can, and dramatically does, change our view of God [e.g. Rev 13:3-4] ... man perceiving a change in God does not imply God has changed...
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leftrightleftrightleft
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Perhaps I overstated myself. Omniscience has been a general trend but it has been hotly debated at various times. Also, what "omniscience" actually means has been hotly debated. And the understanding of Aquinas vs. Paul vs. Lewis likely all differed.
Did you even read the rest of my post? None of those Biblical quotes you listed imply that God knows the future. Nor do any of those quotes confirm that God would be unable of fulfilling his plans and visions if he didn't have knowledge of the future.
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elopez
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Just going by the obvious disclaimer of Numbers 23:19 which clearly states God does not change His mind, each verse you gave will be discussed to understand why those verses are taken out of context.
Exodus 32:14. God already promised He would have mercy on people if they change from their sinful ways. So you see, it's not exactly a change of mind on God's behalf that results in Him 'relenting' rather the change of mind from the Israelites.
1 Sam 15:11. Here God is simply changing a purpose on what has already been decreed, of which as I said of the Exodus verse that He would have mercy on those who repent. It is the change of mind in man that gives rise to any change of the outward dealings from God.
2 Kings 20:5-6. This verse actually has no mentioning of God changing His mind at all.
In fact, neither of these three verses explicitly say that God changes His mind, and in fact there is a verse that actually does explicitly say God does not change His mind.
Yes, if a Deity knows the future infallibly, then the future that is foreknown must happen. Though, it is not the Deity's knowledge of the future that causes the future to happen; indeed it is the actions of man that the Deity knows of. Yes, the knowledge precedes the actual event, but the knowledge does not cause the event to happen.
That dampers your proposition that, "If the future is preset then there is no free will." What support is there for said proposition? And please don't tell me it's as clear as a red ball being red, because it's not. One can still be held liable for what they do even if they had no ability to choose otherwise. That means free will is not defined by PAP and thus could be compatible with determinism. Either that or there is no free will, but there is, so it is compatible with determinism.
Say that Bill wants to rob a bank. Ted, a man who also wants to rob the same bank, secretly implants a controlling device in Bill's head that once activated would override what he is doing by the whim of Ted. So if Bill decides not to rob the bank, Ted can push a button and control him as to force Bill to rob. In fact, only under such a circumstance will Ted push the button. So as Bill enters the bank he robs it of his own will for his own motives. That way Ted does not push the button.
Although Bill was unable to do other than rob the bank, is he held any less accountable? No. Just because he had no other choice regardless of being unaware of it, he is still accountable. That is why free will, as defined by PAP, is false. Hence Libertarianism is false.
I would agree that assumption of time is flawed, but why would you assume that is the notion of time among "we" or "people"? I have seen that view argued against more than I have seen it argued for. I would say there is a natural assumption that time 'flows' forward. And by that I simply mean that certain things are irreversible. For example, we cannot take an omelet and 'uncook' it back into an unbroken egg shell in the carton. We are young, and then get old, and we die. This whole sense of change and irreversibility implies a 'forward' direction of time. That there is indeed an objective passage of time.
So time exists. It just doesn't exist as something tangible would, but that doesn't mean it does not exist. If there is no movement, no change at all and everything static, then no, there would be no time. It would be a state of atemporality. If nothing changes time does not exist. If things do change time does exist.
If God does not know the future, then He cannot plan for creation. And if God does not know the future, then how could He even know He is going to create? I would see it like this: the painting is not done, but the painter already knows for certain what his painting is going to be. God knows what kind of mess we are going to make, but we still have free will.
Perhaps the only thing open theism should be regarded as is interesting. The idea of a Libertarian free will is unfounded.
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