The fact that the 7 last plagues are now being poured out is proof that there is a God, and that He knows the future.
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No, that explanation only complicates things further. For instance, if God does not know the future, there can be no plan for creation. It would even beg the question if God knew there was going to be a creation.OK, but in order to NOT have the terrible thought that God KNEW and yet ALLOWED all the sin & suffering, you might be forced to eek out some explanation that He doesn't really (or didn't when He created man) know the future.
God's foreknowledge in relation to mankind is actually nothing like that. God is incomparable to the father as God does not directly torture people in any way.It would be like a man purposely having two children and deciding beforehand that he would treat one with love and one with contempt to show the loved one just how much they are loved by torturing the other one and not them. He could excuse his behavior by saying it is OK because the bad one did bad things so they deserved it.
"The loved one does bad things too," the hated one would say. But the father could say, "yes, but the loved one was chosen ahead to be loved and you were not...you could have been, but you are bad and so you shall suffer".
Well, you put it in an erroneous context like you did yes it seems flat out wrong. Though as has been pointed out, that context is not comparable to the real context in question.When you put it in a context like that, the story seems proposterous, but put it in a worldview and it is accepted without question. Why is that?
The 7 last plagues are poured out after the great tribulation of WW II. We are especially being plagued by skin cancer, red tides and marine dead zones, and global warming.Just curious, do you have any unbiased support for the supposed fact that the 7 plagues are now being poured out? Or is this an opinion of yours?
The 7 last plagues are poured out after the great tribulation of WW II. We are especially being plagued by skin cancer, red tides and marine dead zones, and global warming.
God does not know the future
I believe that he has a plan for each of his children but he does not force us to follow his plan. He does, however, nudge us along.So then we must grasp that God has planned the future, and actively works to make sure his planned future happens. But how much does he plan, and how much is up to us? In other words, to what level of detail is everything planned?
I believe that God has a person for each of us "but" many people don't understand how to trust God enough to wait on him.Is who we marry planned in advance?
I doubt it but I believe that he wants us to eat healthy meals.Is what we eat for breakfast planned in advance?
Maybe.Is where we live planned?
He allows us to act as we choose and when we follow God's Spirit, we receive rewards which are waiting for us in heaven.How about what we say?
How about our thoughts?
God knows the future and how we will respond but he still gives us free will to respond correctly or incorrectly.If every little detail was planned, what would be the point of that? And if every little detail is not planned, isn't it fair to say that God does not know the future?
I believe that he reaches into some peoples lives differently than he does in others. Why that is, I have no clue as to why. He has done some incredible things in my life that I don't deserve and don't understand why. Some of these things may have been shown to me at much later times but others I still am waiting for understanding.What are the details God is concerned with and what makes him reach down and respond?
I very rarely get down on my knees and pray since arthritis has made that difficult but that is just an outward expression of what is going on inside us. Prostrating your spirit is much better.Get on your knees and pray.
The plagues of skin cancer, red tides, and global warming are facts. And the Euphrates was dry on 9/11.Oh, so it's your opinion. Sorry. When you said "fact" I thought you actually had something concrete to back it up.
The plagues of skin cancer, red tides, and global warming are facts. And the Euphrates was dry on 9/11.
Which one isn't a fact? Are you a global warming denier?Some of those are facts. There have been red tides. I am not familiar with the Euphrates being dry, but I'll give that to you. Skin cancer exists. But stating that the 7 plagues are now being poured out is not a fact. It is an assumption on your part. It might be correct. It might not be correct. But it isn't a fact.
Aijalon said:Most people seem to think of an omniscient God as one that knows what will happen before it happens, as though seeing into the future. Of course that would mean that God cannot change the future or else he didn't know it.
So then we must grasp that God has planned the future, and actively works to make sure his planned future happens. But how much does he plan, and how much is up to us? In other words, to what level of detail is everything planned?
Is who we marry planned in advance?
Is what we eat for breakfast planned in advance?
Is where we live planned?
How about what we say?
How about our thoughts?
If every little detail was planned, what would be the point of that? And if every little detail is not planned, isn't it fair to say that God does not know the future?
What are the details God is concerned with and what makes him reach down and respond?
God's foreknowledge in relation to mankind is actually nothing like that. God is incomparable to the father as God does not directly torture people in any way.
What you're beginning to describe and argue against is predestination, which although foreknowledge is an aspect of, also differs from it. In response to that, in which I would still say the analogy is weak, God does not predestine those to Hell. Nor is He active in the damnation of those whom He foreknows are going to Hell. God does not 'treat' sinners with contempt but with love. That is true regardless if you think God knows the future or not.
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I understand where you are coming from, but your ideas give me more questions than answers.
BTW, I am not arguing against predestination. Its not about that.
It would seem that all the evil of the present and the torture to come are from the devil. I agree that the devil causes most all of it + our sinful natures, but the scenario is one that God isn't really in control of much at all. The devil and people are and He will regain power once he does away with the devil and all of the filthy sinners.
Didn't God know the devil would trash the world and drag most of His creation into a horrendous eternity when He created everything.
I keep asking this question and get lots of generalizations-but nobody can really get to the crux of the issue about it.
I would understand that they do. And yes, I get that you may have not been arguing against predestination, but that's what it started to sound like.I understand where you are coming from, but your ideas give me more questions than answers. BTW, I am not arguing against predestination. Its not about that.
That's where predestination comes in. God is in control of salvation. He snatches souls from the devil for His own, and makes them their own without possibility of the devil winning them over again.It would seem that all the evil of the present and the torture to come are from the devil. I agree that the devil causes most all of it + our sinful natures, but the scenario is one that God isn't really in control of much at all. The devil and people are and He will regain power once he does away with the devil and all of the filthy sinners.
Yes. God knows all. That should not be a question at this point. I've already stated my argument and you have yet to address it, so saying no one has gotten to the crux is a bit hasty.Didn't God know the devil would trash the world and drag most of His creation into a horrendous eternity when He created everything. I keep asking this question and get lots of generalizations-but nobody can really get to the crux of the issue about it.
Most people seem to think of an omniscient God as one that knows what will happen before it happens, as though seeing into the future. Of course that would mean that God cannot change the future or else he didn't know it.
no my friend , He simply sees it as a whole, you do not until you stop sinning and receive His knowledge of it -John 16:13 [by actually listening to what Jesus says instead of listening to what sinners say he says]So then we must grasp that God has planned the future
God had to intervene as Logos else mankind would have long ago destroyed itself ... that is not quite the same thing as you say though...and actively works to make sure his planned future happens.
well as teh saying goes, 'the well-laid plans of mice and men all gang agray'... left to ourselves God's children would never have made it , God doesn't leave his kids to play with a box of matches until the means of recovering from their burning our 'house' down is in place :-But how much does he plan, and how much is up to us?
there was no need for planning beyond careful design work in the creation parameters... but that is way beyond the accuracy men work too, as scientists are beginning to realise [and their current best theories are way out because they do not ask God for their answers any more, it ain't 'fashionable'...LOL?]In other words, to what level of detail is everything planned?
God tells us what the point is ... why not ask Him yourself or read about it ?If every little detail was planned, what would be the point of that?
no, it isn't even close to understanding that God is time-less and so seeing everything is inevitable , He is not 'blinded by time' as many men think they are [and persecute the prophets of God as liars ! ... it ain't kind! ]And if every little detail is not planned, isn't it fair to say that God does not know the future?
God set mesengers to stop the kids messing up the progress toward God's goal as-it-were , that is all that is required...What are the details God is concerned with and what makes him reach down and respond?
well the first step is to stop sinning, else God cannot answer your prayers, as any sinner knows, but they too usually don't blame themselves for not reading what God tells us is the FIRST step , without which one cannot be baptised of the spirit, face God Himself, as it would kill you... the Truth is FREE , but it is SEALED because one cannot bear to hear it and live if one is still a wilful sinner, [the shame kills of the Truth about oneself] :-Get on your knees and pray.
Most people seem to think of an omniscient God as one that knows what will happen before it happens, as though seeing into the future. Of course that would mean that God cannot change the future or else he didn't know it.
So then we must grasp that God has planned the future, and actively works to make sure his planned future happens. But how much does he plan, and how much is up to us? In other words, to what level of detail is everything planned?
Is who we marry planned in advance?
Is what we eat for breakfast planned in advance?
Is where we live planned?
How about what we say?
How about our thoughts?
If every little detail was planned, what would be the point of that? And if every little detail is not planned, isn't it fair to say that God does not know the future?
What are the details God is concerned with and what makes him reach down and respond?
Get on your knees and pray.
not that I in any way agree with orthodox religion of any kind because of its obvious contradiction by scripture, but I would like to know what evidence you would cite for this statement...The orthodox view that God knows the future has been a traditional belief in modern Christianity, but it hasn't always been the case.
There's a few reasons why I don't think God knows the future:
1) He changes his mind in Scripture: Exodus 32:14, 1 Samuel 15:11, 2 Kings 20:5-6 etc.
not that I in any way agree with orthodox religion of any kind because of its obvious contradiction by scripture, but I would like to know what evidence you would cite for this statement...
It would be as well to remember the poetic licence involved in using words about created humans and the physical world as if they applied to endless time-less God ... God explicity underlines in other scripturesthat He does not repent or change :-
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Ezekiel 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
thus, to understand the whole scripture one is it seems obliged to consider that presenting events as a change of mind of God is only a manner of speaking as men might view things, not implying God even can change [for time is a local property in created space-time universes , it does not exist at the beginning of the creation , so God is not bound by time, cannot change, exists endlessly perfect, complete, indivisible, incorruptible...man can, and dramatically does, change our view of God [e.g. Rev 13:3-4] ... man perceiving a change in God does not imply God has changed...
Just going by the obvious disclaimer of Numbers 23:19 which clearly states God does not change His mind, each verse you gave will be discussed to understand why those verses are taken out of context.1) He changes his mind in Scripture: Exodus 32:14, 1 Samuel 15:11, 2 Kings 20:5-6 etc.
Yes, if a Deity knows the future infallibly, then the future that is foreknown must happen. Though, it is not the Deity's knowledge of the future that causes the future to happen; indeed it is the actions of man that the Deity knows of. Yes, the knowledge precedes the actual event, but the knowledge does not cause the event to happen.If a being knows the future, then this future is already preset and thus "changing your mind" is impossible. If the future is preset then there is no free will, even God could not have free will if the future is pre-determined. To say that the future is pre-determined but God can change the future is nonsensical. There can only be one future, by definition. The future is the future. If God changes the future from Future A to Future B, then Future A didn't fulfill the definition of "future" to begin with because Future B is the actual future.
I would agree that assumption of time is flawed, but why would you assume that is the notion of time among "we" or "people"? I have seen that view argued against more than I have seen it argued for. I would say there is a natural assumption that time 'flows' forward. And by that I simply mean that certain things are irreversible. For example, we cannot take an omelet and 'uncook' it back into an unbroken egg shell in the carton. We are young, and then get old, and we die. This whole sense of change and irreversibility implies a 'forward' direction of time. That there is indeed an objective passage of time.2) The way we view time is flawed: I think people naturally view time as a river and we are in a boat floating along the river. But there is this natural assumption that the river exists ahead of us. I don't think this is how time works, because time is not a thing that exists. Time is just a perceived change from some initial condition to some later condition. For example, if all the atoms, electrons and subatomic particles in the universe all stopped moving, there would be no change from one moment to the next. Would time still exist? What does it mean for time to exist if nothing changes?
If God does not know the future, then He cannot plan for creation. And if God does not know the future, then how could He even know He is going to create? I would see it like this: the painting is not done, but the painter already knows for certain what his painting is going to be. God knows what kind of mess we are going to make, but we still have free will.3) God does not need to know the future in order to enact his plan. I think of God as an artist and existence as a painting. He's the painter, but that doesn't mean the painting is already finished. I also think he isn't the only painter, there are other pesky artists as well that come along and try to mess up his vision for what he thinks the painting should look like. Sin is an artist too. So God has this vision of what he wants it to look like and every time Sin puts some marks on it that God doesn't like, God has to either paint over those spots or work those blemishes into his final product. When we act in accordance with God's will then we are helping him complete the painting, but when we act sinfully or selfishly we are adding black spots or ink stains to his painting. We have free will, so he doesn't know what kind of mess we are going to make of his painting, but he is the ultimate painter. He has the widest range of brush sizes whereas we have a limited range. He has the small brushes that can effect the smallest things which we don't even see, and he has the biggest brush of all. He could just paint the whole canvas white and start over.
Perhaps the only thing open theism should be regarded as is interesting. The idea of a Libertarian free will is unfounded.Open theism is an interesting idea: Open Theism - ReligionFacts