God does not know the future

[timbo3]

This goes without saying...


Amos 3:8 hardly says anything like "he selectively chooses to see the future." It seems just extra-biblical.


The 'babes' do not get the divine knowledge of God of what is going to happen in the future, even being we understand the Word. I don't know what's going to happen in the future that God knows of.


You did say "It is like a doctor prescribing a medication." My point is that causation with knowledge would make one guilty, while knowledge with no causation may not require responsibility.

You are still assuming causation with foreknowledge when there isn't. I've exemplified this in the bold. Foreknowledge does not equate causation. This has been stated many times, and not specifically responded to. Of course I would be guilty because I actively put the tire on myself. In foreknowledge, God does not actively put the tire on, but simply knows the tire is going on. So I think your analogy is incomparable.


This is also something I mentioned which you did not respond to, that there could still be free will under foreknowledge. The two are compatible.


Rhetorical.


When this verse mentions "all the earth" I don't take that to mean that He knows only somethings on earth rather all things. I take that to mean that God's omniscience and omnipresence is throughout all of the earth, and as God is present everywhere and not just some places, God knows of all in the same extraordinary way.


There is nothing to misunderstand. I've already answered the illustration. The engineer would not know if the product is going to fail. You still would need to take the analogy further to say he installed the product which is where it gets even more false, as again, foreknowledge does not equal causation.


I hope you can realize that this question does not pertain to foreknowledge, as there is no causation (driving) in foreknowledge. That means that even if if I answer no, which I would, it is not relevant to foreknowledge or showing it wrong.

I meant to say Amos 3:7, not 8. Let's just "cut to the chase", and understand that if God had used his foreknowledge and knew in advance that Adam and Eve would sin (Adam as the head is the one held more accountable by Jehovah God, Rom 5:12), then there would have been no need of a test.(Gen 2:17)

Had God used his foreknowledge and knew in advance that Adam and Eve would rebel, then by the making of man he would have then set in motion all the "woes" that are now on the earth.

However, our Creator Jehovah God does not work that way. He did not use his foreknowledge for this, but allowed the test to play out concerning Adam and Eve. He permits each individual to prove what their "work" is (Gal 6:4; Ecc 7:1), as to whether or not they will seek him out or disregard him. Only on special occasions has he used his foreknowledge to provide insight of a person, such as Jeremiah, or of a situation, such as the trek of world powers that would personally affect his people, as seen at Daniel 7, 8, and 11.

At Genesis 11:5-8, God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1)

God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”(Gen 18:19; 22:11, 12) Had he known Abraham in advance, would he have said that "now (not previously) I do know" that he would be faithful to him ? Why the test if he foreknew such ones as Abraham would be loyal ?

Hence, Jehovah uses his capability of foreknowledge selectively, only what fits his purpose. And all the questions I have presented do pertain to foreknowledge.

 

[elopez]

I meant to say Amos 3:7, not 8. Let's just "cut to the chase", and understand that if God had used his foreknowledge and knew in advance that Adam and Eve would sin (Adam as the head is the one held more accountable by Jehovah God, Rom 5:12), then there would have been no need of a test.(Gen 2:17)

Even then Amos 3:7 does not say, "he selectively sees the future." It just means that God will not act before informing a prophet. So what? That doesn't mean God cannot have knowledge of all the future.

The test is the same as it is from saying God does not know of the fall to saying He does. Foreknowledge does not take away from the desires and intentions of those who act to make events happen, and nor does foreknowledge cause those to act the way they do.

Had God used his foreknowledge and knew in advance that Adam and Eve would rebel, then by the making of man he would have then set in motion all the "woes" that are now on the earth.

This has been shown to be not true. You haven't really addressed those points, either. One such point is that foreknowledge does not equal causation. You haven't begun to show that wrong. This is simply a circular argument now.

However, our Creator Jehovah God does not work that way. He did not use his foreknowledge for this, but allowed the test to play out concerning Adam and Eve. He permits each individual to prove what their "work" is (Gal 6:4; Ecc 7:1), as to whether or not they will seek him out or disregard him. Only on special occasions has he used his foreknowledge to provide insight of a person, such as Jeremiah, or of a situation, such as the trek of world powers that would personally affect his people, as seen at Daniel 7, 8, and 11.

And I hardly doubt God operates in the ambiguous way you describe. Knowing of somethings but not of others.

At Genesis 11:5-8, God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1)

Genesis 18:20-21 isn't stating there is a uncertainty in God's mind, but He is "pleased thus to express himself after the manner of men." And again, it doesn't say anything you say it may.

God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”(Gen 18:19; 22:11, 12) Had he known Abraham in advance, would he have said that "now (not previously) I do know" that he would be faithful to him ? Why the test if he foreknew such ones as Abraham would be loyal ?

It could be heavily argued that the testing of Issac was a prophetic implication of the Father sacrificing His only Son. That has foreknowledge written all over it.

 

[he-man]

Even then Amos 3:7 does not say, "he selectively sees the future." It just means that God will not act before informing a prophet. So what? That doesn't mean God cannot have knowledge of all the future.

Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[timbo3]

Even then Amos 3:7 does not say, "he selectively sees the future." It just means that God will not act before informing a prophet. So what? That doesn't mean God cannot have knowledge of all the future.

The test is the same as it is from saying God does not know of the fall to saying He does. Foreknowledge does not take away from the desires and intentions of those who act to make events happen, and nor does foreknowledge cause those to act the way they do.


This has been shown to be not true. You haven't really addressed those points, either. One such point is that foreknowledge does not equal causation. You haven't begun to show that wrong. This is simply a circular argument now.


And I hardly doubt God operates in the ambiguous way you describe. Knowing of somethings but not of others.


Genesis 18:20-21 isn't stating there is a uncertainty in God's mind, but He is "pleased thus to express himself after the manner of men." And again, it doesn't say anything you say it may.


It could be heavily argued that the testing of Issac was a prophetic implication of the Father sacrificing His only Son. That has foreknowledge written all over it.

No, Amos 3:7 does not say that Jehovah selectively sees the future, but that when he does use his foreknowledge, he reveals it "to his servants the prophets." And if Jehovah foreknew that the making of man would have resulted in all the oppression, the slaughter, the chemical warfare, the hate-filled society, then he would have been guilty.

Here are some examples of corporations that knew in advance that their products were dangerous, but did nothing.

(1) Before putting the Pinto car into production, Ford Motor Company was well aware that its Pinto was a potential death trap, but chose not to fix the problems. Ford knew from its crash tests that the Pinto's design rendered it liable to explode in a rear-end collisions as low as 20 miles per hour. Ford did nothing for 5 years, with President Lee Iacocca disregarding safety and saying "Safety doesn't sell", and with the company estimating that the unsafe fuel tank would cause 180 deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2, 100 burned vehicles. And it happened, death did occur in several instances from ruptured gas tanks caused by rear end collisions. Eventually, Ford Motor Company was taken to court and had to pay $128 million fine in February 1978 involving a personal injury lawsuit.

(2) Before Johnson & Johnson placed on the market a birth control patch called Ortho Evra, they were well aware that the patch delivery mechanism was releasing far more estrogen into the bloodstream than low dose birth control pills. Because higher levels of estrogen increase the chance of blood clots and strokes, Johnson & Johnson tried to hide the evidence by reducing the numbers it reported in a clinical trial by 40 percent. This birth control patch resulted in deaths of young women because of heart attacks.

These 2 examples are enough for a reasonable person to understand that if anyone knows in advance that serious injury or death can result from their products, they are liable and guilty of causation. Hence, if Jehovah God had known in advance that upon making man, there would be the great "woes" that have resulted, he would be guilty.

However, he chose not to invoke his foreknowledge but used the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" as a test. He allowed the scenario to play out, warning Adam and Eve not to touch this tree.(Gen 2:17)

They chose to disregard his command, listening to "the serpent", Satan, and touching the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" and taking its fruit. We are now reaping the sad consequences of their disobedience. I have said enough here and will reply no more to you.

 

[Caesars Ghost]

Most people seem to think of an omniscient God as one that knows what will happen before it happens, as though seeing into the future. Of course that would mean that God cannot change the future or else he didn't know it.

So then we must grasp that God has planned the future, and actively works to make sure his planned future happens. But how much does he plan, and how much is up to us? In other words, to what level of detail is everything planned?

Is who we marry planned in advance?

Is what we eat for breakfast planned in advance?

Is where we live planned?

How about what we say?

How about our thoughts?

If every little detail was planned, what would be the point of that? And if every little detail is not planned, isn't it fair to say that God does not know the future?

What are the details God is concerned with and what makes him reach down and respond?

Get on your knees and pray.

God is sovereign.
What is the limit to infinite?

 

[elopez]

No, Amos 3:7 does not say that Jehovah selectively sees the future, but that when he does use his foreknowledge, he reveals it "to his servants the prophets."

Okay, so just because He reveals certain things of the future to His prophets does not mean He lacks foreknowledge of all events. The correlation is just not there...

These 2 examples are enough for a reasonable person to understand that if anyone knows in advance that serious injury or death can result from their products, they are liable and guilty of causation. Hence, if Jehovah God had known in advance that upon making man, there would be the great "woes" that have resulted, he would be guilty.

Over and over again you gave examples and analogies that are simply incomparable to the situation of God's foreknowledge and humanity. I'll expose the fallacious reasoning once again. Even with the first example, we have the factor of people building faulty objects, when in the situation of foreknowledge, God is not actively doing anything to make any created object faulty. Foreknowledge is only the mere knowledge of everything that happens and no causation is involved unless God wills it. God does not will evil or sinful things to happen. Therefore, by way of foreknowledge, God does not make things happen necessarily, especially the bad.

 

[Phoenix]

isn't it fair to say that God does not know the future?

Not really. Use the Psalms. As Jesus is being crucified, God knows what the people would be doing and thinking and even the words that Jesus would speak as it was happening.

 

[Exjunkman]

Not really. Use the Psalms. As Jesus is being crucified, God knows what the people would be doing and thinking and even the words that Jesus would speak as it was happening.

How true. I thinks its pretty evident that God knows and knew about all of the evil that is present in the world.
If he didnt know it was going to happen, why did He create Hell?
Oh, wait...isnt the story that there was no Hell until Jesus' death and resurrection. So Jesus made hell right?...oh wait...Jesus told us about the rich man and Lazarus, so Hell was there before Jesus....or was it?

:o

 

[interpreter]

The Revelation is proof that God knows the future. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues, such as skin cancer, red tides, and global warming.

 

[DARRELLll]

Understanding God

Draw A Circle Then Inside Of It Draw A Straight Line Not Touching The Circle Any Where,
Now The Circle Is God, And The Line Is Time That We Live In
Read Gen.1 God Was Before Time . And He Is After Time.
Rev. Says He Is The Begining And He Is The End This Is All At The Same Time

He Has All Ready Seen How We Will End And Tried To Warn Us , He Did Not Plan It.