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God created the earth and the earth was without form

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by FreeGrace2, May 13, 2021.

  1. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth ... in the beginning it was a empty wasteland (but God wasn't done creating) .... God kept on creating and filled it with all His other creations until it was perfect.
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Nope. Psa 33:8,9 says God spoke it into existence. He doesn't create wastelands.

    Everything that was created in Genesis 1 was said to be "good".

    Do you believe that uninhabitable wastelands are "good"?

    I believe they are bad. Very bad.

    And don't forget the MOST COMMON translation of the exact form for 'hayah' in v.2 is "became". Look it up yourself.

    Did you catch my posts about the Greek word "katartizo" in Heb 11:3? "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

    The SAME WORD rendered "formed" here is found in Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

    And the same word is translated as "mended" in 2 verses in the gospels in reference to what the disciples did to their fishing nets.

    So Heb 11:3 speaks of God restoring.

    btw, can you explain with examples how matter can be formless/shapeless?
     
  3. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perfectly imperfect like a four leaf clover in a field of three.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Again it's talking about the earth's condition ....

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth .... the earth .... the earth was not formless/shapeless .... it's condition thereon was ..... nothing was formed/created on it as of yet.

    He didn't create everything in it's final stage(s) in one spoken word. He created "space" and then filled the "space" with everything good (creation week). The earth was inhabitable/desolate until He created (shaped) the means for it to become inhabitable.
     
  5. Paul4JC

    Paul4JC It is for freedom that Christ has set us free

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    Keep avoiding my question, good job. (We are not talking about the Trinity.) The ancients who wrote the Bible did so in a Three-tier cosmology context. "Planet" is not in the text in Genesis. Sun, Moon, and stars are in vs 16.

    So to help you out, the word planet is found in Jde 1:13 NIV] They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

    The word planet literally means wandering in Greek….

    Strongs 4107 [e] planētai πλανῆται Greek Interlinear[1] wandering planEtai G4107 n_ Nom Pl m N-NMP a verb straying
    [1] Online Greek Interlinear Bible

    Just how did a verb become a noun today? Keep bowing to Sienctism and adding to the stated text of Genesis 1.

    You say this is not a relevant question, but you call out these "planets" on 5 days of the week without understanding Biblical cosmology. Biblically the earth is not a planet.
     
  6. Paul4JC

    Paul4JC It is for freedom that Christ has set us free

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    Thanks to your thread as this got me looking into this matter more. There does seem to be a connection to Leviathan. Never seen these verses pointing to its multi heads as in some mythologies.

    [Psa 74:13-14 NIV] 13 It was you who split open the sea by your power; you broke the heads of the monster in the waters. 14 It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave it as food to the creatures of the desert.

    13 Thou didst establish the sea, in thy might, thou didst break to pieces the heads of the §dragons in the water. 14 Thou didst break to pieces the heads of the dragon; thou didst give him for meat to the Ethiopian nations.
    Brenton Septuagint Translation Psalms 73



    Some interesting write-ups too.

    Texts relating Yahweh’s defeat of the sea monster:

    “Few Bible-believing Christians are aware that at least in a dozen texts of the OT, reference is made to the Lord’s conflict with a dragon or sea monster variously named as Rahab, ‘The Proud One,’ or Leviathan, ‘The Twisting One,’ or Yam, ‘The Sea.’” (5) Five of these texts are associated with the creation of the world."

    Creation and Chaos - Xenos Christian Fellowship
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    But again, that's not what the Bible says. It says nothing about "condition", as you opine.

    v1 clearly states that God created the heavens and earth.
    v.2 clearly says "and the earth was formless". That's impossible. To "see" condition in v.2 is to be "seeing things" that aren't there.

    The Bible says otherwise. Compare Gen 1:1 with Psa 33:9. Bingo. There's where the "big bang" comes from. God spoke, and the entire universe appeared. I doubt there it was a whisper.

    The Bible says clearly that God created the heavens and EARTH, not "space" as you continue to opine.

    Your opinions are not lining up with the Bible's clear words.

    No, it was a wasteland, as "tohu" means every where else. And it BECAME a wasteland, as the translation of that exact form of "hayah" is translated elsewhere.

    You seem to be conveniently ignoring some facts.
     
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I've answered your questions. What didn't you grasp?

    You really make me lol.

    The word "earth" in, oh, say, v.1 (the very first verse in the Bible) IS a planet. Unless you can prove otherwise. That should be interesting.

    Oh, I see. You think "planet" is the same as "star". Wow.

    So what? Are you denying that the earth is a planet?

    No wonder scientists scoff so much at YEC. They just ask for it.

    Once again, the earth is the planet.

    It would be nice to add some context to your comments. I have no idea what this is a response to. What supposed verb did I change into a noun today?

    Of course it is a planet.
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    You are welcome! :)

    Thanks for your contribution! Very interesting.
     
  10. Paul4JC

    Paul4JC It is for freedom that Christ has set us free

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    Have you studied biblical three-tier cosmology at all? I too always believed scientism into my 50's. Only recently I started re-examining my views. The Bible should not be forced around our paradigms, but the other way around. Most YEC believe as you do in planets and space. They do defend the Biblical flood(and a postdiluvian ice age) and I'm learning much from them in that area. At the end of the day, do you care more about those who scoff or about the truth? God will judge us how we "rightly divided" his word, though these are not salvation issues. God Bless
     
  11. Paul4JC

    Paul4JC It is for freedom that Christ has set us free

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    The Chaos Is No Match for the Cosmos - The Gospel Coalition

    Fighting with Chaos
    Greidanus painstakingly (and often fascinatingly) shows how the biblical storyline after the fall can be read as case after case of God bringing cosmos out of chaos. Sometimes this takes the form of God judging the wicked and saving his people with the same chaotic flood (48). Think Noah in the ark and Israel on the other side of the Red Sea. In both cases God brings cosmos to his people by fighting with the chaotic sea as his instrument (rather than fighting with the chaotic sea as his adversary). This is our sovereign God—the one who killed both our chaotic sins and also his demonic enemies with the same cross (Col. 2:13–15; Heb. 2:14–15).

    Chaos is simply no match for the One who “forms light and creates darkness, makes well-being and creates calamity” (Isa. 45:7).

    And that’s good news. Because as Greidanus shows, the entrance of sin unleashed a new kind of chaos (35); one that manifests itself in everything from sickness, famine, and death, to drug cartels, hurricanes, and wild animals. All these are graphic illustrations of the deepest, darkest form of chaos—sin itself, with its disordered rejection of God’s loving lordship and embrace of selfish autonomy.

    Thankfully, the God who conquered chaos by saying “Let light shine out of darkness” is able to shine in our dark, sinful hearts, bringing new creation life through the same Holy Spirit who brooded over the dark, chaotic waters in the beginning (2 Cor. 4:6; 5:17; Gen. 1:2)."
    ___________________________

    I would ask in this context, when did sin and the fall begin?

    Was it not before the fall of humanity through Adam and Eve?

    Did not Satan and his hordes fall first?

    Why are so many "gods" including in the Bible, linked to the waters?
    List of water deities - Wikipedia


    Is it not because the waters are linked to the underworld of the Bible?

    [Job 26:5-6 ] "The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them. 6 The realm of the dead (repha) is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered.

    Did this underworld exist before creation?

    [Job 26:5-6 ] "The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them. 6 The realm of the dead (repha) is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered.

    When were Tartarus and the abyss created?

    [2Pe 2:4 HNV] 4 For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;

    [Job 26:6 NASB20] "Sheol is naked before Him, And Abaddon has no covering.

    Was creation a response to the fall of Satan or despite his fall?

    Is Leviathon linked to Satan's fall?

    [Isa 27:1 NET] 1 At that time the LORD will punish with his destructive, great, and powerful sword Leviathan the fast-moving serpent, Leviathan the squirming serpent; he will kill the sea monster.

    Is this the chaos, abyss, and darkness God's creation is separating from?

    [Gen 1:2 NETS] Yet the earth was invisible and unformed, and darkness was over the abyss, and a divine wind was being carried along over the water.
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Actually, never heard of it.

    Never heard of "scientism" either. Could you define both terms?

    I don't have a paradigm, if you think I do. What I've done is study the Hebrew words as they are used in all the other occurrences in the OT. As well, I've studied Greek words in the NT that relate to "in the beginning".

    Ity all fits together.

    So you don't believe in planetsw and space and stuff??

    I don't care one whit about scoffers. Truth is paramount.

    That's what I am doing. 2 Tim 2:15.

    But how does 3-tier cosmology relate to God's truth and Scripture?
     
  13. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Gees in the beginning earth wasn’t formed into a planet yet and void of grass,trees,animals,people isn’t to deep of a mystery
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Nope, not deep at all. But because Moses used the word "earth" in v.1, it should be easy (not deep) to everyone that he was referring to good ol' planet earth, and all that came with it.

    If you disagree that the Hebrew words in v.2 are "but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland", please prove otherwise.

    This is what the 6 literal 24 hours days were focused on; restoration of the planet.
     
  15. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Let's look at Genesis 1.

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    The book of Genesis opens with a summary statement. We know this is a summary statement, because there was no heaven, or firmament, yet. Nor is there an earth yet.​

    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    The earth was without form. Formless and void (i.e. it didn't exist). There was only darkness upon the face of the deep (waters; Strong's H8415).

    It's important to note that God had only created water at this point, as the face of the deep was water.​

    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    The first day, God created the concept of day and night. Time keeping started (the first day), even though the heavenly clock wasn't created yet.​

    6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    God creates the firmament, or heaven, on the second day.​

    9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


    By the voice of God, water was gathered together into one place under the heaven (firmament), clearing a place where land would be created.
    Conclusion
    The earth was formed on the third day, into whatever shape it is, whether round as a planet or circular as a flat earth. In my mind, this was one land mass. Land didn't separate into separate continents until the flood.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  16. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I know formless and void is mentioned in another part of the Bible in context about Jerusalem, temple being destroyed then Judah was seized the people captive in another land.

    In the beginning all the earth broken down into single atoms is still earth only God knew exactly where each one was and formed earth into one ball of atoms. I don’t see any gap.
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I guess you're just jumping in the middle of a discussion of a lot of pages.

    The pont is that ALL matter HAS form. It may be irregular, such as a blob, but it is impossible for matter to be formless/shapeless.

    Yet, there is nothing in the first or second day that addresses 'form' of the earth. Or changing its form.

    Form doesn't deal with what is ON the earth, but the shape of the earth itself.

    So, the very act of creating earth means it HAD form THEN. No question.

    That's not form. All land, ground, earth, etc has FORM.

    So you aren't reading or accepting what Genesis 1:1 and 2 are saying. That's the problem with YEC. They don't read carefully.

    v.2 is an impossible condition. By creating earth, there IS form.

    No such thing as "formless matter". Doesn't exist.

    Whatever exists in the matter realm, has form.

    So, obviously, v.2 wasn't translated properly.
     
  18. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    You are referring to Jer 4:23. However, this is some of the context that precedes v.23:

    13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined!
    14 Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
    15 A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.
    16“Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.
    17 They surround her like men guarding a field, because she has rebelled against me,’ ” declares the LORD.
    18 “Your own conduct and actions have brought this on you. This is your punishment. How bitter it is! How it pierces to the heart!”
    20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment.
    23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.
    24 I looked at the mountains, and they were quaking; all the hills were swaying.

    Here are a number of translations of Jer 4:23 -
    American Standard Version
    I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    I looked in the earth, and behold, chaos and emptiness, and to the Heavens, and their light is not there
    English Revised Version
    I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
    Good News Translation
    I looked at the earth--it was a barren waste; at the sky--there was no light.
    JPS Tanakh 1917
    I beheld the earth, And, lo, it was waste and void; And the heavens, and they had no light.
    NET Bible
    "I looked at the land and saw that it was an empty wasteland. I looked up at the sky, and its light had vanished.
    New Heart English Bible
    I saw the earth, and, look, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
    World English Bible
    I saw the earth, and, behold, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
    Young's Literal Translation
    I looked to the land, and lo, waste and void, And unto the heavens, and their light is not.

    Here is the point: the Hebrew "tohu wabohu" occurs in Gen 1:2, and translated as "without form and void". And some translations of Jer 4:23 use the same translation as found in Gen 1:2.

    But these translations in context show destruction and waste from God's punishment on Israel.

    I am not suggesting that Gen 1:2 is a punishment, but simply a CONDITION, which required God to restore earth, which is the real story of the 6 24 hr days God worked.

    You are assuming what Moses DIDN'T write. He didn't refer to single atoms, which STILL have FORM. So no matter how you slice matter :))) you still have FORM.

    And then, v.2 doesn't exist in reality.

    Those who have eyes do see. I think the YEC just don't want to see. They are invested in their view.

    But "tohu wabohu" which occurs in both Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23, say the same thing.

    Go back and look at the these 2 verses from Jer 4:
    23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.
    24I looked at the mountains, and they were quaking; all the hills were swaying.

    Can you explain how v.23 can be true, that the earth "was formless and empty" when in the very next verse Jeremiah writes about mountains and hills?

    Certainly mountains and hills have form. I've seen plenty.

    Again, the phrase here also occurs in Gen 1:2. What Moses didn't write in 1:2 was that the earth was formless. That is impossible.

    So you have to figure out what "tohu" really means.
     
  19. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  20. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    the mountains quaking hills swaying figurative of a huge army moving across the land and sky’s darkened by smoke from burning city scourged earth/land.
    Your analogy pretty much is saying God found earth Israel in a condition in the beginning of genesis. Earth was formless not matter itself
     
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