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God created the earth and the earth was without form

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by FreeGrace2, May 13, 2021.

  1. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, really. I could speculate that the battle with fallen angels happened prior to God restoring the world, that Satan was cast down to a blank planet that perhaps was more like a piece of matter hurling through space, but who knows?
    I don't think there was an earth like we would recognize prior to verse two.
     
  2. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    I did not say science created earth, they created the idea that the earth God created, is a planet.
     
  3. SongOnTheWind

    SongOnTheWind Well-Known Member

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    Okay... I'm still not understanding what you're trying to say, and I don't want to misunderstand. Are you saying that science took over?
     
  4. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    That's similar to how Augustine interpreted it (at one point, anyway). He said it was prime matter (formless matter), which is essentially pure potential. He considered it to be a logical first, but not necessarily temporal first, since matter cannot really endure formless. That's if I read the last few chapter of Confessions correctly..
     
  5. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    That interesting, especially because he probably didn't have the modern science info about energy to matter conversion.
     
  6. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    I am saying that science/scientist and governments have convinced almost 95% of christians to believe that God's creation is a planet.

    When there is no evidence from the Bible that God created a planet.
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Waters in the shpe of one"? One what?

    Again, v.1 says God created the earth. v.2 says "and the earth was formless".

    As I noted in the OP, liquids and gases take the shape or form of what contains them. So EVERYTHING has a shape or form.

    Can you explain how the earth can be "formless"? That's impossible.
     
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    No offense, but this is ridiculous. Of course God created "a planet". In fact, He created every planet that exists. And every star, too.

    But, how you think "science" created a planet?

    You have not explained how a solid object (earth) can be formless. That is the issue of this thread.

    Can you address that?

    Again, v.1 says God created the earth (a solid object).
    v.2 says the earth (a solid object) was FORMLESS. How can that be?

    Are you saying that the "earth" of v.1 wasn't a planet?

    If "earth" of v.1 wasn't a planet, what exactly was it? Thanks.
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    You have as much theory as most who hold to a time gap between v.1 and 2 do.

    And you still haven't addressed the OP. Please explain how a solid object (earth) can be FORMLESS, for that is what the traditional translation says.

    And then, explain where in ch 1 is the account of God addressing His FORMLESS earth and making it shapely.

    Thanks.
     
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The basic issue here is how a solid object that everyone understands to be "earth" can be without form, or formless, or shapeless.

    YEC must be able to explain that since they fight tooth and nail about the actual translation of v.2, which is this:

    BUT, the earth BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND.......

    These are the key words and I can prove from biblehub.com that this is the common usage of these Hebrew words in the rest of the OT.
     
  11. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Well if you think this is ridiculous, then you are close to hearing any points to be made , so why waste my time on a person who has that attitude
     
  12. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    It reminds me of the potter and the clay...

    A blob of clay is formed into a useful shape - It sounds like the earth was originally a blob of matter without life - formless and void.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Yes you did, in post #18.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I think we can get the real story just from Scripture, as my posts reflect.
     
  15. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    So I did not read your whole explanation, are you talking about millions of years of life and death before verse two? Or just a formless earth?
     
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    You have just got to be kidding!! Are you actually serious?

    Just what do you think the globe you are presently sitting/standing or lying on is anyway?

    The concept of "earth" from Moses to the present day has not changed one bit. FYI
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    No offense, but this is ridiculous. Of course God created "a planet". In fact, He created every planet that exists. And every star, too.

    But, how you think "science" created a planet?

    You have not explained how a solid object (earth) can be formless. That is the issue of this thread.

    Can you address that?

    Again, v.1 says God created the earth (a solid object).
    v.2 says the earth (a solid object) was FORMLESS. How can that be?

    Are you saying that the "earth" of v.1 wasn't a planet?

    If "earth" of v.1 wasn't a planet, what exactly was it? Thanks.
    You are the one who said God didn't create planets, science did. Post #18, remember?

    I'm simply asking for clarification of what YOU said.

    If that presents an "attitude", then just deal with it.

    If you can't explain yourself better, why do you post? When posters ask for clarification, you need to help them out and explain yourself better.

    Another thing: don't deny something that is clearly evident to everyone. Bad form.
     
  18. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    But..... even a "blob" has a shape/form. Haven't you ever heard "It looked like a blob.

    Like I said, every object has a form or shape.

    Or, can you explain how a solid object can have no shape or form. Even in your example, you described shape. (blob)
     
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Well, now you're asking about theories. Which is where the "GAP theory" came from.

    What I'm talking about is simply the age of the earth. And those who actually dive into researching the key words in v.2 know that the "traditional translation" is woefully inadequate and even impossible. For as everyone knows, EVERY solid object as a form.

    So it is impossible for God to create a solid object (earth) formless.

    Can God create a round square. Or a square sphere?

    No. God cannot be inconsistent or contradictory. That would violate His perfection.

    As well, God cannot create a formless object.

    So the traditional translation of v.2 is wrong. And misleading.
     
  20. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Of course, you do. Augustine thought he was interpreting scripture in the best possible way, too. Although, he had enough humility to admit there might be another legitimate interpretation. Do you disagree with his take, if so, in what way? How would you characterize formless matter in a way that differentiates it from Augustine's prime matter?
     
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