FreeGrace2 said:
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Here's the catch: there is no context for v.2, except v.1. And given all the evidence I've pointed out, several things are clear:
There is no catch except the one you are inventing.
If you could put down your coffee mug for a bit, maybe you can point out where I am wrong. Thanks.
Who said the verse was talking about the overall shape, you?
If "shape" and "form" don't mean the same thing, please educate the thread. Thanks.
It is saying there were no land forms upon it yet.
No it is not saying anything like that. The traditional rendering clearly says "and the earth was without form". So you tell us what that really means.
Are you claiming that land has no form to it?
My whole point is that ALL matter has form and shape, even irregular shapes, or forms.
Genesis was not written in Greek but Hebrew.
No kidding, Capt Obvious.
While the Septuagint may have used 'But' this is a translation done in the third century BC. The Hebrew text does not use 'but'.
For your information, Hebrew doesn't have words for "and" and "but". Only 1 conjunction. And I believe the Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew into Greek (Septuagint) knew their Hebrew FAR BETTER than any scholar in the past century. So I give way more weight to the LXX than any English translation on that point. You're free to believe whatever you want to.
Only if you take Isaiah 45:18 completely out of context would you think that.
A phrase that is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of the SAME PHRASE (and words) in another verse isn't about context. It is about the very meaning of the words in the phrase.
You're just cowering behind "context" to avoid having to deal with the blatant contradiction. That's all.
Isaiah is not giving you the steps of creation.
lol. There are no "steps" of creation. God simply spoke the universe into existence.
Psa 33-
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD;
let all the people of the world revere him.
9 For
he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.
God is telling them that he did not create the world to be a wasteland but to be full.
Thank you. That is exactly MY POINT!!
Gen 1:2 as accepted says, "and the earth was (created) tohu (without form).
Isa 45:18 clearly says "God did not create the eartrh tohu (a wasteland).
Of course it was to be inhabited, and we have the evidence from Ezek 28 that Satan before his rebellion was in the Garden of Eden.
It is quite normal to say "A shapeless lump of clay" but does the person mean the clay literally has no shape at all?
It's just as easy and common to say a "blob of clay". Means the same thing.
And we all know that a blob is a description of an irregular shape.
Of course not, they mean it has not yet been shaped by their hands so it is 'shapeless'.
Word games aren't for me. Meaning is. And "form" and "shape" are synonymous, or at least interchangeable.
So again, the earth, a form or shape, cannot be without form.
Formless meaning no mountains, valleys, coast lines. There can't be any to start with as it was water that the spirit was hovering over.
You are inserting eisegesis.
Genesis 1:9 is about God creating form.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Where elsewhere?
Also this is the first indication, the precedent.
Even liquids have shape in space. We call it a perfect sphere.
The only other time God directly talks about how he created is in Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
And again in
Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”
Neither of these verses addresses God creating form or shape to earth.
In fact, again, ALL matter has form and shape, if you think they are different.
But, prove me wrong with examples.
I said:
"And that shows that something did happen to earth and it BECAME an uninhabitable (void) wasteland (tohu)."
I have shown it from biblehub.com by comparing the key words in v.2 with the exact form of the word used elsewhere.
If you don't believe me, do the research yourself.
What is your point here really? Why do you want this world to be a remake?
What makes you think this is about what I want? You're not thinking very deep.
What I want is to KNOW the truth of Scripture. v.2 cannot be true as written because all matter has form.
The exact form of 'hayah' translated "was" is translated as either "become" or "became" almost 60% of the time in the OT, while it was translated only 6% of the time as "was". So go figure. And that included v.2.
I said:
"In space, all liquids form a perfect sphere. So you are back to square 1."
Now you are trying to bring in science. Which is it, the Bible or science?
Are you allergic to facts? Ask any astronaut about liquids in space. Or google it yourself.
Who cares? We are talking about the steps God used in creating the earth not about science. God creating is a supernatural event.
Psa 33:8,9 refutes your opinion about God taking "steps" in creating earth.
I SAID:
"Land was under water in v.2. And land is a solid object and has shape."
Which sentence are you having trouble with? I'm not sure.
There is no problem with formless since it is referring to the land shapes of which there were none.
Now it's my turn. You don't know that. You have absolutely NO IDEA what Moses was referring to. The text is clear. The earth. Which contains both land and water.
Your opinion is all wet.
Of course it is, it's referencing that there were no land forms.
Did you interview Moses or something?
Moses wrote "but the earth became tohu". He was clearly speaking of the globe we call planet earth.
You are just guessing. But you don't have to. Just read and accept the very words he wrote.