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God created the earth and the earth was without form

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by FreeGrace2, May 13, 2021.

  1. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    yea tohu doesn't mean waste in every usage but like i said you have dialed in on it, i get it you made up your mind so have i.
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    OK, Heb 11:3. Did you check out the interlinear and find "katartizo", and did you see how it's translated every other place?
     
  3. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    When Heb 11:3 uses "katartizo" for what God did, that weighs heavily on meaning.

    But I know your mind is made up to. But not on facts. On just a poor translation of Gen 1:2.
     
  4. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Right, that is establishing the setting. The creation of the heavens and the earth is what happens as described in the six days of creation. The creation of the heavens and the earth is the setting, the creative work doesn't begin until later. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, or perhaps more accuratley translated, "In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth", it goes on to say, the earth was a formless waste and there was only the abyss of the deep.

    I'm not sure where you're getting that. I'm assuming you saw that the verb haya is listed in Strong's as "to be" and "become", the thing here is that this ignores the conjugation of the verb. The verb isn't haya in Genesis 1:2 but hayehah, that is in the past tense, "was". "The earth was a formless wasteland", v'haEretz yahehah tohu va-bahu, "And the earth was a formless waste"


    My evidence of this is Genesis 1:1-2.

    I don't believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch, the Penteteuch is the product of multiple writers. But, sure, if one wants to attribute the work to Moses--or whoever--the answer is yes. The ancient biblical writers used images and language present within their culture. But in Genesis the work is subversive--it takes the language of those stories and turns them on their head.

    First, let's be clear that I said Genesis chapter 1 doesn't mention creation ex nihilo. I never said the Bible doesn't teach creation ex nihilo, only that it isn't present in Genesis chapter 1.

    Second, Psalm 33:8-9 doesn't mention creation ex nihilo either. It's saying that things came to be by His word and command. That is both true with creation ex nihilo, and with the Genesis narrative.

    What Psalm 33:8-9 doesn't do is say that Genesis 1 mentions creation ex nihilo. If you ask me, the best Scriptural passage for creation ex nihilo comes from a books of the Bible most Protestants don't even recognize as Scripture, for example 2 Maccabees 7:28,

    "So I urge you, my child, to look at the sky and the earth. Consider everything you see there, and realize that God made it all from nothing, just as he made the human race."

    Just so there's no confusion. I absolutely do believe that God created the whole universe ex nihilo--from nothing. My point was simply pointing out that Genesis 1:1-2 doesn't teach that, it assumes an already existing world--the formless waste of the earth and the abyss of the deep--which God then begins His creative work, taking and giving shape to these by speaking light into existence, separating light and darkness as day and night, etc.

    I should also make myself clear that I don't believe that Genesis chapter 1 is supposed to be taken as a literal description of creation.

    -CryptoLutheran[/quote]
     
  5. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    This event could have happened millions of years ago.

    Hebrew 12:25-27 He created it not in vain
    He formed it to be inhabited.

    Satan had already been cast down, and had already rebelled against God
    by the time of Adam and Eve; that is proven by his already being in his
    role of tempter against Eve in God's Garden. "that old serpent"

    "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
    -

    Gen 1:2 And the earth [was] H1961

    H1961
    ???
    ha^ya^h
    haw-yaw'
    A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

    The same word is used when Lots wife looked
    back and [became] a pillar of salt. Gen 19:26

    "But his wife looked back from behind him,
    and she [became]H1961 a pillar of salt.
    -

    Gen 1:2 without form, H8414 and void; H922
    [Heb. tohu and bohu—chaotic, in confusion,
    waste and empty]

    H8414
    ?????
    to^hu^
    to'-hoo
    From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

    H922
    ?????
    bo^hu^
    bo'-hoo
    From an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, that is, (superficially)
    an undistinguishable ruin: - emptiness, void.
    -

    and darkness H2822
    was upon the face of the deep.

    H2822
    ????
    cho^shek
    kho-shek'
    From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.
    -

    Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created:
    and thou renewest the face of the earth. psalms 104:30

    -In 6 days God renewed the face of the earth.

    The creation of Romans 8 cannot be desiring and hoping for a release from
    bondage if it had not at first been perfect and not in bondage sometime before.

    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying,
    "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

    27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things
    that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot
    be shaken may remain.

    That Hebrews 12 Scripture is declaring that God once more will shake
    not the earth only, but also heaven. That description comes from Scripture
    like Isaiah 2, Isaiah 13, and Haggai 2 about the future when God will cause
    this earth to tremble in removing the 'elements' of man's works off it (2 Pet.3:10).

    Why the phrase "once more" though, which points to at least one previous time
    that He shook the earth to that level?
    -

    We know asteroids hit the earth killing dinosaurs.
    Places like Dinosaur Tracks contest to it.
    Navajo Nation To Preserve Dinosaur Tracks

    After impact, the earth was covered with water.
    Asteroid Crashes Likely Gave Earth Its Water | Space

    "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    This ignores the clear meaning of v.2, which is: BUT the earth BECAME a wasteland.

    I have shown this from the uses of "hayah" and "tohu" in other verses throughout the OT.

    No, the 6 literal 24 hours days were RESTORATION. And Heb 11:3 speaks of Genesis using "katartizo", which is translated "mended" in the gospels and used of disciples mending their nets, and in Gal 6:1 of restoring a believer caught in sin.

    But, ALL matter has form. Down to the smallest level. Atoms and molecules have form.

    Matter cannot be formless. Even the word shapeless ascribed to something or someone isn't accurate, because a stovepipe has a shape, just no curves.

    Nope. The conjunction in Hebrew goes either way. The Septuigant translated it as "but", because those Hebrew scholars recognized a change or contrast in the words.

    Second, I researched EVERY use of the EXACT SAME FORM for "hayah" in the OT, and there are 111. Of all of them, nearly 60% were translated as either "became" or "become", and, only 6% were translated as "was". So the vast majority of translations recognize that form as something that changed into something else.

    Interesting. My evidence of this is Genesis 1:1,2 as well. But I have researched all the key words in v.2 as they occur in the rest of the OT and it's clear that the meaning is found in how those words were translated elsewhere.

    What is "subversive"? It is the traditional translation that turns the truth on its head.

    btw, given the traditional translation of v.2, we have this:

    and the earth was tohu. Let's not quibble about what that word means.

    Isa 45:18 says this:

    but God did NOT create the earth tohu.

    Accept the traditional translation of v.2 and you have a huge contradiction in the Bible.

    Then what's your point? It doesn't have to be there to be a fact.

    You mean "God spoke and it came to be" doesn't appy to Gen 1??? lol

    The entire chapter is about God SAYING "let there be...."

    Connect the dots. It is easy.

    It seems you are just quibbling now.

    It didn't have to.

    I'm not asking. :)

    Truth is truth whereever it is found.

    I strongly disagree. I'm surprised after quoting from Maccabees that you would even say this.

    To "assume" there was some kind of an existing formless waste of earth that God then took over to shape, etc is beyond me.

    Wow.
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Absolutely.

    Huh?

    25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
    26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”
    27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

    This isn't anything close to what you stated with your citation.

    I think you meant Isa 45:18

    Exactly. The form of the word "hayah" indicates a change. Becoming something else.

    She sure did!

    Thank you. This is what the v.1 created earth BECAME.

    yep.

    This is what the earth BECAME.

    Exactly. God restored the earth after it BECAME a wasteland.

    You've done a great job of research, and proving what I am saying about Genesis 1:2. :oldthumbsup:
     
  8. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What about Dark matter that has not been directly observed.
    "a mysterious, dark force that is pulling galaxies apart."

    Dark Energy, Dark Matter
    Dark Energy, Dark Matter | Science Mission Directorate

    "More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there
    is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other
    than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery.

    It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy.
    Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth,
    everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal
    matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe. "
    -

    Dark matter
    Dark matter - Wikipedia

    Dark matter has not been directly observed, but its presence is implied in a
    variety of astrophysical measurements, notably when observing gravitational
    effects that cannot be explained by visible matter alone. For this reason most
    experts consider that dark matter is ubiquitous in the universe and has strongly
    affected its structure and evolution.

    The name dark matter refers to the fact that it does not appear to interact with observable electromagnetic radiation, such as light, and is thus invisible (or 'dark')
    to the entire electromagnetic spectrum, making it extremely difficult to detect
    using usual astronomical equipment.[1]
    -

    What is dark matter? No one knows. We can register its effects,
    but we cannot see it or measure it.

    When God spoke to Job about the universe, He asked Job,

    “Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness,
    where is the place thereof, that thou shouldest take it to
    the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to
    the house thereof?” (Job 38:19-20).

    The Living Bible “Tell me about the darkness. Where does it come from?
    Can you find its boundaries, or go to its source?”

    Romans 1:20 says “the invisible things of him from the creation
    of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things
    that are made .…”

    The visible universe shows that there must be this
    invisible matter or force holding it all together.

    -We can see the invisible power of God by seeing the visible.

    "By the power of God “were all things created, that are in heaven,
    and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones,
    or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all thing were created by him,
    and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist”
    (Colossians 1:16-17).

    “By him all things consist” or are held together. Perhaps “dark matter”
    is actually the invisible power of God holding the universe together.

    Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus Christ is “upholding the universe by his word
    of power” (rsv). Upholding comes from a Greek word meaning to bear or carry.

    God says in Psalm 75:3 that “When the earth totters, and all its inhabitants,
    it is I who keep steady its pillars” (rsv). God holds together and sustains
    the universe by His power.


    Whatever “dark matter” actually is, we know that God created all things
    —both visible and invisible—and that He is the Sustainer of the universe.
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The Bible didn't mention "dark matter". It mentions earth, which is matter, and has form.

    This isn't relevant to Gen 1:1.

    True. And thanks for the info. I do agree that God created whatever "dark matter" is. But Genesis 1 deals with matter. Which has form. And renders v.2 impossible, since all matter has form.

    God cannot create "formless matter".
     
  10. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You mean there is a limit to what God can do? huh
     
  11. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I did not mean it to be, and never said it did.

    You said all matter has a form or shape, or no "formless matter".
    Does "dark matter" have form or shape?

    What does "invisible things" in Romans 1:20 mean ?
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I said:
    God cannot create "formless matter".
    So then, do you believe that God can create a spherical cube?

    Do you believe that God can sin?

    That's basically what your question insinuates.

    When God creates matter, it HAS form. Ask any scientist about molecules and atoms and such. They all have form.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I wasn't speaking about dark matter. Nor was Moses. So your comments about dark matter are not relevant to Genesis 1.

    It means things we can't see.

    The earth was created. It was seen. There is nothing in ch 1 about the earth BECOMING seen.
     
  14. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As I said before, I did not mean it to be,
    and never said it was connected to Gen 1.

    I asked a question "Does "dark matter" have form or shape?
    This had nothing to do with Gen 1, but about your comment.
    "God cannot create formless matter".
    -

    "68% of the universe is dark energy,
    Dark matter makes up about 27%, all other
    normal matter - adds up to less than 5%.
    -

    Massless particle - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  15. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well some of what you said you should know but since you ask about sin and God.

    James 1:13
    Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.


    Can God create a spherical cube if He wanted too Yes i believe He could do You?

    Matt 19:26
    Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    matter has nothing to do with rather earth was formed into sphere, in the beginning the earth was without shape a sphere. doesn't mean the atoms that make up a sphere earth wasn't present.

    your are trying to include wiping out all matter because the earth wasn't a sphere in the beginning makes no sense. like what is evaporated water is it still in the form of liquid water or something else
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    When I speak of all matter having form, I am only speaking about Gen 1:1. When God created the heavens and earth, they were quite visible.

    Regarding "dark matter", when scientist ever figure it out, then we'll have the answer to your question. Hopefully.
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Can you answer my questions?

    Can God sin?
    Can God be inconsistent?

    The obvious answers to these questions are NO.

    Yep.

    No, that would be a contradiction.

    But at least I know you think God can be inconsistent.

    This has nothing to do with sin or being inconsistent.

    I will say again, all matter has a form. Whether highly irregular or not.

    What??!! How am I "trying to include wiping out all matter"?

    What's your point? Water has form, in EVERY state.

    As a liquid, it takes on the form of whatever contains it.
    As a solid, it still has form.
    As a gas, it has form. Call it a cloud, or whatever.

    If something can be seen, it HAS form. Period.

    I have no idea what you are trying to defend here.

    Gen 1:2 cannot be true, as translated.

    However, the correct rendering contains no impossiblity.

    "but, the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland".
     
  18. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have no idea what you are trying defend either
     
  19. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    the answer to your question is, sin is a choice and it is possible God can not sin but with man it is not possible.
     
  20. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

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    a cloud is hydrogen and oxygen gases condensing which forms a cloud of a liquid,solid, and a gas but water in pure molecular gas form you cannot see molecular gas with your naked eyes unless it condenses.

    when the earth was formless and void it simply was not in the solid state as today or when those scripture words was inspired to write to minds that didn't understand what formed atoms are.

    Just because you think a formless earth means nothing was in form doesn't make it is correct.
     
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