God created the earth and the earth was without form

FreeGrace2

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I have no idea what you are trying defend either
Not "defending" anything. I am showing that Gen 1:2 cannot be correct as traditionally rendered.

It should be: but the earth became an uninhabited wasteland.

That's all.
 
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FreeGrace2

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the answer to your question is, sin is a choice and it is possible God can not sin but with man it is not possible.
By saying "it is possible God can not sin" you are suggesting that is is also just as possible that God can sin.

I suggest you pay attention to what you post.
 
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FreeGrace2

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a cloud is hydrogen and oxygen gases condensing which forms a cloud of a liquid,solid, and a gas but water in pure molecular gas form you cannot see molecular gas with your naked eyes unless it condenses.
Who's talking "pure molecular gas"? But you already sunk your boat by using the word "forms a cloud" and molecular gas FORM". There you go.

All matter has form. And you just admitted it.

when the earth was formless and void it simply was not in the solid state as today or when those scripture words was inspired to write to minds that didn't understand what formed atoms are.
I suppose you can prove your claim here? Of course you can't. And your first phrase cannot be true. "when the earth was formless". I've already pointed out that ALL matter has form, and you, in this post of yours, basically agreed.

Just because you think a formless earth means nothing was in form doesn't make it is correct.
I never defined "a formless earth means nothing was in form".

I have argued that there is NO SUCH THING as a formless earth. That is impossble, because again, ALL matter, including earth, has a form.
 
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BeyondET

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Who's talking "pure molecular gas"? But you already sunk your boat by using the word "forms a cloud" and molecular gas FORM". There you go.

All matter has form. And you just admitted it.


I suppose you can prove your claim here? Of course you can't. And your first phrase cannot be true. "when the earth was formless". I've already pointed out that ALL matter has form, and you, in this post of yours, basically agreed.


I never defined "a formless earth means nothing was in form".

I have argued that there is NO SUCH THING as a formless earth. That is impossble, because again, ALL matter, including earth, has a form.

there you go again wanting to wipe out all form because the bible says earth was formless. you can't even distinguish a hydrogen gas from a oxygen gas without some kind of man made instrument.
 
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BeyondET

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By saying "it is possible God can not sin" you are suggesting that is is also just as possible that God can sin.

I suggest you pay attention to what you post.

You are suggesting because you brought up the question not me and in my opinion its not wise to question rather God can sin or not. then again that depends on if you believe in God and only you know that answer.
 
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FreeGrace2

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there you go again wanting to wipe out all form because the bible says earth was formless.
No, the Bible DOESN'T say that. That's been my point.

Gen 1:2 was poorly translated. Go back and read the OP. It's all been explained.

It actually reads "but the earth became an uninhabited wasteland."

you can't even distinguish a hydrogen gas from a oxygen gas without some kind of man made instrument.
So what?
 
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FreeGrace2

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You are suggesting because you brought up the question not me and in my opinion its not wise to question rather God can sin or not.
No, it was your question that I was showing by example how ridiculous it was.

then again that depends on if you believe in God and only you know that answer.
Of course I do. And He created the earth perfectly. But it became a wasteland.

And He didn't tell us why or how. And it doesn't matter.
 
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BeyondET

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No, it was your question that I was showing by example how ridiculous it was.


Of course I do. And He created the earth perfectly. But it became a wasteland.

And He didn't tell us why or how. And it doesn't matter.

now your trying to twist that on me, it was you that asked me is it possible for God to sin and wanted me to answer it, lets not play twister.
 
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BeyondET

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No, the Bible DOESN'T say that. That's been my point.

Gen 1:2 was poorly translated. Go back and read the OP. It's all been explained.

It actually reads "but the earth became an uninhabited wasteland."


So what?

the bible doesn't say it was a poor translation that is your opinion based off of reading other verses in the bible. And by looking at what tohu means which has multiple meanings depending on context yet you have chosen to say it means waste as for the meaning in genesis.
 
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FreeGrace2

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now your trying to twist that on me, it was you that asked me is it possible for God to sin and wanted me to answer it, lets not play twister.
I've twisted nothing. My question was illustrating your question.

So, please take your own advise and not play twister. My silly question was in response to your question.

See my post #122 ans 125. It's very clear.
 
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FreeGrace2

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the bible doesn't say it was a poor translation
The Bible comment on ANY translation. That would be quite odd.

My point is what the words in Gen 1:2 actually mean.

that is your opinion based off of reading other verses in the bible.
No. I have compared the key words in v.2 with how those SAME WORDS are translated elsewhere. That's how to understand the meaning of words.

And by looking at what tohu means which has multiple meanings depending on context yet you have chosen to say it means waste as for the meaning in genesis.
Actually, it doesn't have "multiple meanings". And as for "context", since God didn't give any context, there is none.

But by holding onto the silly "formless" translation of v.2, you have 2 problems.

The first is the contradiction with Isa 45:18. It says "God did NOT create the earth tohu".

But you accept Gen 1:1,2 as God created the earth tohu.

The word means 1 thing. Not "multiple things", as you hope.

Second, there is no way the earth could ever be "formless" anyway.

ALL matter has form. Go ask any scientist.
 
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AV1611VET

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This is for Young Earth Creationists:
I'm not a YEC, but I'll give it a shot.
FreeGrace2 said:
Since planet earth HAS form or shape, what does the Bible mean by a "formless earth"? How is that even possible, since all solid objects have a form or shape?
When God created the earth, He first created it as a mass of seawater in the hollow of His hand.

Isaiah 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

The reason I say seawater is because seawater contains all the natural elements of the Periodic Table in it, and God is going to use some of those elements to further create the landmass that will emerge later.

Anyway, the earth is a mass of seawater in the hollow of God's hand; and thus "formless and void."
FreeGrace2 said:
Even more difficult, where in Genesis 1 does God address His "formless earth" and give it some form or shape?
When He creates light.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Light, as in the electromagnetic spectrum, which is one of the four forces of the universe, along with gravity, the weak nuclear force, and the strong nuclear force.

Gravity then shapes the mass of water into a ball.
FreeGrace2 said:
So how did the earth become a perfect sphere if God created the earth without form?
When God set the earth into rotation, centrifugal force shaped it into what it is today: an oblate spheroid.

Neat, huh?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I'm not a YEC, but I'll give it a shot.When God created the earth, He first created it as a mass of seawater in the hollow of His hand.

Isaiah 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
This verse doesn't say what you claim. There is nothing about creation here.

The reason I say seawater is because seawater contains all the natural elements of the Periodic Table in it, and God is going to use some of those elements to further create the landmass that will emerge later.
Nice guess.

Anyway, the earth is a mass of seawater in the hollow of God's hand; and thus "formless and void."When He creates light.
You do understand, I hope, that even liquids take the form of whatever contains them.

Oh, and in space, liquid forms a perfect circle. Google it.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Light, as in the electromagnetic spectrum, which is one of the four forces of the universe, along with gravity, the weak nuclear force, and the strong nuclear force.
This doesn't address the fact that ALL matter has form.

Gravity then shapes the mass of water into a ball.When God set the earth into rotation, centrifugal force shaped it into what it is today: an oblate spheroid.

Neat, huh?
Of course. And you just affirmed my statements. So even if the earth was initiallly created as a waterball, that has a form.

So, again, "without form" cannot exist when matter is the issue.
So, what's your plan B?
 
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Theopolitan

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This is for Young Earth Creationists:

Since planet earth HAS form or shape, what does the Bible mean by a "formless earth"? How is that even possible, since all solid objects have a form or shape?

Even more difficult, where in Genesis 1 does God address His "formless earth" and give it some form or shape?

So how did the earth become a perfect sphere if God created the earth without form? And why doesn't the "creation account" give us any details about this?

To be clear, I am a very conservative evangelical and I do believe Genesis 1 describes the "six days" to be literal 24 hours days.

But I'm interested in how the YEC will (or if) answer my questions about a "formless earth".
In the seven-day timeline of Genesis 1, it might be useful to note that where it is said the earth had no form, the heaven hadn't yet been formed either. There was only "the deep," which is collectively the heaven and the earth, the universe, or rather the raw material thereof. One could say, In the beginning, God created the deep. The earth hadn't yet been formed or filled, there was yet no light.
 
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FreeGrace2

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In the seven-day timeline of Genesis 1, it might be useful to note that where it is said the earth had no form, the heaven hadn't yet been formed either. There was only "the deep," which is collectively the heaven and the earth, the universe, or rather the raw material thereof. One could say, In the beginning, God created the deep. The earth hadn't yet been formed or filled, there was yet no light.
No, v.2 doesn't ay any of this.

It actually says, BUT, the earth BECAME a wasteland.
 
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BeyondET

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According to which text?

He is using a translation of the Hebrew word "tohu" which has multiple meanings depending on context but he is choosing the one that fits his narrative "gap theory" basically.
 
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Theopolitan

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He is using a translation of the Hebrew word "tohu" which has multiple meanings depending on context but he is choosing the one that fits his narrative "gap theory" basically.
That and forcing an unintended meaning to the word "form."
 
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Theopolitan

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No, v.2 doesn't ay any of this.

It actually says, BUT, the earth BECAME a wasteland.
After reading a few posts I see your problem, but there are others who have had the correct answer to your arguments, and you simply dismissed them, and I don't expect to be treated any differently.

It was brought to your attention that the Apostle had said the earth was formed from water, aka, "the deep." Man was formed from the dust of the earth, but you couldn't reasonably and intelligently argue that man had form before Day Six, even though the matter was there.

If I had to do so much violence to the texts of Scripture to support my presuppostions, I would start to question my presuppositions.
 
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FreeGrace2

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According to which text?
According to the actual meaning of the Hebrew words. Anyone can do the research and realize this. It involves looking at the same key words in v.2 with how those SAME words are translated elsewhere in the OT and how Hebrew lexicon defines them.
 
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