GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Christos Anesti]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil like everything else was good. Man wasn't mature enough to make use of it properly so God forbid them to eat of it. The tree didn't have evil inside of it as if evil were some created substance.

"The tree of knowledge was for trial, and proof, and exercise of man.s obedience and disobedience: and hence it was named the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or else it was because to those who partook of it was given power to know their own nature. Now this is a good thing for those who are mature, but an evil thing for the immature and those whose appetites are too strong1778, being like solid food to tender babes still in need of milk1779. For our Creator, God, did not intend us to be burdened with care and troubled about many things, nor to take thought about, or make provision for, our own life. But this at length was Adam.s fate: for he tasted and knew that he was naked and made a girdle round about him: for he took fig-leaves and girded himself about. But before they took of the fruit, They were both naked, Adam and Eve, and were not ashamed1780. For God meant that we should be thus free from passion, and this is indeed the mark of a mind absolutely void of passion. Yea, He meant us further to be free from care and to have but one work to perform, to sing as do the angels, without ceasing or intermission, the praises of the Creator, and to delight in contemplation of Him and to cast all our care on Him. This is what the Prophet David proclaimed to us when He said, Cast thy burden on the Lord, and He will sustain thee1781. And, again, in the Gospels, Christ taught His disciples saying, Take no thought for your life what ye shall eat, nor for your body what ye shall put on1782. And further, Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you1783. And to Martha He said, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her1784, meaning, clearly, sitting at His feet and listening to His words. "
-St John of Damascus

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I thought iniquity was a mystery.

in the beginning everything was "very good"

so where sin came from is indeed a mystery,

can God be pleased by sin?

 

[OzSpen]

Michael,

I thought iniquity was a mystery.

in the beginning everything was "very good"

so where sin came from is indeed a mystery,

can God be pleased by sin?

Hasn't God made it clear in Genesis 3 where sin/iniquity came from?

Oz

 

[Hismessenger]

The tree didn't have evil inside of it as if evil were some created substance.

If it wasn't created, then where did it come from? You still miss the essence of creation verses alteration from it's definition. God has made it clear but most won't accept the truth for their own understandings.

hismessenger

 

[Christos Anesti]

Hismessanger,

It wasn't the tree of good and evil. As if good and evil were substances dwelling in a literal tree. The tree like everything else created by God was good. All that God made was "very good". It was the miuses of the tree by man that was evil. Evil is the misuse of the good.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Michael,

Hasn't God made it clear in Genesis 3 where sin/iniquity came from?

Oz

He said of lucifer that you were perfect until the day sin was found in you.

so to say God didn't see it there in the beginning when He looked at "everything" He made and said it was "very good" would mean God is blind.

so the origin of sin is not in the text .

thus it is a mystery .

 

[Hismessenger]

All that God made was "very good".

A point I fully agree with. But you still haven't recognized the truth of where it came from.

You understand that everything which God created was good but you fail to see that even the evil, which was also created, was also "GOOD" for the purpose for which it was created.

There is no darkness in God so that alone should tell us that evil is a created thing which is part of this creation. No creation, no evil, only God who is good. it is in the scriptures. There is only one who is GOOD is what Christ said. Look beyond the surface and see in the spirit the truth.

It will not harm you but only serve to enlighten you to who God is. The ruler of everything, even things which are not within our scope of understanding.

He is God all by himself. He doesn't need us to exist. We need Him to be who we are according as he purposed us before time began.

hismessenger

 

[RibI]

The orgin of sin is found in Ezek. 28:14-16.
Sin is the result of the choice of the sinner.
It is not something God created.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

A point I fully agree with. But you still haven't recognized the truth of where it came from.

You understand that everything which God created was good but you fail to see that even the evil, which was also created, was also "GOOD" for the purpose for which it was created.

There is no darkness in God so that alone should tell us that evil is a created thing which is part of this creation. No creation, no evil, only God who is good. it is in the scriptures. There is only one who is GOOD is what Christ said. Look beyond the surface and see in the spirit the truth.

It will not harm you but only serve to enlighten you to who God is. The ruler of everything, even things which are not within our scope of understanding.

He is God all by himself. He doesn't need us to exist. We need Him to be who we are according as he purposed us before time began.

hismessenger

sin is an anti existence

and defies system perameters of the "very good"

Jesus had to surpass system perameters through the resurrection to defy that which defies system perameters.

the power of Jesus is of a world in which sin is not able to enter .

but because God's words cannot come back to Him void,

creations resurrected with sin, will be cast into the lake of fire i.e. the fire wall of the new creation.

so that the new heaven and the new earth is not infected with sin .

 

[OzSpen]

Michael,

He said of lucifer that you were perfect until the day sin was found in you.

so to say God didn't see it there in the beginning when He looked at "everything" He made and said it was "very good" would mean God is blind.

so the origin of sin is not in the text .

thus it is a mystery .

I note that you do not provide biblical references to support your points.

Oz

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Michael,

I note that you do not provide biblical references to support your points.

Oz

Neither did Jesus.

you might want to read your bible again, everything i referred to is in there.

 

[OzSpen]

Michael,

Neither did Jesus.

you might want to read your bible again, everything i referred to is in there.

Major problem! You are not Jesus!

Oz

 

[Hairy Tic]

Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.

With these great attributes of God, its hard to imagine how evil ever came to be, that is as we know it to be. Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error. We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker! Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer. (rebellion is no doubt an imperfection) Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible! Even men never quarrel with their tools! We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future. U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way! According to an Omniscient God FREE WILL doesn't exist.

So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan. God designed both good and evil, he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.

My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.

This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....

And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him

## I think your last question is incomplete; what was it ? I agree with much of what you've said, but not with all of it.

God did not create sin, because sin is not an actual thing. It's more like a perversion of an existing thing, a parasite on things that are real. It has by itself no reality whatever. Whatever exists, is by definition good - good and being are the same.

I find it helpful to think of sin as like a relation between things - or rather, a mis-relation between them. For example, a whirlwind is not evil - it is a natural phenomenon, which is fine as the thing that it is: it is good for a whirlwind to be a whirlwind, and to behave as a whirlwind; what would bad, would for it to behave as what is not.

So when the whirlwind hits an urban centre, and causes immense destruction and kills & injures hundreds, even thousands, of people, it is behaving as a whirlwind should - it is good as a whirlwind; it's just unfortunate that the place in which it is being a good whirlwind is not a good place for it to be. It can't be blamed for acting as it does or where it it does, because it is not a moral agent; just a particular thing, which expresses its nature by acting in a particular way. If there were not people living in its path, its behavour would not cause any problems. But as they are, there are serious problems.

Evil - including the moral evil that is known as sin - is like what one has when two things, each good as the thing it is, are combined in a way that causes damage. The relation of being together in such a way that the good of one thing is damaging to the good of the other, is where evil & sin are "located". It is good for man to use his free-will - he is meant to use it; what is not good, but very bad indeed, is for man to use this good thing in order to assert himself against God. Because that is completely unnatural - if anything is perverse, sin is. Man is not created to sin - he is created to love God. But that means recognising that he is not God - that God alone is God.

What do you understand by free will ? I understand it as the capacity, and the action, of being able (by virtue of one's nature), to choose, and choosing, X rather than Y.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Michael,

Major problem! You are not Jesus!

Oz

I'm co-heir with Christ, and He said because He went to the Father, I would do greater things than Him.

but, neither did Paul.

if you don't know your bible, you're not really in a position to be questioning other people's teachings.

 

[Hismessenger]

It has been said on this thread, God is not blind to what He created, but man is.

God knows the lives and actions of people who have yet to take their first breath but man in his finite mind says that God allows. For those who have yet to take a breath, what is there for Him to allow when He orchestrated all the creation. That includes you and I.

Jesus came to give sight to the blind. Not just the physical blindness, but the spiritual blindness which has man locked in his own self sufficiency and devoid of the truth of who God is and what He has done. Not is doing. The beginning and the end before it was even made manifest.

But man wants to limit their creator to that which they understand. Having no true understanding. As God has said, He can show us things which we can't even imagine. Did not God chastise Job for this same iniquity?

hismessenger

 

[cf4rc]

Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.

With these great attributes of God, its hard to imagine how evil ever came to be, that is as we know it to be. Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error. We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker! Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer. (rebellion is no doubt an imperfection) Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible! Even men never quarrel with their tools! We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future. U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way! According to an Omniscient God FREE WILL doesn't exist.

So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan. God designed both good and evil, he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.

My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.

This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....

And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him

Peace to you...

You say "GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!" as if you are absolutely sure of such a statement being fact...your "facts" and "evidence" provided leave much to be desired as proof of what you say...

Confusion comes with not having a good understanding of the Word of God which allows us to be influenced by 'the traditions of man' rather than what "God Said"! What "God Said" is what matters...not what we think or have been taught by man...God tells us...we do not tell God.


Of the first heaven and earth age:

Fact...the Word never speaks of God being "omniscient".

I challenge you...to show me one instance where God tells us in His Word that He was 'omniscient'...that He knew of all things when..."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". This misleading belief is from 'the traditions of man'...it is not from God's Word.

Opinion...because it is a mystery of God not clearly defined in His Word...but supported by discernment of scripture and common sense...

God did not know of evil and sin because He did not create them and had never even witnessed them before. They had never existed...Lucifer...later known as Satan and the devil...first brought them into existance from within himself. You know...the 'real first sin' of all time...before the Garden.

Ezekiel 28:11-19 includes this: "Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth" in the first heaven and earth age...and "Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created (he could not have been evil or sinful), till iniquity was found in thee"

Strong's H4672; was found (Niphal)
1) to be found
a) to be encountered, be lighted upon, be discovered
b) to appear, be recognised
c) to be discovered, be detected
d) to be gained, be secured

So therefore, it was by his own free will given by God that he chose through pride to challenge God's authority and thereby have iniquity be encountered, be discovered, be recognized, be detected or appear for the very first time...ever.

Lucifer and all others God created must have been given "Free Will' to choose just as we have now. For love of God must come from choosing to do so if it is to really mean anything to Him. God will never...ever...make someone love Him or hate Him...that choice is made by each individual being created by God having been given the free will to choose rather to love Him or not.

GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL...Period!

With that said...Understand this; It is very important!

Of this heaven and earth age:

God allows death and suffering in this age of the flesh because He must do so...may sound crazy but it is true...and this seems to be missed by all but a few in the faith...

God gave up His total dominion over all things that He had created by giving dominion over the earth, in this flesh age, to mankind way back in Genesis...

Genesis 1:26; *And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion (over the earth only: Webster's Dictionary: dominion - sovereignty, rule) over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Do you know that the words 'sovereign' and 'sovereignty' are not found anywhere in the bible?

And, that every reference to the 'dominion' of God the Father after this covenant refers to His 'dominion' in Heaven...not on earth? Both of these statements are true...check it out.

This covenant of Genesis 1:26 was made with mankind before Adam and Eve partook of sin in the Garden of Eden...Genesis 3:1-21...and were therefore driven out...bringing sin and evil (the spirit of Satan) with them into the rest of the world which mankind already had dominion over.

Even though this had happened God could not break His covenant with mankind...
otherwise...it would make Him a liar...a breaker of a covenant...

Being our God who hates all liars...He will not...and even can not...tell a lie which would be against His very nature as God...

Now, the dominion of this age is shared between mankind and Satan...with God intervening only when it is His will to do so...and it is not our right to question when or why...

Although, He does give us a way to influence His decision to intervene by asking that His will be done through our prayers/petitions presented to Him in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ...

We can see examples of the dominion of Satan...​

2 Corinthians 4:3-4; *But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: *In whom the god (note the small "g" - meaning it is Satan not God) of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.​

Ephesians 6:11-12; *Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. *For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. ​

The evil doers of mankind and the Father of all lies...who is a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour...have caused the evil on earth to become so prevalent...and God could not then and will not stop it now because of this covenant He made with us when He created us in the flesh...​

Until, He no longer holds Himself obligated to this covenant that has allowed Satan and evil doers to cause death and suffering to fall upon even those who have been faithful to Him...

And, we are no longer in the flesh...in this flesh age...as we were when He made the covenant with mankind...​

Because His Son Jesus Christ returns to take us out of this flesh age into the next spiritual age that lasts forever and ever...

​

DO NOT BLAME GOD
any longer...for now you should understand!​

I will end with this:
In the NKJV because it is easier understood...​

Matthew 13:18; *"Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

13:19; *"When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

13:20; *"But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

13:21; *"yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

13:22; *"Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

13:23; *"But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

May we all pray to God that we receive seed on good ground...that we will not ever offend Him by blaming Him for creating evil and for the deeds done on earth through the evil doers of mankind and the ungodly intent of the devil...

peace and love...God Bless

 

[Hismessenger]

There isn't one person who can refute this scripture for no one can find anything apart from God which the word ALL does not entail.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Is not evil included in principalities and powers.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

It has been said that God did not create the darkness. But the spirit is truth and in the second verse of Genesis we have the answer in the word of God;

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Many will say this doesn't mean what it says but look further into the chapter. This is not the light that was created in the forth day. Then God separated the light from the darkness.

Here in this verse we have the creation of darkness when before this there was only God in which there is no DARKNESS. Darkness of which this speaks is to be devoid of light/ understanding.

When God created the light, He gave to all the creation the ability to recognize him as God. Darkness upon the face of the deep is in relation to
the depth of mankind and it's coming fall from grace.

Nevertheless, it can't be denied again that God is the creator of darkness and it falls within His purpose. It is in the creative process and is not something which is apart from the creation. That should be perfectly clear.

hismessenger

 

[martymonster]

Exactly right Hismessenger.

God creates darkness so that He can call light out of it, just like He creates wheat with a husk on it.
You could say that darkness is the husk of light.

 

[James-49]

Hi,

I came across this forum and reading this thread left me having to register and post my thoughts. The arguement is presented that God created ALL things which means He then created evil because it exists. That presupposes then that all things that exist are an origin, with none being a consequence or process.
That point aside, it then follows that God, our God, and my God created:
adultery
murder
rape
pornography
child molestation
... the list goes on.

Without philisophical debates or Scripture quotations, as only a person with God given reasoning ability: Does that make sense?

That's not the God who saved me, and it's a terrible insult to say He is.