GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[cksilas]

Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.

With these great attributes of God, its hard to imagine how evil ever came to be, that is as we know it to be. Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error. We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker! Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer. (rebellion is no doubt an imperfection) Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible! Even men never quarrel with their tools! We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future. U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way! According to an Omniscient God FREE WILL doesn't exist.

So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan. God designed both good and evil, he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.

My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.

This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....

And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him

 

[jja1981]

will if GOD created evil why did he cast the devil away from the kingdom of heaven!!!hello do you read your bible and you said it again yourself gave the answer.

that the devil indeed tested the good but it never worked as they went against evil and the power of good always gets the better of evil!!!

if you read revaltions the NT you would indeed know that he will cast and put an end of satans evil once and for all!!!

the fact now is when?and also when the coming of the son of man jesus christ comes the sheep will be one side the good and the goat evil turned away and there will only be day and no night how cool

what a thought i hate darkness so i am obvious elite from evil!!!

jja

 

[cksilas]

jja, you havent thought about this carefully..take your time and try to analize this, where did that 'evil thought' came from? From nowhere like a spritual big bang or something?
Think about free will, you actually implying that satan had a free will. But you do not consider the predestination and omniscience of God. As we know God, he created everything and knows everything perfectly well. He knows the future as vividly as he knows the past. We ussually sing every now and then that everything happens at Gods will, or when something bad happens we say it was God's will but we never take time to think deeply about that 'God will.' We accually mean that everything that happens whether good or evil, happens as God had planned it to be, and I guess we are right. And mark this, we dont have a choice we cant think otherwise about God. If the things that happen 'suprises' him, then he isn't omnient which means he is not God. So everything happens either per Gods will or by Gods will!

 

[Strong in Him]

Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.

He was there before the beginning actually.
Genesis talks of our beginning, not God's.

Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error.

Everything that God created was good, or very good, including Lucifer (Satan) who was once an angel of light. God did not create imperfections and does not make mistakes. But he gave free will to mankind, and must have done so for the angels too, or Satan could not have chosen to rebel against him. Which he did. He wanted to be greater than Almighty God and led a rebellion against him. Obviously he didn't win (a created being fighting against its creator,) and so he could not be allowed to remain in heaven. As the devil could not beat God, he decided to try to turn his creation against him.

It was possible for him to do this, because God gave us freewill. Free will means "you choose". God created men and women, gave us life, a body, a mind, a soul, gifts, desires etc, but did not demand that we use all these for him, or to worship him. Our minds and wills did not arrive pre-programmed; if they had, no problem. We'd worship God bcause we didn't know any different; because God was pulling our strings and making us praise him. There would have been no sin, no OT law and sacrifices, no Jesus, no sickness or death. Everyone would live for ever, because sickness and death came into this world when sin did.

We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker!

GOD creature? Do you mean GOOD creature? The devil never was God, he was an angel of light, he was created by God. He did rebel against his maker because he was given a choice.

Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer.

He didn't turn out to be imperfect - like "here's one I made earlier to see if it would come out right". The devil was good at one point, like all God's creation. He CHOSE to try and see if he could become greater or more powerful than God. He wasn't satisfied with who he was - he wanted the top job!

Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible!

Exactly, which is why I don't believe it happened, or even could have happened, that way.

We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future.

Right again! He knew we would sin, he knew the world would become evil, rotten, rebellious and cause him a lot of heartache. But he also knew that he was going to send Jesus to become a sacrifice and take all our sin upon himself. That is why Peter calls him "the Lamb who was chosen from the creation of the world." (1 Peter 1:20)
God knew that all this would happen if he gave us free will- as you say, nothing surprises him, he knows the future. Neverthless he went ahead and gave us free will, because he wanted us to love, serve and worship him because we chose to, not because we had to.

U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way!

None of us can impress God by anything we do. He is the creator we are the created. He is perfect, we are not. We cannot do anything to earn our salvation, get back into his good books give ourselves eternal life or go to heaven.
He loves us, and did not wait for us to become good enough before he died for us; that was his Grace, not our achievement. And as our Father, I believe he can be pleased with us and proud of us, but we can do nothing to impress him.

My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.

Yes but just because in those days the writers believed that everything - good and evil - came from God, it doesn't mean it did. That was how they understood it. Because otherwise you are saying that God who is love, light, Holy, pure, truth etc etc, could think up and then create something (the devil) which was evil and totally wicked. I read recently that all things are created twice - first they are conceived in the minds of their creators, then they are actually created and materialise. This means that a pure and Holy God who IS love, would have to dream up hatred, wickedness, evil and do on and then put all those things into one being - the devil. No way Jose!

God can use Satan to fulfil his wishes. Look at the cross, was it something that men decided to do, prompted by the devil and nothing to do with God at all; or was it something that God always knew would happen, planned would happen and prophesied throughout the OT, at Jesus' birth and throughout his life that it would happen? Of course Satan wanted to kill the Son of God. What an achievement that would have been, and what a trgedy for us. But it wasn't a tragedy, God knew it was going to happen and that he would raise him from the dead. He wanted this to happen because the cross was how Satan has been defeated.

This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....

No, God created everything good. Even snakes and scorpions were probably harmless once. Creation started to go bad, decay and die at the time that in entered the world. Adam was given a job by God, in Genesis, to look after the garden, the creation. He had even been told to name all the animals. When Adam messed up, the creation was messed up too.

And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him

I thought you've just been arguing that God created evil? In any case, he loves us so much that he could not just let us die in our sin and spend eternity without him and without knowing him, however much we deserved it. Evil was not his will or his design, but he still rescued us from it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Didn't the Greek's ascribe some of those attributes to God, like omnicience?

There is a tenuous connection between the one aka Lucifer, and Satan the devil. Perhaps God changed Lucifer to "adversary" because he became just that. Why not an alter(ed) ego to go with it.

The reason Lucifer sought equality with God, and grasped at that equality, is that he believed he had a right to it because of his special relationship with God. It was only after God saw what had happened to his kingdom that he 'deemed' the act 'sin'. Lucifer had 'fallen short' of what was expected of him, his very purpose for being.

And that is where 'sin' came from.

owg

 

[Hismessenger]

I have a snag to throw into this discussion which is nothing but the truth of it.

Here it is

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Pay special attention to this truth for what you think doesn't change it one iota.

It says that all things were created by Him, including principalities and powers. This includes the heavens and the earth. It says that they were all created, FOR HIM. As was said Everything that He made was very good. Very Good for it's purpose whether it be good or evil. It was made for him with His purpose in mind.

Nothing can consist in the creation without the divine inference of God.

These verses prove without a doubt that God created evil for His purpose.


The definition of Consist,

1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
2) to place
b) to make firm, fix establish
1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
c) to set or place in a balance
1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2) to stand
a) to stand by or near
1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
a) of the foundation of a building
b) to stand
1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
2) to be of a steadfast mind
3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

I have a snag to throw into this discussion which is nothing but the truth of it.

Here it is

Pay special attention to this truth for what you think doesn't change it one iota.

It says that all things were created by Him, including principalities and powers. This includes the heavens and the earth. It says that they were all created, FOR HIM. As was said Everything that He made was very good. Very Good for it's purpose whether it be good or evil. It was made for him with His purpose in mind.

Nothing can consist in the creation without the divine inference of God.

These verses prove without a doubt that God created evil for His purpose.

It doesn't prove anything of the sort.
At some point in his creation, God created the angels - his messengers. They were ALL good and were made by him and for him. Even Lucifer (another name for Satan).
Lucfer tried to start a rebellion against God, he wanted to overthrow him and become more powerful than him. He persuaded many angels to join him in this plan. They failed - obviously, no one is greater than God - and were all thrown out of heaven. At that point, before man was created, there were fallen angels on the earth. Satan and his angels have been opposing God ever since and trying to turn his creation (us) against him.

God did not create evil. He would have to have been a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to have done so, and most certainly not a God of love, holiness and purity.

Like I said, think about it; could the One who hates sin have creted sin? Can love conceive of and create hatred? Could a perfect, loving, merciful, gracious, compassionate God choose to make something that was completely the opposite and alien to his nature?

If Jesus said that we can tell a tree by its fruits, and a fig tree cannot bear thorns, don't you think this applies to God as well? Because why would he ask us to do something which he was incapable of doing himself?

 

[Hismessenger]

Strong in Him.

So you know the mind of God and what He is doing with His creation?

I said to you it matters not what you think, the word of God is true or do you not believe his word being strong in yourself?

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Created Principalities and powers, For Him. It is all about the glory of God, not man for this is what Christ did with His ministry, Glorify the Father as we are given to do also.


hismessenger

 

[razzelflabben]

admittedly, I haven't read the entire post, but I have a related question and since I have seen many posts about this topic, it's time to ask....how does one create sin? I mean isn't that like creating a breath, I mean, it is a natural process, we can imagine creating lungs an air, but a breath is much different. Breath is the result of a natural process, how can I create breath? It just exists as the result of things that were created. Isn't sin a similar idea?

 

[Strong in Him]

Strong in Him.

So you know the mind of God and what He is doing with His creation?

I know that God is love; that he is also light, truth, pure, holy, merciful etc etc.

I don't believe that someone who hates sin, could himself have created sin. I don't believe that someone who is perfectly holy could plan and create evil, wickedness, pain and suffering.

I said to you it matters not what you think, the word of God is true or do you not believe his word being strong in yourself?

I believe his word, you clearly don't believe, or accept, my explanation - which was not made up from my own head, it's all Scriptural.
Do you believe the Scripture which says that good trees cannot bear bad fruit, nor bad tees, good? (Matt 7:16-20).
This is true of God too. He created us, loves us, sent his Son to die for us, has made us his children and given us every spiritual blessing in Christ (Eph 1:3). We did not deserve this, he did not have to do it - it was his pleasure and will to do it. How could a God who delights to bless and save fallible human beings like us, have possibly created the evil and sin that would only be forgiven and overcome by the death of his Son?

 

[Strong in Him]

Created Principalities and powers, For Him.

Yes he created them for him, but everything that God created was good. He is perfect, how could he do otherwise?
It was not that he deliberately made anything evil, but he gave us, and obviously the angels too, freewill. Lucifer chose to try to overthrow God. Lucifer corrupted the other angels and some of the principalities and powers. They were created good, they became corrupt.

If God created evil - then he is not good, and not love. Which means the Scriptures are wrong because they say he is. If God is not who he has revealed himself to be, how do we know if we can trust him to help, save, guide and heal us and do what he has said he will do?

 

[Hismessenger]

You miss the point. Evil is a created thing which only has to do with the plan of God. It is not a part of God other than a direction he has set forth for some things in His creation.

Yes everything that He created was good, good for the purpose he created it for. Purpose came first, then the creation to fulfill that purpose. How do we know we can trust Him you ask, because he is the author of your faith and when you submit to His
will, then trust becomes a non factor. We walk by faith trusting that He who created us knows what he is doing even when we perceive it to be something that we understand is evil, it still has purpose FOR HIM.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

The other part which you fail to see is that If God didn't create it as part of His plan, then He didn't know everything which we know to be impossible for He has and never will be caught unawares of what Is happening in His creation since He planned it all, and I do mean all. Tell me what there is that isn't encompassed in the word all.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

The other part which you fail to see is that If God didn't create it as part of His plan, then He didn't know everything

How so? God did not create evil, but he gave both men and angels the ability to choose to reject him if they wished. They did wish; they chose to disobey God's command and go their own way, so sin entered the world. God didn't create the sin or disobedience, but he did make it possible for it to happen.

My own belief is that God created man and gave us the choice to reject him. He knew what would happen - as you say, he knows everything, nothing takes him by surprise. He knew that the fall would happen before it did. Peter later referred to Jesus as the lamb who was chosen before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20). God knew even before he created Adam and Eve that they would disobey him and mankind would need a Saviour, so he appointed one.
When the serpent was cursed by God after the fall, God said that it would be the seed of a woman that would bruise his head. This was fulfilled on the cross when Jesus overcame sin and death and broke the power of the devil.

It's difficult to say with certainty why God did this - why create when he knew the rejection and heartache that he would receive? I think it was because God wanted people who would choose to love, worship and serve him, rather than puppets who served him perfectly and said "praise the Lord" when you pulled a string because they had no other choice. Which of us wants someone to love us only because they have been made/bribed to do so?

So I still don't believe that God created evil. But he made the decision to let us choose. And he must have given the angels that same choice too; otherwise Lucifer, who was an angel of light, God's messenger and created good, could not possibly have wanted God's power for himself and tried to overthrow him.

That's not eay to understand, and may be wrong - I wasn't there and don't claim to know everything. But I cannot believe that God who created everything and declared it to be good, sitting back and saying, "well, that's going to be a bit boring now. I think I had better create evil and suffering to make it a bit more interesting. In a few years time I can flood the earth and start again, because the evil will have got out of control, and in a couple of thousand years I'll go down to earth myself and die a painful death, to put an end to the evil and death which I decided to create."

Apart from the fact that a holy God who cannot tolerate sin and required sinners to make sacrifices before they could approach him, could not have created something which is so opposite, alien and intolerable to him; he'd have had to have been a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to do all that, not a God of love.

 

[Hismessenger]

God knew even before he created Adam and Eve that they would disobey him and mankind would need a Saviour, so he appointed one.

Yes God knew for He had already ordained Christ to bring glory to himself through the salvation of man. Can you not fathom this reality. They had to fall as part of His purpose for Christ. They didn't choose to fall, they fell by design or else there would have been no need for Christ. They had to choose the way they did because God had ordained it to be for His purpose.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes God knew for He had already ordained Christ to bring glory to himself through the salvation of man.

God wouldn't have appointed a Saviour if he hadn't known that we would need one.

He could have created us all as puppets - given us no choice at all about loving him. He gave us free will. Free will means a free choice. If God had somehow engineered that choice so that we would sin and need rescuing, that would not be a free choice. He might as well have created us puppets and saved himself a lot of bother.

They had to fall as part of His purpose for Christ. They didn't choose to fall, they fell by design or else there would have been no need for Christ. They had to choose the way they did because God had ordained it to be for His purpose.

That makes it sound as though God appointed Jesus to die on the cross for our salvation, then created mankind and said, "I already have a Saviour lined up, so they have to sin. I'd better make sure they do sin, because otherwise I won't get to cause myself lots of pain and hassle or send my dear Son to earth to be rejected."

That's ridiculous. If God appointed Jesus as a Saviour, he did so because he was well aware that we would sin and therefore need one. He gave us free will. WE might have said, "oh well there was a chance then that Adam mightn't have sinned". There WAS; that's what freewill means - a choice - but God still knew what choice we would make.
If Adam hadn't sinned after all, and God had already appointed a Saviour, that would have meant either that God didn't know everything; he'd worried about something that was never going to happen, or that one of Adam's descendents would have sinned.

Unless you're trying to say that the only way we could really know God's love and goodness was to be made to experience pain, suffering, spiritual death, fear, confusion, and then when Jesus came along to rescue us from this, we'd all be extremely grateful to God for saving us from the sin which he had decided in the first place that we had to commit, so he could show how great he was by rescuing us.

Sounds like a Muchaussan's-by-proxy type of God.

 

[Hismessenger]

If Adam hadn't sinned after all, and God had already appointed a Saviour, that would have meant either that God didn't know everything; he'd worried about something that was never going to happen, or that one of Adam's descendents would have sinned.

Thats the point exactly. Christ was chosen for His purpose before mankind was even created to have what you believe is free will. We had no will when He was ordained so God had planned for the fall and then salvation for Him,His Glory.
Just as you said, we would be grateful for this salvation and give God all the glory for it. This is what the word says that God desires. He said that He would not share His glory with anyone.

hismessenger

 

[Strong in Him]

Thats the point exactly. Christ was chosen for His purpose before mankind was even created to have what you believe is free will. We had no will when He was ordained so God had planned for the fall and then salvation for Him,His Glory.
Just as you said, we would be grateful for this salvation and give God all the glory for it. This is what the word says that God desires. He said that He would not share His glory with anyone.

God had glory before the world began, he had angels who served him and had glory, honour, majesty etc. God had glory after he created Adam and Eve and said that it was good. Adam and Eve existed for a while in a world with no sin. It's true that Lucifer had rebelled against God and was on the earth, but Adam and Eve had not disobeyed their creator. God had glory then. He gave Adam the task of naming the animals and looking after the earth. Adam and Eve had a perfect relationship with their creator.

God did not have to MAKE them sin so that they would appreciate him, they did that already. God did not MAKE people sin so that he could get praise for rescuing them - that would be almost sick. What about in the days of Noah when sin was so wisespread that God said he was sorry he had ever made mankind and sent the flood? What chance did those people have to be grateful for God's salvation - they died? And it wasn't all for Noah's benefit either, he was already a God fearing man.
Why, throughout the entire OT, would God have been angry with people for not keeping his covenant and sinning, if he knew that he had made them to sin? That they had no choice and the existence of sin in the world was all his fault? These people had only done what God made them do - so why would he have sent plagues, wars and allowed some of them to die.

Why would Jesus have come to rescue us from what God had created us to do and MADE us do?
(To be continued after church.)

 

[Hismessenger]

The angels were created as part of the creation just like heaven and hell. Yes God had Glory but we are created to worship him and to praise Him to his glory .

hismessenger