GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Hismessenger]

"Choose this day whom you will serve"

And what does that passage mean to you. If you are led by the spirit, he will give you his understanding not someone who has not the understanding.

There is a reason why the creature was made subject to vanity and you can know that as well for yourself. What does it mean,
1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness
2) perverseness, depravity
3) frailty, want of vigour

Now what reason would there be for the creature to be devoid of truth, perverse, depraved and frail. It is there for all to see if you listen to the spirit and put away that Peter mentality, Not I, master, I would never eat of an unclean thing.

hismessenger

 

[OzSpen]

And what does that passage mean to you.
hismessenger

Please quit your responding with the postmodern, reader-response heresy. Kevin Vanhoozer has exposed and critiqued your postmodernism in, Is there a meaning in this text?

What a passage means to me is my invention and that is NOT what the biblical text states. The intention of the original author is what the text MEANS.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[ivebeenshown]

The characters in a movie supposedly have free will, yet they complete the script as written even as they exercise the free will given to them by the author of the script.

...except God did not author our decisions.

For God to be eternally omniscient, he must have known our every action from eternal past.

For God to have known our every action from eternal past, there never could have been a time where God had not yet decided what our decisions would be.

Since there could not have been a time where God had not yet decided what our decisions would be, God never could have decided what our decisions would be.

There has to be ultimate control of every aspect of the creation or else he is not sovereign.

False.

 

[Hismessenger]

So what you are saying is that God is not the author of the creation and everything which is in it, knowing the end from the beginning, before he ever made anything manifest. He didn't know what Christ would do and therefore the creation is left to it's own devises for him to adjust to when he planned every purpose for his glory. Do you really believe that anything happens in this creation without his sustaining it? Get real and smell the roses. Satan planted this lie of choice and that is the blindness of too many religious people who say what God has not done. Go read the last chapters of Job and try and get some real understanding. In all thy getting, get understanding that God is God and does whatever it takes for His glory. I know you won't understand this for leaning to your own understanding. God tells of many things which he has done that Job or us couldn't even imagine.

hismessenger

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

So what you are saying is that God is not the author of the creation and everything which is in it, knowing the end from the beginning, before he ever made anything manifest. He didn't know what Christ would do and therefore the creation is left to it's own devises for him to adjust to when he planned every purpose for his glory. Do you really believe that anything happens in this creation without his sustaining it? Get real and smell the roses. Satan planted this lie of choice and that is the blindness of too many religious people who say what God has not done. Go read the last chapters of Job and try and get some real understanding. In all thy getting, get understanding that God is God and does whatever it takes for His glory. I know you won't understand this for leaning to your own understanding. God tells of many things which he has done that Job or us couldn't even imagine.

hismessenger

Amen brother! The guy's 21 years old, he hasn't even lived long enough to gain a broad perspective on "natural" life, let alone the thing's of the Spirit! People who exalt their "own" freewill have yet to be humbled By the Spirit of Almighty GOD with a personal REVELATION OF JUST WHO GOD IS,and who he is also, and Brought to their knee's as dead rotten sinner who's has a desperate, and ETERNAL EVERLASTING NEED FOR A "REAL SINNER'S SAVIOUR"! They have yet to be Crucified In Christ,and had their "freewill's" nailed as dead as a door-nob to that tree! "So that this body of sin" which we inherited from Adam " might be destroyed" ! That's what GOD Think's about the "freewill" slaves of Adam! They must be destroyed! Period...They've yet to learn as Paul, and say: Romans 7:18 (KJV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:24-25 (KJV)Ro 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 6:6 (KJV) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[James-49]

Hi,

This is become quite disturbing.

Rom 11:33 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

hismessenger, your posts appear to claim that you have indeed searched His judgments, and His ways you have indeed found out. You claim that God did create evil, and you want others to accept that.
What's disturbing in all this is that's the same mindset from which cults arise.
You claim freewill is a lie, but you're actually limiting your understanding of God by placing Him within your constraints.
-------------------------------
If God created evil, then God also created ham sandwiches. However, as I understand it God created wheat and pigs, and His creation (man) then devised the ham sandwich from those created elements. And God created all things good, from which His creation (man et al) devised perverse (evil) uses from those created elements.

And freewill is not an either/or concept unless God Himself is limited within the constraints of linear time. Did God determine at the creation that I would wear the blue shirt this very day rather than the brown one? Or did He in fact witness that I chose to wear the blue shirt and incorporated that within His plan from the very beginning?
I have heard it said that if time was represented as a straight line drawn, then God is the paper on which that line is drawn. Your god (deliberate lowercase g) is much smaller than mine.
-------------------------------
SeraphimsCherub, you speak of being humbled by the Spirit of the Lord then compare it as a moral distinction which humbles - but it's an everything distinction that humbles. How sinful we are, yes, but also how little we know, how powerless we are, how ineffectual we are...
You pass judgment as one who knows, and that reveals your lack of humbling experience under God's hand.
You've both made
personal slights: "Get real and smell the roses", "try and get some real understanding", "The guy's 21 years old, he hasn't even lived long enough to gain a broad perspective on "natural" life, let alone the thing's of the Spirit"
.. but when I read Job it's Satan himself who makes such slights.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

You've both made personal slights: "Get real and smell the roses", "try and get some real understanding", "The guy's 21 years old, he
hasn't even lived long enough to gain a broad perspective on "natural" life, let alone the thing's of the Spirit"
.. but when I read Job it's Satan himself who makes such slights.


Go back and read it. You mixed some of his qoutes with mine. i was including myself in GOD'S Judgment against me as a wretched sinner through, and through every single day, besides the Grace of GOD Operating in my new man By His Spirit Created In The Image of Christ, which Is continually Waring against the "will" of my old man, whether i am aware of the fact of this reality or not, But GOD Spirit within me is always bring the "motion's" of those sin's which are always stiring around "in the body of this death" that they may be properly disposed of through "the Body, and Blood of Christ", "ONLY the Son OF Man hath power on earth to forgive and kill sin dead with out, and dead within! But i realize that i'm still a prideful wretch, and when we're in a "debate" over GOD, most often provoketh unto pride, by the mere fact of ones particular perception's of how he "think's", and "see's" GOD! There's only ONE GOD! But the "sad Reality" is that there are 2 billion different personal christian's perceptions of Him all accruing simultaneously right (((NOW)))!

 

[abysmul]

.... Created.... or allowed?

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Yes and i agree with you James 49, in that great "profound" fact of "our being powerless"! Which has become one of the greatest Graces that GOD first taught me after i was already born again and SAVED, through AA, and NA! The sad thing is that i learned more about GOD in one meeting than ever did in a life time of being surrounded by self-righteous hypocrites at church! The 12 steps originated from the Bible. 12 tribes of Israel, 12 Apostles, and 12 spiritual step's. 12 numbers on the clock of time! At yet, i am also aware of the fact that i also am "a self- righteous" hypocrite many more times before, and still many more times now, and later on shall i through the Grace of God be humbled to realize it.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

.... Created.... or allowed?

Created or allowed what? my brother.

 

[abysmul]

Created or allowed what? my brother.

Sorry my bad for jumping in late.

The original post started: GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

I was simply pondering: created evil, or allowed evil?

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

I think GOD may have created the working's of the mechanic's so to say, of how the destroying element's work in a realm that would be the be "named evil" and "sin" as the "natural" consequences that would follow His Righteous Judgment against any disobedience that He commanded. How about that?

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

I've been reading the Balaam story in the book of Numbers! And The depth of the analogies that one can draw from it as to concerning good, and evil,is endless! And also as to GOD'S Right to curse whom soever HE WILL, and GOD'S Right To Imput HIS OWN RIGHTEOUS TO WHOM SOEVER HE WILL'S ALSO! GOD can Righteously Command Satan to curse anyone who sin's against His Law! But Satan hath absolutely no power whatsover to lay any charge against ALL OF GOD'S Chosen People both Jew, and Gentile In Christ before the foundation of the world! All those whom, though their sin's be as high as the heaven's! He Himself bore His own Righteous Judgment For our ALL of our sin's Against Himself,! Therefore since He put our sins to death forever in His Own Body! When He Look's Upon us He See's Himself-Christ In Us The Hope of Glory, and beholdeth, and Seeth not no iniquity in us! And that's another reason Satan hates us. Because GOD torment's him by commanding him to be used to bless us, though he desire with all his evil heart to curse us! If Satan the great fallen cherub can not go past any command or word that GOD so put's within his mouth, who are we little nat's to think that we can??

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Numbers 24:13 (KJV) If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the commandment of the LORD, to do either good or bad of mine own mind; but what the LORD saith, that will I speak?

 

[OzSpen]

James-49,

As you have rightly pointed out, the doctrine of God creating evil is not faithful to the biblical text. It is a teaching of heretical Gnosticism. See the Gnostic support for this in "Why did God create evil?" This website acknowledges that it is Gnosticism. Gnostic teachings were refuted over and over, not only by the NT, but also by the apologists of the early Christian centuries.

God creating evil, that is being promoted by some on this thread, is an heretical doctrine.

I refer you to Wayne Jackson's brief refutation of this this heretical Gnostic doctrine by Apologetics Press, "Does God 'create' evil?" Those who want to use Isaiah 45:7 KJV to promote God creating evil, do not understand the meaning of the Hebrew ra in context. The correct translation is as with the ESV, "I make well-being and create calamity. I am the Lord who does all these things".

In Christ, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So what you are saying is that God is not the author of the creation and everything which is in it, knowing the end from the beginning, before he ever made anything manifest. He didn't know what Christ would do and therefore the creation is left to it's own devises for him to adjust to when he planned every purpose for his glory. Do you really believe that anything happens in this creation without his sustaining it? Get real and smell the roses. Satan planted this lie of choice and that is the blindness of too many religious people who say what God has not done. Go read the last chapters of Job and try and get some real understanding. In all thy getting, get understanding that God is God and does whatever it takes for His glory. I know you won't understand this for leaning to your own understanding. God tells of many things which he has done that Job or us couldn't even imagine.

hismessenger

Would you please be courteous and address the person to whom you are making this response? Otherwise, I find it difficult to know to whom you are speaking.

"Choose this day whom you will serve" is not the lie of the devil but straight from the Lord God Almighty. It is you who is inventing another meaning.

Oz

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Well i'm not saying that GOD Created evil! But He Knew that it come about in the mind of another, which He Saw fit to be a major role player in this Great & Almighty Story Of His Called:Life! Which evil coming about of it's own accord and allowed to do whatever with no GOOD REASON or PURPOSE OF FOR IT'S EXISTANCE AND GOD BEING ABOVE IT AND TOTALLY OUTSIDE OF IT;YET AT THE SAME TIME COMPLETELY IN CONTROL OF IT TO BRING IT TO A PROPER GOOD END! Would not be GOOD; But the Fact still remains That THE ALL LOVING ALL GOOD GOD, HAS ALLOWED EVIL TO BE; WHICH IN A SENSE IS GOOD, BECAUSE THE ALL KNOWING ALL POWER GOD SAW FIT THAT IT SHOULD COME TO PASS, Which it did in Satan, and spread from him too the other angels whom he decieved, and then to Adam, and the rest is History! Which Over All Has To be GOOD, even though GOD Allow's evil to exist for a "short time" within it!

 

[Hismessenger]

A simple question. In any story, if there are no foes to fight, how is glory made manifest to the victor? Think about that before you answer.

hismessenger

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

well regardless of what good and evil actually is, it all add's up to a whole hell of a lot of insanity within our little mind's during this life! lol...

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Psalms 139:8 (KJV) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
It's GOD Who Suffers the hell of conscious being to any given soul whom He has given to exist within the horrible "reality" of that "state" of conscious being which exist's somewhere in the Eternal Reality and Being Of GOD! For it is not possible that there can be any conscious reality or state of being which can exist outside of THE ETERNAL REALITY OF ALMIGHTY GOD'S OMNIPRESENT-OMNIPOTENT-OMNISCIENT CONSCIOUS STATE OF HIS ETERNAL BEING!