GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Ishraqiyun]

The god of this world, the lord of forces, created evil. The Father of Christ didn't.

 

[OzSpen]

Please see below. Oz

 

[OzSpen]

James,

Hi,

I came across this forum and reading this thread left me having to register and post my thoughts. The arguement is presented that God created ALL things which means He then created evil because it exists. That presupposes then that all things that exist are an origin, with none being a consequence or process.
That point aside, it then follows that God, our God, and my God created:
adultery
murder
rape
pornography
child molestation
... the list goes on.

Without philisophical debates or Scripture quotations, as only a person with God given reasoning ability: Does that make sense?

That's not the God who saved me, and it's a terrible insult to say He is.

Welcome to the Forum. I'm pleased that you have joined us to raise this critical perspective.

Perhaps it will be helpful to examine Isa. 45:7 to try to gain some light on this challenging topic.

The KJV translates as, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things”.

The ESV reads, “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things”.

According to the KJV, God creates good (light, peace) and evil (see also Jer. 18:11; Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But there are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God (e.g. 1 John 1:5). Hab. 1:13 states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil” (ESV). James 1:13 confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave us?

We know that God is morally perfect (see Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48). God cannot sin (Heb. 6:18). But there is more to the attributes of God, including his absolute justice that requires that sin be punished by Him. So, there will be judgment by God in this life and eternally (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11-15). So, in this life, when God executes justice we sometimes call this “evil” because from our human perspective, God seems to be committing evil against these people and nations. Were the Indonesian tsunami and the Joplin MO twister examples of God’s “evil” actions?

However, the Hebrew ra, evil/calamity in Isa 45:7, does not always mean moral evil. In the Isa 45 context, the ESV demonstrates that it should be translated as “calamity”, which is how the NKJV also translates it. The context supports this translation. So God is seen as the creator of “evil”, not in the moral sense directly, but as the one who brings judgment/calamity.

God can be seen indirectly as the author of moral evil, but only in the sense that he created moral human beings who had the power of free choice and it is this free choice by us that brought moral evil into the universe. We see the beginning of this in Genesis 3. God created moral beings who had the ability to perform moral evil – and they did. God created free human beings and it is they who made evil real.

God’s making human beings with the possibility of free choice is a good thing. Thus, we can say that God created only good things and one of those good things was free choice. Moral, but free, human beings, produced the evil in our world. Yes, God made the moral universe and indirectly created the possibility of evil in our universe. So, evil is permitted by God, but God does not produce or promote this evil. We know that ultimately a greater good is coming (see Gen. 50:20; Rev. 21-22).

I have been helped in providing the above information by Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe 1992. When Critics Ask. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, pp. 271-272 (the new title is, The Big Book of Bible Difficulties). Geisler & Howe summarise:

GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL​

• In the sense of sin​
• Moral evil​
• Perversity​
• Directly​
• Actuality of evil​

GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL​

• In the sense of calamity
• Non-moral evil
• Plagues
• Indirectly
• Possibility of evil

Sincerely in Christ, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Michael,

Neither did Jesus.

you might want to read your bible again, everything i referred to is in there.

I wrote:

I note that you do not provide biblical references to support your points.

You are not Jesus.

You are writing on a Forum to human beings who have various perspectives and your referencing your statements is necessary. Otherwise they are nothing more than your assertions.

Oz

 

[Rochester]

Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.

With these great attributes of God, its hard to imagine how evil ever came to be, that is as we know it to be. Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error. We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker! Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer. (rebellion is no doubt an imperfection) Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible! Even men never quarrel with their tools! We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future. U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way! According to an Omniscient God FREE WILL doesn't exist.

So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan. God designed both good and evil, he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.

My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.

This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....

And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him

I think it is an error to not charge God with Creating evil. We were knit together in the womb by God and when we exited the womb we were instantly under the curse of God due to original sin. Follow the logic the yarn God used contained original sin or else where did sin originate?

I think it is possible the doctrine of sin has not been explained adequately. I'm still trying to figure it out too.

Also the prophet Isaiah 45 states quite clearly that God creates evil:
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This should not be a problem for anyone but those who see only half the picture. Evil in this context is to be understood as war as it is juxtaposed with its opposite which is peace. Jesus warned us war was on the way and that it would be hard on us.

That is why the preaching of the gospel is so important so when these things happen people can have hope.

I find many people who are Christians who are worried and fearful of things, but Jesus said to find hope in the awful things coming upon the earth.

The early Christians who went willingly to the beasts and torture understood the gospel in a way that enabled them to do so cheerefully and hopefully.

 

[Lamb's Wife]

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(1Co 15:21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

No better answer exists than this one

My God created righteousness by overcoming the evil created by man.

 

[Hismessenger]

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
​

Is not evil included in principalities and powers.

So if God created the principalities and powers of which evil is one, why is it that so many cannot recognize the fact that they operate at his discretion.

Did not Satan come to ask permission of God to inflict Job. Why is there so much blindness to the truth and trying to limit God to what you believe.

hismessenger

 

[LanceCohen]

I think the greater wisdom is to get over this fact that God created evil, and go on to ask why, eg why Satan? Why put the tempter in the Garden of Eden? etc etc

Or else we are just running continuous circles at the starting point, never moving and ever remaining fools.

We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. [Heb 5:11]

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

This is a question i purposed in a thread i started on another site some few month's back:

Did GOD Create The Great Force That We Call Evil To Be Against His Own Good As A Powerful Stimulus To Provoke ,and Exercise The Great Almighty Power of His Own Will, In Complete, Soverieign, Control - With Perfect Justice - In His Perfect Judgment Against It(Evil) To Bring It(Evil),and all the things that come about because of it(Evil), Too His Perfectly Determined, and Proper Good End???

 

[Hismessenger]

In a word Yes. All to His glory!

hismessenger

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

In a word Yes. All to His glory!

hismessenger

Amen my brother!

 

[ivebeenshown]

God is un-created and eternal... and omniscient. Evil has existed throughout eternity as a concept in God's knowledge, but was only recently manifested by his creations. Had God created any being for the purpose of making evil manifest in actions, God is then responsible for evil, and not omnibenevolent. However, God created humankind with free will, the power to choose between good and evil... even as God has the power to choose between good and evil, yet he only chooses the good.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

God is un-created and eternal... and omniscient. Evil has existed throughout eternity as a concept in God's knowledge, but was only recently manifested by his creations. Had God created any being for the purpose of making evil manifest in actions, God is then responsible for evil, and not omnibenevolent. However, God created humankind with free will, the power to choose between good and evil... even as God has the power to choose between good and evil, yet he only chooses the good.

GOD did not "give" us freewill! Satan gave us that idea,and that we could be our "own god's" and lord,and master's of our "own" destinies according to our "own" pathetic "freewill's"! So after Adam plunged himself,and all of humanity who has come after him, into the "nature" of sin which is death,under the condemnation of death,and sentence thereof from the very first breath of air you ever draw! So have we been under the bondage, and slavery of that curse ever since! And Unless we are SAVED BY THE "(((WILL)))" OF A HIGHER POWER DUE TO HIS GRACE,AND NOT OUR OWN! SO SHALL WE REMAIN THE NATURAL SLAVES OF THAT FALL,AND "IN" THIS FALL! "FREE FALLING BEING'S WITH WILL'S THAT FALL JUST AS "FREELY",AND NATURAL AS THE ACORN'S THAT "FALL" FROM A TREE! Shalom...

 

[ivebeenshown]

GOD did not "give" us freewill! Satan gave us that idea,and that we could be our "own god's" and lord,and master's of our "own" destinies according to our "own" pathetic "freewill's"! So after Adam plunged himself,and all of humanity who has come after him, into the "nature" of sin which is death,under the condemnation of death,and sentence thereof from the very first breath of air you ever draw! So have we been under the bondage, and slavery of that curse ever since! And Unless we are SAVED BY THE "(((WILL)))" OF A HIGHER POWER DUE TO HIS GRACE,AND NOT OUR OWN! SO SHALL WE REMAIN THE NATURAL SLAVES OF THAT FALL,AND "IN" THIS FALL! "FREE FALLING BEING'S WITH WILL'S THAT FALL JUST AS "FREELY",AND NATURAL AS THE ACORN'S THAT "FALL" FROM A TREE! Shalom...

As I said -- if God did not give us free will, the ability to make decisions which affect our destiny, and instead created humankind intentionally to disobey him and manifest evil in action, then God is directly responsible for evil, and therefore not an omnibenevolent God.

But the God I worship is omnibenevolent: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three persons in one God, eternally good and not directly responsible for any morally evil acts.

 

[OzSpen]

I think the greater wisdom is to get over this fact that God created evil, and go on to ask why, eg why Satan? Why put the tempter in the Garden of Eden? etc etc

Or else we are just running continuous circles at the starting point, never moving and ever remaining fools.

Lance,

Your view and that promoted by some others in this thread that God created evil is a belief of Gnosticism. It was rejected in the early centuries of the Christian church as heretical because it contradicts the Scripture. See, "Did God create evil?"

The foundation for a biblical understanding of the origin of evil is in the risky gift of free will. Read the start of the story in Genesis 3. Or was the fall of Satan earlier?

Sincerely, Oz

 

[Hismessenger]

Then please explain knowing the end from the beginning, if we have free will. The characters in a movie supposedly have free will, yet they complete the script as written even as they exercise the free will given to them by the author of the script. There has to be ultimate control of every aspect of the creation or else he is not sovereign.

hismessenger

 

[OzSpen]

Then please explain knowing the end from the beginning, if we have free will. The characters in a movie supposedly have free will, yet they complete the script as written even as they exercise the free will given to them by the author of the script. There has to be ultimate control of every aspect of the creation or else he is not sovereign.

hismessenger

Hismessenger,

As Norman Geisler put it in his exposition of this subject, Christians are Chosen But Free. First Peter 1:1-2 speaks of those who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

You don't seem to see a harmony between free will / human responsibility and the foreknowledge of God. God's sovereignty and God's foreknowledge are attributes of the same Being - the Lord God Almighty.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[Hismessenger]

OzSpen,

Never mind what someone else has said, what does this passage mean to you?

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity not willingly , but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1909&t=KJV hope ,

It goes directly to the heart of this free will thing and gives and insight in to who has caused this to be.

Lastly how can there be foreknowledge of something which doesn't exist yet except in the mind of God. Is that foreknowledge or the finite mind placing God at our level. Looking at it as many do, then the Wright Brothers must have also had foreknowledge of the airplane before they built it. They had an idea but didn't know the outcome until they made it happen. God on the other hand simply put his word into action and spoke everything into existence. Not foreknowledge but direct application of what He willed to do in every aspect of this creation when it didn't even exist yet. That's called planning, not foreknowledge.

hismessenger

 

[OzSpen]

Hismessenger,

"Choose this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15) is one way that God defines free will. Your statement, "Never mind what someone else has said, what does this passage mean to you?" is an example of postmodern imposition on the text. The passage means what was meant by the original author and not what this passage means to me.

I can make application of a passage to my life and situation but the meaning of a passage is determined by the exegesis of what the original author intended. What a passage means to me is an example of postmodern heresy, reader-response heretical imposition.

Oz

OzSpen,

Never mind what someone else has said, what does this passage mean to you?

It goes directly to the heart of this free will thing and gives and insight in to who has caused this to be.

Lastly how can there be foreknowledge of something which doesn't exist yet except in the mind of God. Is that foreknowledge or the finite mind placing God at our level. Looking at it as many do, then the Wright Brothers must have also had foreknowledge of the airplane before they built it. They had an idea but didn't know the outcome until they made it happen. God on the other hand simply put his word into action and spoke everything into existence. Not foreknowledge but direct application of what He willed to do in every aspect of this creation when it didn't even exist yet. That's called planning, not foreknowledge.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

"Choose this day whom you will serve"

And what does that passage mean to you. If you are led by the spirit, he will give you his understanding not someone who has not the understanding.

There is a reason why the creature was made subject to vanity and you can know that as well for yourself. What does it mean,
1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness
2) perverseness, depravity
3) frailty, want of vigour

Now what reason would there be for the creature to be devoid of truth, perverse, depraved and frail. It is there for all to see if you listen to the spirit and put away that Peter mentality, Not I, master, I would never eat of an unclean thing.

hismessenger