GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Zeena]

I was going along with what you just said when all of a sudden this verse came to mind.

GEN 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Gen 4:7 LXX
If you offer correctly but do not divide correctly, have you not sinned? Be still; his recourse is to you, and you will rule over him.

Source

YLT
Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'

Just to give two options you seem not to have considered, as per source and translation, respectively.

So my question is, what do you think this verse is talking about?

I believe Wesley gave a choice of two very viable options in this regard;

4:7 If thou dost well, shalt thou not be accepted? - Either,
1. If thou hadst done well, as thy brother did, thou shouldest have been accepted as he was. God is no respecter of persons; so that if we come short of acceptance with him, the fault is wholly our own. This will justify God in the destruction of sinners, and will aggravate their ruin. There is not a damned sinner in hell, but if he had done well, as he might have done, had been a glorified saint in heaven. Every mouth will shortly be stopt with this. Or,
2. If now thou do well: if thou repent of thy sin, reform thy heart and life, and bring thy sacrifice in a better manner; thou shalt yet be accepted. See how early the gospel was preached, and the benefit of it here offered even to one of the chief of sinners. He sets before him death and a curse; but, if not well - Seeing thou didst not do well, not offer in faith, and in a right manner, sin lieth at the door - That is, sin only hinders thy acceptance. All this considered, Cain had no reason to he angry with his brother, but at himself only. Unto thee shall be his desire - He shall continue in respect to thee as an elder brother, and thou, as the first - born, shall rule over him as much as ever. God's acceptance of Abel's offering did not transfer the birth - right to him, (which Cain was jealous of) nor put upon him that dignity, and power, which is said to belong to it, Gen 49:3.

Source

But, then again, I'm no Wesleyan.. Though personally, I believe #2 is more fitting.

If something has "desire" wouldn't it have to have/be an entity???

Does Satan desire to sift you like wheat?
Who is the man of sin except the spirit of anti-christ?
The desire of such a demonic spirit is to have you, but not for good.

I post some questions here for reflection.. Only.
As I, too, ponder these things in my heart.

As for the definition of sin, as per defined by God through the Bible;

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Transgression of the Law is an action wrought by transgressors.

When you came to God through Christ, brother, did you repent of your sins, or the sins of sin in you?

Do you see how convoluted that sounds?

Can you name one instance where God has defined sin a being, ergo an entity, anywhere in Scripture?

I say, if you, as a born again Christian, are going to stick with a definition of sin as an entity (though not Biblically sound, imo), then you best be believing that 'sin, crouching at the door' is a demonic spirit. Otherwise, it's in you, and you must master it.

I just looked at Webster's and it said "a thing that has real and individual existence, in reality or in the mind."

But we know the whole world lieth under the evil one..

More ponderance, I hope.

~Hillsage~

God bless you!

Zeena,

So, do you ever sin? If you do, does that sin exist as an action that you commit?

This verb [sinning] must have an object [I, him, we, they, ect.]. To speak properly, you would say "do you ever COMMIT sin?" As all transgression (of the law) is sin. And without which (transgression) there is no sin.

For without the law sin was dead. [Rom 7:8b]

Or, have you redefined entity to mean the opposite of existence?

Is the Law of God an 'existance'?

Does it have a mind of it's own?

Nevertheless, when God 'created' His Law, it issued forth from Him.
Is the Law of God separate from God, in that it itself is a totally different entity, even though it's a thing? Even so, I'd say sin is not separate from the sinner, nor the one who may cause him to sin.

The Macquarie Dictionary's first definition for entity is "something that has a real existence; a thing".

Well, ya might wanna go look that up in your Funk and Wagnalls then

In Noah Websters Bible Dictionary (online) the first definition for existence is defined as;

1. (n.) The state of existing or being; actual possession of being; continuance in being; as, the existence of body and of soul in union; the separate existence of the soul; immortal existence.

Source

Whilst all the definitions (3 in total) define existence as a noun, not a verb. To 'sin' is to 'miss the mark', which is an action and thus a verb, whilst the entity sinning is the noun. Ergo is sin disqualified from this Bible dictionaries definitions as an entity with existence.

Therefore, your understanding of entity is contrary to the common, dictionary understanding.

Everything that has breath is alive, as per sound Biblical teaching [Lev 17:11]. Everything that has blood is alive, as per sound Biblical teaching [Gen 1:30,6:17,Ecc 3:19]. Can you think of any other instance of sound Biblical theology?

Does a chair have 'existence'?

If "I" stubb my toe on a "chair", is it now the CHAIRS fault for ME stubbing MY toe? Did it get in my way? Jump out and bite me? Stretch forth and trip me?

Though a chair may be 'real' in the sense that it is 'there' it can no more be animate with life than any other inanimate object.

Speaking of which (inanimate objects) I suppose you could define sin, until acted upon through transgression. After which sin revives, so to speak.

But even then, if I take the chair and lift it high above my head, swinging it 'round my head every which way but loose, does it have 'existence' because I am animating it? Is it now alive because I am?

So by definition, sin as an entity does have real existence.

There is a 'man of sin', and I do not deny that. Even anti-christ. Yet, anti-christ actively denies that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh.. Ergo, he is only anti-christ due to his denial, eg; his actions.

 

[OzSpen]

martymonster,

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Why don't you engage with me in conversation on this topic, instead of flashing a few verses at me?

Regards, Spencer

 

[martymonster]

martymonster,


Why don't you engage with me in conversation on this topic, instead of flashing a few verses at me?

Regards, Spencer

No problem Man.

I just thought that verse answered the question so I didn't have anything to add.

 

[Hillsage]

Zeena, I wrote so little and you wrote so much...wow.

Does Satan desire to sift you like wheat?
Who is the man of sin except the spirit of anti-christ?
The desire of such a demonic spirit is to have you, but not for good.

If he desired to sift Peter then I assume I could be a candidate....I guess And if 'the man of sin' is 'a spirit', does that mean an entity and existance??

I post some questions here for reflection.. Only.
As I, too, ponder these things in my heart.

Reflections are good as long as we aren't just seeing ourselves.
Pondering is healthy for discussion IMO.

As for the definition of sin, as per defined by God through the Bible;

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Transgression of the Law is an action wrought by transgressors.

I question your POV. But that's OK because everyone will probably question mine. I don't think the above verse is defining sin. Inquity is 'wrong'...transgression is 'wrong' and sin is 'wrong'. But they are all different IMO, even though 'theologians' consider them the same, and define them as "a heaping of terms" (or so I was told, by a seminary man). But I disagree, I personally believe one can commit a transgression without sinning. At the same time though, I don't believe you can commit a sin without having first committed a transgression (as your quoted verse said).

Personally I think that a transgression is a willful soulish thought that's contrary/rebellious to God/law. But I can have the temptation of a 'sinful thought' without ever committing the act/sin.

Can you name one instance where God has defined sin a being, ergo an entity, anywhere in Scripture?

Maybe, and it's the verse you quoted.

ROM 7:8 But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;

How does a 'nonentity' find an opportunity'...and 'revive from the dead'?

I say, if you, as a born again Christian, are going to stick with a definition of sin as an entity (though not Biblically sound, imo), then you best be believing that 'sin, crouching at the door' is a demonic spirit. Otherwise, it's in you, and you must master it.

But we know the whole world lieth under the evil one..

More ponderance, I hope.

Oh that we might know God's definition of 'entity' instead of Webster's...or Funk and Wagnalls. I do agree that there's a demonic spirit whose purpose is to 'rob, kill and destroy' us, with sin.

In Noah Websters Bible Dictionary (online) the first definition for existence is defined as;

1. (n.) The state of existing or being; actual possession of being; continuance in being; as, the existence of body and of soul in union; the separate existence of the soul; immortal existence.

I would say sin "exists" in this world, wouldn't you? And I know many 'beings who are possessed' with sin. But that's admittedly taking some liberty with the defintion. As far as the third definition... scripture says "God is spirit" and exists without 'body and soul union'...right? But we agree that God is an entity, right? As far as "the separate existance of the soul"...I don't know if Noah even understood that definition let alone me. I define the 'soul' as the 'brain at work'. Is that an entity in your opinion? And as far as "immortal existence" is concerned that's more of a use of the word than it is a definition IMO. So much for Noah...but this is admittedly tough business.

Zeena, you really don't have to answer all my questions, I really don't want to answer a long post. Hope you understand. Bitesize works better for me.

God bless you!

Thanks, and back to ya.

 

[Zeena]

Okay then Hillsage, bite-size it is

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

If sin only revives when the commandment comes in, as Saint Paul tesified, then, I ask, what 'entity' is this?

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[Hillsage]

Okay then Hillsage, bite-size it is

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

If sin only revives when the commandment comes in, as Saint Paul tesified, then, I ask, what 'entity' is this?

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Love bitesize...

"What 'entity' revives", you ask??? Here we go again, what exactly is an 'entity'? I don't know. Maybe it is a 'disembodied living ethereal force' that desires to manifest through our bodies in this physical world (How's that for a def. ). And if that is the case then 'the entity' would be our 'sinful flesh'.

ROM 7:17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells/oikeo within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.

3611 oikeo:" to occupy a house, i.e. reside (fig. inhabit, remain, inhere); by impl. to cohabit

Even Jesus came with "sinful flesh" and yet he never yielded to it. In fact he stated that "spirit was willing and flesh was weak". And if we're still all sinning, then maybe we aren't as 'spiritual' as we'd like to think....ouch.

I know this answer is simply 'out there' but it was the best 'bitesize' I could muster up.

Blessings Z.

~Hillsage~

 

[Zeena]

Love bitesize...

Bitesize it is!

"What 'entity' revives", you ask??? Here we go again, what exactly is an 'entity'? I don't know. Maybe it is a 'disembodied living ethereal force' that desires to manifest through our bodies in this physical world (How's that for a def. ).And if that is the case then 'the entity' would be our 'sinful flesh'.

To go along with this line of reasoning then.. Would 'all flesh' [that is to say, all that is of the material realm) be sinful as the gnostics testified?

ROM 7:17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells/oikeo within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.

3611 oikeo:" to occupy a house, i.e. reside (fig. inhabit, remain, inhere); by impl. to cohabit

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Even Jesus came with "sinful flesh" and yet he never yielded to it.

Here I believe your playing with fire, seeing as Satan has nothing in Christ, but I digress.

In fact he stated that "spirit was willing and flesh was weak". And if we're still all sinning, then maybe we aren't as 'spiritual' as we'd like to think....ouch.

I wouldn't even say any of us are spiritual, but rather, some are Spiritually minded.

Yes, the 'spiritual man' judges all things, but Who is that Spiritual Man except Christ in us, to Whom Judgment belongs?

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[That's the verse you were looking for previously, isn't it? ]

I know this answer is simply 'out there' but it was the best 'bitesize' I could muster up.

Blessings Z.

~Hillsage~

Blessings Hillsage!

 

[Hillsage]

Bitesize it is! To go along with this line of reasoning then.. Would 'all flesh' [that is to say, all that is of the material realm) be sinful as the gnostics testified?Romans 7:21

Ahhh computer problems. I posted and lost it all.
No I'm not a gnostic, even the rocks (material) would have worshipped Jesus according to scripture.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Here I believe your playing with fire, seeing as Satan has nothing in Christ, but I digress.I wouldn't even say any of us are spiritual, but rather, some are Spiritually minded.

I love "playing with fire". I've been 'baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire', my 'God is a consuming fire', I have/am being 'salted with fire'. So fire isn't always so bad IMO. I think that 'spiritual' and 'spiritually minded' are the same thing.

Yes, the 'spiritual man' judges all things, but Who is that Spiritual Man except Christ in us, to Whom Judgment belongs?

I think that the 'spiritual man' is my holy born again spirit in union ("bearing witness") with The Holy Spirit. "Christ in me" is any area of my soul where I have become 'inchristed' and put on 'the mind of Christ'. That is a formative process that's not yet complete in me.

GAL 4:19 My little children (immature believer), with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!

This post is different, that's how it goes I guess. Hopefully it goes.

Have a good one Zeena,

~Hillsage~

 

[Zeena]

Ahhh computer problems. I posted and lost it all.

Bah, so much for time contraints then huh?
Sorry for your loss.

No I'm not a gnostic, even the rocks (material) would have worshipped Jesus according to scripture.

Glad to hear, and great Scripture quote!

I love "playing with fire". I've been 'baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire', my 'God is a consuming fire', I have/am being 'salted with fire'. So fire isn't always so bad IMO.

hehe

I think that 'spiritual' and 'spiritually minded' are the same thing.

Yet there are many Christians who are yet carnally minded, even though they are spiritual beings.

I think that the 'spiritual man' is my holy born again spirit in union ("bearing witness") with The Holy Spirit.

I do not agree, for the spiritual men are the ones who are spiritually minded;

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Cor 3:3
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Even though many be Christian, are many also carnally minded.

"Christ in me" is any area of my soul where I have become 'inchristed' and put on 'the mind of Christ'. That is a formative process that's not yet complete in me.

It is good to see that you are privy Grace bro, that you are indeed growing up into Him in all things.. But, there comes a time when we 'settle down' in the faith and 'earn our bread', as well as being ministered to we minister Christ to others.

Saint Paul said he had 'finished the race', and indeed, for he Ministered Christ over my soul!

Also did he testify extensively about being spiritually minded. You quoted it yourself, 'put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'The Lord is that Spirit'.

GAL 4:19 My little children (immature believer), with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!

There are many mature Christian in this world, right now.

Col 2:8-10
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of thedivine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Hebrews 6:11-18
And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Gal 4:1-7
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Heb 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Eph 4:13-15
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

This post is different, that's how it goes I guess. Hopefully it goes.

Have a good one Zeena,

~Hillsage~

I think it needed to be.
I always stop drop and roll whenever I see an opportunity for Grace to be ministered.

Blessing Hillsage, in Christ.

 

[Hillsage]

Yet there are many Christians who are yet carnally minded, even though they are spiritual beings.

I'd say they are 'spirit' beings. Whether or not they are 'spiritual' depends upon whether they are led by the Sspirit or if they are led by the fleshly desires.

Originally Posted by Hillsage

I think that the 'spiritual man' is my holy born again spirit in union ("bearing witness") with The Holy Spirit.
​

I do not agree, for the spiritual men are the ones who are spiritually minded;

I agree. Hopefully my statement above lets you know why.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Carnal mindedness is being led by fleshly/carnal desires and spiritual (not capitalized) minded is being led of my spirit, which is one with The Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 3:3
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Even though many be Christian, are many also carnally minded.

Not as I define Christian. I define it as 'Christlike' and not as some 'religious affiliation'. I am still 'carnal minded' in areas of my soul (mind, will, emotions) that are not submitted to lordship. I think you know what I mean?


Originally Posted by Hillsage

"Christ in me" is any area of my soul where I have become 'inchristed' and put on 'the mind of Christ'. That is a formative process that's not yet complete in me.
​

It is good to see that you are privy Grace bro, that you are indeed growing up into Him in all things.. But, there comes a time when we 'settle down' in the faith and 'earn our bread', as well as being ministered to we minister Christ to others.

My dear sister, where do you think my 'inchristing' learned its greatest lessons and took its greatest tests? Nothing like those 'fires' to try and test one's soul. I've ministered, taught, led, organized ect. ect. So I agree there's bread to earn.

"Privy grace"??? Grace isn't undeserved favor IMO. The bible says something is required to receive grace...humbleness (Jam 4:6, 1Pe 5:5). And I can either humble myself as those scriptures say...or He can humble me (every son He loves He chastizes). And He doesn't chastize when I'm doing right, He does it when I'm doing wrong).


Good scripture quote to end your post.
I'm sending this computer to the mortician and he is here so I'm gone for a few days.

 

[Hismessenger]

I haven't posted on this thread in about a year but yet I see that the same lack of understanding still exists. In order to bring the light of truth to this and an ending for those who will perceive it I ask this one question. When the end of time comes, what will happen to evil? I ask this for you to understand that evil is a created thing, just as the heavens and the earth are created things and all creation. What does the word creation entail. Here is one definition which should open some eyes to the truth;

Create:
To create is to cause something to exist which did not exist before, as distinguished from make, to re‐form something already in existence.

With this being understood. How then can it not be seen that evil is a created thing which will be removed from the eternal when the end of time comes.

If this isn't enough, look at this passage from Job;

Even better still read the 34th chapter from beginning to end and see that Job applied the same argument about God as many have done here in this thread. But the word of God is true and this particular chapter takes in many aspects of the making of this thread.

Bottom line is, if God ended it all today there would be nothing but God if He so chooses but yet he has given that some of us may remain eternally conscious in Him and everything else will cease to be. I hope this will give a deeper insight into that which is all about the glory of God and not what we think and see.

hismessenger

 

[Christos Anesti]

Sin is the misuse of the good creation. "Misuse" isn't an essence. It wasn't a "thing" created by God. Sin was brought about by man and the devil. God didn't force them to sin. They sinned by misusing the good that they were given by God. Being finite, capable of change, and possessing the power of choice sin was a possibility for them but they made it a reality.

Yes there are times in the Scripture when sin is anthropomorphized and presented as a person. Then again the same is true of a lot of different things that are not in reality persons. It's just a poetic or symbolic manner of speaking. It doesn't literally imply the person-hood of sin anymore than it literally implies the person-hood of the physical sun when it is spoken of in anthropomorphic terms.

 

[Hismessenger]

[QUOTE It wasn't a "thing" created by God.][/quote]

Evidently you did not comprehend the definition of created.

Create:
To create is to cause something to exist which did not exist before, as distinguished from make, to re‐form something already in existence.

It was already created and could only be misused because it already existed. It could not spring from nothing of it's own accord. Did i make that clear?

hismessenger

 

[OzSpen]

Hismessenger,

I haven't posted on this thread in about a year but yet I see that the same lack of understanding still exists. In order to bring the light of truth to this and an ending for those who will perceive it I ask this one question. When the end of time comes, what will happen to evil? I ask this for you to understand that evil is a created thing, just as the heavens and the earth are created things and all creation. What does the word creation entail. Here is one definition which should open some eyes to the truth;
hismessenger

Where do the Scriptures state or infer anything like, "In the beginning, God created evil"?

Oz

 

[Christos Anesti]

Another similar anthropomorphism would the the Psalm that says "the sun knows its time for setting". Would you deduce from this that the sun is actually a person and he thinks "it's time for me to set now" and then he does it?

 

[razeontherock]

Eternity won't be just G-d existing, w/ good. That much is made very clear.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Where do the Scriptures state or infer anything like, "In the beginning, God created evil"?

Good point. The Bible teaches just the opposite that God looked upon ALL that He created and it was VERY GOOD.

 

[OzSpen]

Christos,

Another similar anthropomorphism would the the Psalm that says "the sun knows its time for setting". Would you deduce from this that the sun is actually a person and he thinks "it's time for me to set now" and then he does it?

There is a difference in meaning between "its" and "it's". The word, "its", is the possessive pronoun of the neuter pronoun, "it". The word, "it's" means "it is".

So in Psalm 104:19 where the verse states, "The sun knows its time for setting", the sun is referred to as a neuter object, by the neuter pronoun, "it", but in its possessive form "its". As one would expect, the sun is not a person, whether male or female, but is a neuter object.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[Christos Anesti]

At the very least the fact that sun "knows" something is an anthropomorphism. It doesn't imply that the sun is actually a person or that it has a mind though.

 

[Hismessenger]

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

So if the evil is in the tree in the beginning and There had been no sin by Adam and Eve. What would you say caused the evil to be there. Many don't believe what is plainly written. Satan had not entered the equation at that point either so how did it get there/ You ask yourself if this could have occurred from from nothing as by the definition of the word creation. It was said it was not verifiable from scripture but whoops! there it is.

hismessenger