GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[OzSpen]

antony55,

When Adam sinned, and man in Him, the image of God He was created with was lost, gone, except for the physical form man has.

In order for men to retain God's image, He must be created again, He must become a new creature.
Notice Paul's statements:

eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Now, if the new man which is created after God, in righteousness and true holiness, then apart from being a new man, that aspect of being in the image and likeness of God is missing.

One certainly cannot be in the image and likeness of God and lack righteousness and true holiness.

col 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The same thing here, it appears plainly to be no image of God within man until he is a new man, a new creation, of which he cannot play a part in.

To believe that men are by nature in the image and likeness of God is a lie, the scripture cannot support it.

He must be born again.

That is a statement of unorthodox Christianity.

The biblical evidence is that God's image/likeness is distorted in ALL human beings after the Fall into sin, but it is not eliminated. It is truth to say that all human beings after the Fall are still made in the image or likeness of God.

How do we know? The Bible tells us so. Firstly, we are told so in Gen. 9:6 at the time of the Flood where God gives Noah the authority to establish the death penalty for murder. Why? Remember that this is after the Fall. This is the reason:

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image (ESV).

Human beings are sinful after the Fall but there is still enough of the image of God in them so that to murder another person requires the death penalty. After the fall, sinful human beings are still in the image of God.

We have NT information confirming this from James 3:9, where James gives instruction on the use of the tongue:

With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God (ESV).

However, since the fall and the biblical doctrine of total (comprehensive) depravity, this image of God in human beings has been affected morally, intellectually, verbally, etc. Though all human beings are still made in the likeness of God, this image is distorted. It is stated like this in Ecclesiastes 7:29,

See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes (ESV).

Redemption in Christ provides a progressive recovery of more of the image of God (see Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 3:18; Rom. 8:29).

There will be a complete restoration of the image of God in human beings when Jesus comes again. It is stated beautifully in 1 Cor. 15:49:

The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven (ESV).

We see it further in 1 John 3:2:

...but we know that when he appears we shall be like him... (ESV)

I suggest that, based on the biblical material, the doctrine that you promote is unorthodox.

Sincerely, Spencer

 

[ittarter]

I'd like to know how something that was perfect can become imperfect of itself?

If I design a car and claim it's perfect and then theres a design flaw and it crashes and kills someone I'm responsible because though I claimed to have designed the perfect vehichle the flaw in it's design which is of my doing makes it imperfect.

When God's designs something however and it is claimed (not by Him) that it is perfect but it malfuctions and kills billions of people it's not God's fault?

When God said He made the world and declared afterward that it was very good, what was it good for?

Good for what He is using it for.
It is not the finnished product!

What would God want with physical creatures anyway?

He is spirit!

Cars aren't sentient.

Are parents responsible for everything their children do? (I hope that someone will come up with a subtle response rather than an outright YES or NO.)

We're not just physical, so... what you're saying is somewhat incoherent.

When God says that the world is good, why assume that God means useful? To my simple brain there seems to be a lot of other options being ignored.

 

[OzSpen]

martymonster,

Well if man's freewill caused Him to choose poorly then that is a design flaw then isn't it!

If man wasn't flawed He would have chose correctly then wouldn't He and freewill does not change the analogy.

Do you want your freewill taken away from you? Who are you to decide that God's giving you freewill, "Choose this day whom you will serve", is a design flaw? That is a very human perspective. The God who is in control of the world is the One who designed you to be able to express freewill. That's no design flaw but God's design that is meant to glorify him. Of course, it gives people the option to choose otherwise. Would you want that to be taken away from you? I appreciate that the God who made both of us has given us the freewill to disagree with each other in this post.

Regards, Spencer

 

[Znex]

That's quite the summary on WHY God created cyclones!

You and I both know that God does keep his will hidden. However, you're forgetting that the prophets, and even Jesus made it known. I wasn't saying that I had a full and utter knowledge of his will, for it is eternal; but rather God has already revealed knowledge of his will to us through Jesus and the rest of the Bible. What I provided previously of what might be his reasons are understandably limited, I was providing the most obvious reason, he could have some other minor reason behind it.

 

[martymonster]

We're talking about human beings, not cars.

Human being are created in the Image of God.. Temptation comes.. It comes to all of us, even Jesus was not immune to temptation, as a man, God in the flesh.. When we, as Christians abiding in Christ, resist temptation by submission to our Heavenly Father we grow in Grace and knowledge of the sufferings of Christ.. Our characters are built up to be more Christ-like, we are conformed.

There could be no growing up, no growing into the full stature of Christ Jesus our Lord without temptation, which requires a free-will choice to either submit to or reject the help of our Saviour.

Would God sin?

Would God sucumb to temptation?

Can God be tempted?

 

[Znex]

Would God sin?

Would God sucumb to temptation?

Can God be tempted?

God can't sin because
1. He's good
2. He's eternal (ie. he never changes)
3. He's omniscient

Humans are neither eternal nor omniscient, so you can hardly blame God for man's sins. God already told Adam and Eve beforehand that to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was extremely prohibited (the punishment, death). When they were tempted, they still had the choice whether to listen to God or to listen to the snake. The responsibility almost certainly falls to mankind, seeing as they knew the qualities listed above of God.

 

[martymonster]

Cars aren't sentient.

Are parents responsible for everything their children do? (I hope that someone will come up with a subtle response rather than an outright YES or NO.)

We're not just physical, so... what you're saying is somewhat incoherent.

When God says that the world is good, why assume that God means useful? To my simple brain there seems to be a lot of other options being ignored.

Are parents responsible for everything their children do?

Well since We are mere humans we are not sovereign over the smallest details of every little thing our children do but I would have to say yes!

We are resposible for teaching our children responsability and shaping the behaviour and attitudes of our children so if they make poor choices then as parents Yes we are responsible.

What do you make of the fact that God claims responibility for Adam and Eve failling the little test in the garden?

 

[martymonster]

martymonster,

Do you want your freewill taken away from you? Who are you to decide that God's giving you freewill, "Choose this day whom you will serve", is a design flaw? That is a very human perspective. The God who is in control of the world is the One who designed you to be able to express freewill. That's no design flaw but God's design that is meant to glorify him. Of course, it gives people the option to choose otherwise. Would you want that to be taken away from you? I appreciate that the God who made both of us has given us the freewill to disagree with each other in this post.

Regards, Spencer

LOL!

You can't take way whats not there.

You do realize that the bible does not support the man made notion of freewill right?

Having a will and being able to make choices in no way equals a will that is free.

You make choices everyday but they are all caused choices.

A caused choice is not a free choice.

 

[martymonster]

God can't sin because
1. He's good
2. He's eternal (ie. he never changes)
3. He's omniscient

Humans are neither eternal nor omniscient, so you can hardly blame God for man's sins. God already told Adam and Eve beforehand that to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was extremely prohibited (the punishment, death). When they were tempted, they still had the choice whether to listen to God or to listen to the snake. The responsibility almost certainly falls to mankind, seeing as they knew the qualities listed above of God.

The carnal mind is enmity against God and is not subject to His laws and neither can it be.

Sort of sounds like Eve's failure was a forgone conclusion.

 

[Znex]

What do you make of the fact that God claims responibility for Adam and Eve failling the little test in the garden?

Uh...he doesn't?

LOL!

You can't take away whats not there.

You do realize that the bible does not support the man made notion of freewill right?

Having a will and being able to make choices in no way equals a will that is free.

You make choices everyday but they are all caused choices.

A caused choice is not a free choice.

'Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."'

God has free will, we have free will. Simple as that. Also, you seem to not understand the meaning of free will.

 

[martymonster]

Uh...he doesn't?

'Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."'

God has free will, we have free will. Simple as that. Also, you seem to not understand the meaning of free will.

How do you come to the conclusion that Adam and Eve could been made sinless with the ablilty to choose to do the right thing when God clearly says otherwise?

1. Made from the dust of the ground.

2. They were both naked.

Both of these things mean sin in scripture and they were both a fact before the serpant came along.

Also, if We are to be changed in to incorruptable spirits does that mean that We will have no freewill then?
Since freewill is supposedly so important that seems like a bit of giant step backwards doesn't it?

Here is a verse about how God really made manKind.

For the vessel was marred in the potters hand so it seemed good for Him to remake it.

And again.

The creature (us) was made subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope.

I don't have my bible in front of Me so I apologize if it's not word for word which is why you should go and read them for yourself.

 

[OzSpen]

martymonster,

G'day mate! Greetings from a fellow Aussie!

You do realize that the bible does not support the man made notion of freewill right?

Having a will and being able to make choices in no way equals a will that is free.

What did God mean, then, when he said this in Joshua 24:15?

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD (ESV).

Regards, Spencer

 

[martymonster]

martymonster,

G'day mate! Greetings from a fellow Aussie!


What did God mean, then, when he said this in Joshua 24:15?

Regards, Spencer

Hi Spencer!

Yeah theres a few Aussies on CF now.



You can make choices but they aren't fee that's all.

The carnal mind is emnity against God and not subject to His laws and neither can it be.

If We choose to follow God it is always that causes us to do that otherwise We would never follow Him in a billion years.

We can make choices but they are always caused choices.
When We choose to follow God, God caused that.
When We choose not to follow God, our fleshy nature caused it.

 

[Znex]

How do you come to the conclusion that Adam and Eve could been made sinless with the ablilty to choose to do the right thing when God clearly says otherwise?

1. Made from the dust of the ground.

2. They were both naked.

Both of these things mean sin in scripture and they were both a fact before the serpant came along.

Also, if We are to be changed in to incorruptable spirits does that mean that We will have no freewill then?
Since freewill is supposedly so important that seems like a bit of giant step backwards doesn't it?

Here is a verse about how God really made manKind.

For the vessel was marred in the potters hand so it seemed good for Him to remake it.

And again.

The creature (us) was made subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope.

I don't have my bible in front of Me so I apologize if it's not word for word which is why you should go and read them for yourself.

Correction: the Hebrew word for naked is like the Hebrew word for cunning, but they are not the same word.

God clearly says don't eat from the tree or you will die. Why would he bother telling them this if they didn't have free will? God makes no mistakes, this much is clear from the prophets. You need to stop reading the unreliable readings from where you get your quotes.

 

[Zeena]

You and I both know that God does keep his will hidden.

Can ya tell I was fishing for this confession?

However, you're forgetting that the prophets, and even Jesus made it known.

I see nothing of the sort in Scripture.

I wasn't saying that I had a full and utter knowledge of his will, for it is eternal; but rather God has already revealed knowledge of his will to us through Jesus and the rest of the Bible.

Only as pertain to us.. What is relevant that we should know..

What I provided previously of what might be his reasons are understandably limited, I was providing the most obvious reason, he could have some other minor reason behind it.

Or, you're reasoning could be totally off the wall!

If it's not, then it will be attested to by God via the Scriptures of Prophecy, even as you said, no?

 

[Zeena]

Would God sin?

No.

Would God sucumb to temptation?

Instead of the 'would', I'm going to answer a question of my own chosing for this, thus rephrasing it according to my chosing;

Did God succumb to temptation... NO!

But He did decended from Heaven and became a man of like passions, such as ourselves.. In which (flesh) He had the option of succumbing to temptation, should He have failed to rely on His Father (which He never failed to do).

Can God be tempted?

As a man, God in the flesh, most definately, which is ALSO attested to in Scripture. But as the Lord in Heaven with His Glorified Body, nope.

 

[Znex]

However, you're forgetting that the prophets, and even Jesus made it known.

I see nothing of the sort in Scripture.

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29)

'The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."' (Matt 13:10-11)

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Cor 2:6-8)

"In [Christ] we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that [God] lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ." (Ephesians 1:7-10)

If you haven't, you need to be reading your Bible more.

 

[martymonster]

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29)

'The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."' (Matt 13:10-11)

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Cor 2:6-8)

"In [Christ] we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that [God] lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ." (Ephesians 1:7-10)

If you haven't, you need to be reading your Bible more.

If it doesn't matter how much you read your bible if God does not give you eyes to see or ears to hear.

Tell Me, which is more powerfull, God's sovereignty or man's freewill?

 

[OzSpen]

martymonster,

I think that we can skirt around this free will issue when we discuss free will as the cause of a free act and that is not the case. Free will is actually the agent’s (human being’s) power through which he/she performs the free act. I act by means of my will. So, the cause of my free act is really the free agent and not my will. God has made all human beings as free agents.

How do we know this? The Bible tells us so!

Peter tells us in 1 Peter 5:2 about free choice when he tells us that elders will shepherd the flock of God, “not under compulsion” but “willingly”. Even depraved human beings have the ability/power of free choice. Scoffers “deliberately” overlook facts about the creation of the heavens and the earth (2 Peter 3:5 ESV). According to Rom. 1:18-19, unbelievers have “clearly seen” and understood the truth but they “suppress” the truth or “hold it down”, thus making them “without excuse” before God.

Calvin & Luther were correct that unbelievers, as fallen human beings, cannot initiate their own salvation. However, contrary to Calvinism, the Bible asserts that fallen human beings are free. The are free to marry if they wish (1 Cor. 7:30). They are free to believe the Gospel (see Acts 16:31; 17:30). Second Corinthians 9:7 says that each person “must give as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion”. This is another statement of persons being free agents who have the ability to choose.

Even unbelievers have a free choice to receive or reject God’s gift of salvation as Rom. 6:23 states, “For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (ESV). What did Jesus say of those who rejected him? “You were not willing” (Matt. 23:37). Remember John 1:12? “All who received him”.

The Bible is loaded with statements about “I believe”, “we believe”, “whoever believes”. I choose to believe. These statements do not state, “I was forced to believe”, “we had irresistible grace forced on us to believe”, “whoever is predestined to believe must believe”.

Human beings are free agents to choose to believe in Jesus Christ or to reject Him. God does not force them either way. Norman Geisler’s book, Chosen But Free (Bethany House Publishers 1999), in my view, is a magnificent exposition of God making all people free agents who can choose for or against God. However, it is God who initiates the availability of salvation and “God is not willing that any should perish”.

Sincerely, Spencer

Hi Spencer!

Yeah theres a few Aussies on CF now.



You can make choices but they aren't fee that's all.

The carnal mind is emnity against God and not subject to His laws and neither can it be.

If We choose to follow God it is always that causes us to do that otherwise We would never follow Him in a billion years.

We can make choices but they are always caused choices.
When We choose to follow God, God caused that.
When We choose not to follow God, our fleshy nature caused it.

 

[OzSpen]

marty,

Tell Me, which is more powerfull, God's sovereignty or man's freewill?

The sovereign God has made all human beings as free agents.

Regards, Spencer