GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Almighty's humble servant]

Then I guess you don't believe in what the Old Testament say's bout God being the creator of "Good, and Evil"
If that is the case then your one of those Christians who pick and choose which parts of the bible fit your theology, and that's O.K.



I wasn't offended in the least, so no need to ask, but If you want "You are forgiven my friend"



I would have to differ with you Almighty, because this person you speak of is nobody according to anybody. Only those who would buy into Benjamin Creme, and his ideology are deluded. He is no threat to anyone. The New Testament even declares what "God" does with people that believe a lie.

2nd Thes. 2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


If anyone is deluded it is because God himself sends them this delusion. So think, and read your bible before going off and declaring yourself to be a "spokesman for God," or you might just be doing what God never intends for you to do, but no matter God will set you where He wants you to be when the time is right.

Thank you for accepting my apology.

My name now is charles, and i am only a slave to the Most Gracious ALmighty.

Sincerely
brother charles

 

[OzSpen]

Almighty’s humble servant,

You wrote:

I refuse to acknowledge or consider that the ALL good God, who is incapable of evil due to the nature of His grace, has created evil, nor do I subcribe to the puppeteering accusation that would ensue.

Isaiah 45:7 in the KJV states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

In the NIV it reads: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

In the ESV, the translation is: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

The NASB translation is: "The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."
Here is the contrast:

• "I make peace, and I create evil" (KJV);
• "I bring prosperity and create disaster" (NIV);
• "I make well-being and create calamity" (ESV);
• "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does these" (NASB).

Does God, the Lord, create moral evil, i.e. does God create sin, or does he create calamity or disaster? There is quite a difference in the meaning. If God creates all the evil in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of this world, what kind of a God is he? If he creates calamities or disasters what kind of God is he?

The word translated "evil" or "disaster/calamity" is the Hebrew, ra. It is true that the word can be used to refer to natural disasters or calamities. It is a very common word for evil as a general description in the OT. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Gen. 2:9 uses this word, as is the evil of the people that brought the judgment of Noah’s flood (Gen. 6:5). The evil of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Gen. 13:13 uses this word (Grudem 1994, p. 326 n7).

Ps. 34:14 reads, "Turn away from evil and do good." There’s that word, ra, again. We read of it again in Isa. 59:7, speaking of those whose "feet run to evil." You can read it also in other passages in Isaiah (see Isa. 47:10, 11; 56:2; 57:1; 59:15; 65:12; 66:4).

There are many other OT passages that use ra to refer to moral evil (i.e. sin) and to disaster/calamity. How do we know how to translate? The context will tell us. Does God create evil/sin, or does God create disaster?

As Gordon Lewis and Bruce Demarest put it: "Isaiah does not teach the blasphemous idea that the Lord creates sin!" (1987, p. 312). If we look to the context of Isa. 45:7, this is what we find:

· Isa.45:11, "Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel." He is the God of holiness. So, God could not be the creator of sin. Sin is incompatible with God’s holiness.

· Isaiah predicted that sudden disaster would come to Babylon: "But evil shall come upon you, which you will not know how to charm away; disaster shall fall upon you, for which you will not be able to atone; and ruin shall come upon you suddenly, of which you know nothing" Isa 47:11 (ESV).

You can read a similar emphasis in Amos 3:6, which the KJV translates as: "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it?" The NIV translates as: "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

It is only when there is judgment for sin that the prophets write as in Isa 45:7, "I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" (NIV). "Like a just judge, God decrees punishment for sin but he does not decree acts of sin" (Lewis and Demarest 1987, p. 312).

Remember Jonah who was thrown overboard by men on that ship travelling to Tarshish? "Then they [the men on the boat] took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm" (Jonah 1:15, NIV).

However, five verses later, in Jonah 2:3, Jonah is praying to God, "You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me" (NIV).

How is it that the men on the boat threw Jonah overboard and that God hurled Jonah into the deep? The Bible can affirm that men did it and that it was God in action. God brought about his plan by using the men on the boat. In a way that we don’t quite understand, "God caused [the men] to make a willing choice to do what they did" (Grudem 1994, p. 326).


Alec Motyer observes concerning Isa. 45:7,

"Prosperity … disaster: the older, literal rendering ‘peace … evil’ caused unnecessary difficulties. Can the Lord ‘create evil’? Out of about 640 occurrences of the word ra’, which range in meaning from a ‘nasty’ taste to a full moral evil, there are about 275 cases where it refers to trouble or calamity. Each case must be judged by its context and NIV has done so correctly here. Cyrus was ‘bad news’ to the kings he conquered and the cities he overthrew. But Isaiah’s (and the Bible’s) view of divine providence is rigorous – and for that reason full of comfort. Sinful minds want the comfort of a sovereign God but jib at saying with Job (2:10), ‘Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble (ra)?’ (1999, p. 287).

How does this relate to Isa. 45:7? God used people in Jonah’s day to perform an evil action. In Isaiah’s day, God brought disaster on Babylon through the use of human means.

God does not create all of the sinful evil in the world, but God does bring disaster or calamity as his judgment. It was God who created "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen. 2:9).

References:
Wayne Grudem 1994, Systematic Theology, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Gordon R. Lewis and Bruce A. Demarest 1987, Integrative Theology, vol. 1, Academie Books (Zondervan Publishing House), Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Alec Motyer 1999, Isaiah (Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries), Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester, England.

Sincerely,
Spencer

 

[yashua1970]

Almighty’s humble servant,

You wrote:


Isaiah 45:7 in the KJV states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

In the NIV it reads: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

In the ESV, the translation is: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

The NASB translation is: "The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."
Here is the contrast:

• "I make peace, and I create evil" (KJV);
• "I bring prosperity and create disaster" (NIV);
• "I make well-being and create calamity" (ESV);
• "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does these" (NASB).

Does God, the Lord, create moral evil, i.e. does God create sin, or does he create calamity or disaster? There is quite a difference in the meaning. If God creates all the evil in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of this world, what kind of a God is he? If he creates calamities or disasters what kind of God is he?

The word translated "evil" or "disaster/calamity" is the Hebrew, ra. It is true that the word can be used to refer to natural disasters or calamities. It is a very common word for evil as a general description in the OT. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Gen. 2:9 uses this word, as is the evil of the people that brought the judgment of Noah’s flood (Gen. 6:5). The evil of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Gen. 13:13 uses this word (Grudem 1994, p. 326 n7).

Ps. 34:14 reads, "Turn away from evil and do good." There’s that word, ra, again. We read of it again in Isa. 59:7, speaking of those whose "feet run to evil." You can read it also in other passages in Isaiah (see Isa. 47:10, 11; 56:2; 57:1; 59:15; 65:12; 66:4).

There are many other OT passages that use ra to refer to moral evil (i.e. sin) and to disaster/calamity. How do we know how to translate? The context will tell us. Does God create evil/sin, or does God create disaster?

As Gordon Lewis and Bruce Demarest put it: "Isaiah does not teach the blasphemous idea that the Lord creates sin!" (1987, p. 312). If we look to the context of Isa. 45:7, this is what we find:

· Isa.45:11, "Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel." He is the God of holiness. So, God could not be the creator of sin. Sin is incompatible with God’s holiness.

· Isaiah predicted that sudden disaster would come to Babylon: "But evil shall come upon you, which you will not know how to charm away; disaster shall fall upon you, for which you will not be able to atone; and ruin shall come upon you suddenly, of which you know nothing" Isa 47:11 (ESV).

You can read a similar emphasis in Amos 3:6, which the KJV translates as: "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it?" The NIV translates as: "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

It is only when there is judgment for sin that the prophets write as in Isa 45:7, "I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" (NIV). "Like a just judge, God decrees punishment for sin but he does not decree acts of sin" (Lewis and Demarest 1987, p. 312).

Remember Jonah who was thrown overboard by men on that ship travelling to Tarshish? "Then they [the men on the boat] took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm" (Jonah 1:15, NIV).

However, five verses later, in Jonah 2:3, Jonah is praying to God, "You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me" (NIV).

How is it that the men on the boat threw Jonah overboard and that God hurled Jonah into the deep? The Bible can affirm that men did it and that it was God in action. God brought about his plan by using the men on the boat. In a way that we don’t quite understand, "God caused [the men] to make a willing choice to do what they did" (Grudem 1994, p. 326).


Alec Motyer observes concerning Isa. 45:7,

How does this relate to Isa. 45:7? God used people in Jonah’s day to perform an evil action. In Isaiah’s day, God brought disaster on Babylon through the use of human means.

God does not create all of the sinful evil in the world, but God does bring disaster or calamity as his judgment. It was God who created "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen. 2:9).

References:
Wayne Grudem 1994, Systematic Theology, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Gordon R. Lewis and Bruce A. Demarest 1987, Integrative Theology, vol. 1, Academie Books (Zondervan Publishing House), Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Alec Motyer 1999, Isaiah (Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries), Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester, England.

Sincerely,
Spencer

Hello OzSpen.
You are right in that God created "Good & Evil", and it is the Hebrew "Ra" and so fourth.

I think what most fail to grasp about the Moral or Immoral issue is that when God created the "knowledge Of" good and evil, God "knows" how to use both in a balanced sense. We however do not "know." The Bible states in Gen 3:22:
God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The tree means literally in Hebrew "to make firm" "to shut, specifically the eys" in Arabic to "shut a door"

God never introduced the tree of Life to them at all, but instead drove them from the place, and guarded the tree of life.

We do not yet "know" in the sense that God knows, and it is because that is the way God planned it from the beginning. When that time comes "we shall be like him"

 

[OzSpen]

Yashua,

You are right in that God created "Good & Evil", and it is the Hebrew "Ra" and so fourth.

You have misread what I wrote. I showed from Isa 45:7 that God did not create moral evil. He does create calamity as judgment.

Genesis 2:9 states, “And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (ESV). Then in Gen. 2:17, God’s instructions were, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”.

What does this mean for the beginning of the human race? Based on Gen. 2:17, in the beginning God tested human beings by forbidding them to eat of a specific tree, “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”. The word translated “knowledge” is an infinitive da’ath and functions as a verb with a double object, “good and evil”, so “the tree of knowing good and evil” would be a more helpful translation. Thus, a “tree” used to test the early human race regarding the moral/ethical contrast of good and evil. This tree became an agency by which the first human beings were confronted with the choice to do God’s will or refuse to do God’s will, i.e. the choice of good vs. evil.

Why did Adam and Eve not die physically the moment they ate of the tree (Gen. 3:6) in fulfilment of Gen. 2:17? Adam lived to be 930 years old after he sinned (see Gen. 5:5).

Gen. 2:17 was fulfilled in a couple of ways. We can say that Adam and Eve began to die physically the moment they sinned (see Rom. 5:12) and they most certainly died spiritually when they first sinned (see Eph. 2:1). So Gen. 2:17 was fulfilled.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Almighty’s humble servant,

You wrote:


Isaiah 45:7 in the KJV states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

In the NIV it reads: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

In the ESV, the translation is: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

The NASB translation is: "The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."
Here is the contrast:

• "I make peace, and I create evil" (KJV);
• "I bring prosperity and create disaster" (NIV);
• "I make well-being and create calamity" (ESV);
• "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does these" (NASB).

Does God, the Lord, create moral evil, i.e. does God create sin, or does he create calamity or disaster? There is quite a difference in the meaning. If God creates all the evil in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of this world, what kind of a God is he? If he creates calamities or disasters what kind of God is he?

The word translated "evil" or "disaster/calamity" is the Hebrew, ra. It is true that the word can be used to refer to natural disasters or calamities. It is a very common word for evil as a general description in the OT. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Gen. 2:9 uses this word, as is the evil of the people that brought the judgment of Noah’s flood (Gen. 6:5). The evil of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Gen. 13:13 uses this word (Grudem 1994, p. 326 n7).

Ps. 34:14 reads, "Turn away from evil and do good." There’s that word, ra, again. We read of it again in Isa. 59:7, speaking of those whose "feet run to evil." You can read it also in other passages in Isaiah (see Isa. 47:10, 11; 56:2; 57:1; 59:15; 65:12; 66:4).

There are many other OT passages that use ra to refer to moral evil (i.e. sin) and to disaster/calamity. How do we know how to translate? The context will tell us. Does God create evil/sin, or does God create disaster?

As Gordon Lewis and Bruce Demarest put it: "Isaiah does not teach the blasphemous idea that the Lord creates sin!" (1987, p. 312). If we look to the context of Isa. 45:7, this is what we find:

· Isa.45:11, "Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel." He is the God of holiness. So, God could not be the creator of sin. Sin is incompatible with God’s holiness.

· Isaiah predicted that sudden disaster would come to Babylon: "But evil shall come upon you, which you will not know how to charm away; disaster shall fall upon you, for which you will not be able to atone; and ruin shall come upon you suddenly, of which you know nothing" Isa 47:11 (ESV).

You can read a similar emphasis in Amos 3:6, which the KJV translates as: "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it?" The NIV translates as: "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

It is only when there is judgment for sin that the prophets write as in Isa 45:7, "I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" (NIV). "Like a just judge, God decrees punishment for sin but he does not decree acts of sin" (Lewis and Demarest 1987, p. 312).

Remember Jonah who was thrown overboard by men on that ship travelling to Tarshish? "Then they [the men on the boat] took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm" (Jonah 1:15, NIV).

However, five verses later, in Jonah 2:3, Jonah is praying to God, "You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me" (NIV).

How is it that the men on the boat threw Jonah overboard and that God hurled Jonah into the deep? The Bible can affirm that men did it and that it was God in action. God brought about his plan by using the men on the boat. In a way that we don’t quite understand, "God caused [the men] to make a willing choice to do what they did" (Grudem 1994, p. 326).


Alec Motyer observes concerning Isa. 45:7,

How does this relate to Isa. 45:7? God used people in Jonah’s day to perform an evil action. In Isaiah’s day, God brought disaster on Babylon through the use of human means.

God does not create all of the sinful evil in the world, but God does bring disaster or calamity as his judgment. It was God who created "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen. 2:9).

References:
Wayne Grudem 1994, Systematic Theology, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Gordon R. Lewis and Bruce A. Demarest 1987, Integrative Theology, vol. 1, Academie Books (Zondervan Publishing House), Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Alec Motyer 1999, Isaiah (Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries), Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester, England.

Sincerely,
Spencer

This is my understanding of the above verses and others that relate to this. Indeed our ALL Good Father must at times chastise us when we try to live outside His perfection. This is one example of "ra". This is not evil, this is discipline. As every good father does, our Father must do this to remind us that we are but children to Him.

I have gone round and round with dozens of misled free masons about this subject, and they always maintain that God is both the good and the evil, and what part of Him we are, is our free will.

I choose to rebuke this teaching, as deliberate of the satan. This is completely against the infallibilty of our PERFECT Creator.

Thanks for solidifying my position.

Sincerely,
brother charles

 

[OzSpen]

Charles,

This is my understanding of the above verses and others that relate to this. Indeed our ALL Good Father must at times chastise us when we try to live outside His perfection. This is one example of "ra". This is not evil, this is discipline. As every good father does, our Father must do this to remind us that we are but children to Him.

Thanks for your kind words. Those who don't understand the Scriptures confuse moral evil with calamity/judgment.

However, these calamities of judgment also are sent to the unbelieving world. How many earthquakes and tsunamis have you noticed against lands that are promoting something other than biblical righteousness.

I was discussing Isa 45:7 and differentiating between moral evil and calamity. Later in the same chapter we have the oft repeated words in Scripture, "To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance" (Isa. 45:23b). When God sends calamity by way of judgment, surely this should awaken a nation or a people to flee from its idols and other unrighteous religious practices.

In Christ, Spencer

 

[jkim87]

Ok... I'm new here, and this is my theory. I know that God is all knowing, but I feel that He made several paths for us to choose from, and He knows all the possible outcomes of our choices, but He left it up to us to make the right choice. So my theory is that God knows all that can happen and will happen depending on our choices. (I hope this makes sense.)

 

[Zeena]

Ok... I'm new here, and this is my theory. I know that God is all knowing, but I feel that He made several paths for us to choose from, and He knows all the possible outcomes of our choices, but He left it up to us to make the right choice. So my theory is that God knows all that can happen and will happen depending on our choices. (I hope this makes sense.)

Welcome to CF jkim 87

There's only one Way God made for us, and that's through Jesus.

 

[OzSpen]

jkim87,

I'm so pleased you have found us and joined us. Welcome! In which part of the world do you live? I'm an Aussie!

Ok... I'm new here, and this is my theory. I know that God is all knowing, but I feel that He made several paths for us to choose from, and He knows all the possible outcomes of our choices, but He left it up to us to make the right choice. So my theory is that God knows all that can happen and will happen depending on our choices. (I hope this makes sense.)

If that is what you believe, why don't you provide some biblical references to support your view? Or if you follow other authoritative sources, why don't you quote them?

 

[Dominic Korozya]

Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.

My Lord.

With these great attributes of God, its hard to imagine how evil ever came to be, that is as we know it to be. Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error. We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker! Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer. (rebellion is no doubt an imperfection) Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible! Even men never quarrel with their tools! We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future. U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way! According to an Omniscient God FREE WILL doesn't exist.

Interesting.

So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan. God designed both good and evil, he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.

Amen. See how even Satan cannot go against the Lords wishes? He does more work for God in a day than we do in a year.

My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.

No need for evidence, your argument is heavily supported.

This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....

Evil balances nothing, it simply destroys.

And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him

Because we need to ask Him to stop.

 

[Zeena]

"but a creature working according to how it was designd to work."

So then you are all working according to your design, when you SIN?!?

1 John 2:21
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

lev 19;11
Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Ez 28:13-19
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[jkim87]

To be honest, I do not have a scripture to go by, but I do know that God gave man a choice, and I believe that when God gave man a choice, He was leaving it up to man to choose his own path. I think that God knows all possible outcomes from our choices, but He leaves it up to us to make the right choice. This is a really hard thing to explain..




Edit:.. Oh by the way, I'm from the southern United States.(This is for the person who asked me earlier.)

 

[_JJM]

God made flesh.

God made law.

God made them apart

Flesh apart from Law = No Sin

Man put them together (Ate from Tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL)

Flesh + Law = Sin

Law stays forever. To have no Sin, Flesh must Go.

No Flesh = No Sin

Be Crucified with Christ (dead flesh), buried into baptism (dead flesh), circumcised in the spirit (dead flesh), receive a clean slate.

Jesus = Gospel.

 

[addo]

Omnipresent, (is every where at every time)

Sorry, I can't resist: I have to say it.

Where did you get that from? Where does it say God is omnipresent?

 

[OzSpen]

addo,

Sorry, I can't resist: I have to say it.

Where did you get that from? Where does it say God is omnipresent?

Don’t you read your Bible?

The Scriptures clearly teach God’s omnipresence. By omnipresence, I agree with theologian Wayne Grudem’s definition: “God does not have size or spatial dimensions and is present at every point of space with his whole being, yet God acts differently in different places” (Systematic Theology, Zondervan 1994, p. 173).

Jeremiah 23:23-24 states:

"Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD” (ESV).

Psalm 139:7-10 expresses God’s omnipresence so well:

Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me (ESV).

Thus, there is absolutely nowhere in the entire universe, land, sea, heaven or hell, where anyone can flee from the presence of God. He is everywhere. He is omnipresent. This teaching is clear in the Scriptures and I've only touched on it here.

Regards, Spencer

 

[martymonster]

God created Satan the way He is to do what it is that He is doing, and doing it quite nicely I might add.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
G623
Ἀπολλύων
Apolluōn
ap-ol-loo'-ohn
Active participle of G622; a destroyer (that is, Satan): - Apollyon.

God created Satan to destroy our flesh, that is the carnal mind of man and in doing so create us in His image.

Satan was never Lucifer, a beautiful archangel some physical abode of God.
He was created as Satan to destroy the carnal mind of man.

Just like Christ's food is to do the will of God who sent Him.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Just like Christ's meat is to do the will of God, Satan's meat is to feed of the evil thoughts and deeds of mankind.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Satan is only doing what He was created to do.
He can only do what God says He can do and no more.
If it were not true then how do you explain this scripture from Job?

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

This situation is not unique to Job, it's not a once off, it is happening in the life of all believers!

 

[Satt]

After reading all these posts, it seems that God just got really bored over many billions of years and this is all just a big game to him. It's almost like how people that get really bored watch "reality television" to get excited over other people's drama.

 

[Znex]

God never created evil; it is quite clear from the Bible that evil is a product of sin, that is, a product of man. These two statements are not contradictory towards each other, for God created man in the image of himself.

Therefore, man has the ability to think, to reflect, to create, to destroy, etc, but most of all, to choose. By removing from us the ability to sin, God would be robbing us of the ability to choose; for we were created from the beginning to be images of God, to be rulers, under him, over all that has been created by him. So ultimately, through choice we created sin. Through our own choices, we rebelled against God. So what God has promised has come to pass. (Gen 2:16-17) For what we do not have in common with God is that we had a beginning and are not eternal like God, as the prophets testify, but we are temporal. The reason we can trust God is because he is unchanging; he is not trapped by the constraints of time, which was initially created as a good thing for man. We can not see the future outcomes of our choices, but God has declared for us the outcome if we continue to sin; both now and back in the Garden of Eden. (Gen 2:16-17)

From the moment of rebellion, however, we have sold ourselves to Satan in slavery as Christ Jesus and the apostle Paul testify. (John 8:31-36, Rom 6:6-7, Gal 4:1-7) We are unable to stop sinning for it is all we know, and it is all we can do. What was once darkness however is now light in the light of our Lord Jesus Christ; through him our bonds crafted by the deceiver and by us are broken, because of his death God has adopted us as not only part of his household, but also as his children. His Holy Spirit testifies about this to us, and what he says is known to be true.

What shall we do then? If it is through Christ alone we are redeemed, then we must do what he commands us to do; "stop sinning" (John 5:14) and "follow me". I can tell you with confidence, and shame, that it is impossible to stop sinning, as is also testified by the apostles and the prophets; then what does Jesus mean? We know that on the tree, the weight of our transgressions was on him, and it is through grace alone that we are saved. Instead, this is what The Lord commands throughout both the Old and New Testament: REPENT. This is the main meaning of repent I am referring to: "To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins." (repent - definition of repent by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.)

Therefore, God does not ask for us to stop sinning completely (for this is impossible), but to stop sinning as is our ability through the help of the Holy Spirit. This way, what Christ Jesus is asking for us to do is to repent, and follow him as not just our Saviour, but also as Lord.

 

[martymonster]

Strictly speaking sin is evil but evil is not sin!

A hurricane for example could be considered evil even thought it has no intent of any kind, it's just the effects of the right weather patterns.

A hurricane could kill thousands of people which could be considered evil, but it could not be considered sin because it did not do it with evil intent.

Sin on the hand is done with intent, and intent is the key word here.

Lets take smacking a child as an example here.

If I smack my child because I enjoy hurting Him then obviously it is sin, but if I smack Him because He was naughty and I love Him so I smack Him because I want Him to grow up into a happy and productive adult then it is not sin.

It is the intent behind an act which makes it sin or not, not the actual act itself.

It is sin that comes from the heart and causes us to do evil and to sin.

Sin is evil but evil is not sin unless it is caused by sin.

So the question the is, how can God create evil without sinning?

The answer is easy!

When God created and indeed created evil it was for a good purpose with only a good outcome for us in mind, and that is for us to be changed into His image.

When We do or create evil it is not with the best of intentions.
It is only with our own selfish desires and sin in mind.

God creates evil as stated in the scriptures but without ever sinning!

 

[Zeena]

*snip*
Satan is only doing what He was created to do.

No.

For Satan was not created 'Satan', but 'Lucifer', the annointed cherub covering the Mercy Seat;

Ez 28:13-14
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

But he (Lucifer) sinned and was cast down from Heaven;

Ez 28:15-19
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Rev 12:9-11
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Ez 28:17-19
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Is 14:3-26
And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.