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GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

Zeena

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Sorry Zeena but God did not rebuke Job for accusing Him sending evil upon Him because He was correct in His assertion that God was in fact responsible for the evil that had befallen Him.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

After having said that God is responsible for evil it then says that Job had not sinned by saying it, because it's true.

So what was it that Job did do wrong then?

Self righteousness!

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?


Yes, the whole book is about Job thinking that He was righteous because He was righteous in the flesh which only leads to self righteousness which is filth rags in the nostrils of God.
Aww hon! :hug:

Have you never had a loved one in desperate need from a touch from the Lord in their troubles? Have you nought met anyone trembling in fear over their present or their future, nor one so abused in their past that all they wanted to do was crawl back into their momma's womb, where it's cozy and warm, safe and sound? Have you never been there yourself? I know i have, many times. And not one of those 'times' did the Lord condemn me, but has, rather, comforted me with His wonderful Presence! :hug:

1 John 4:18a
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.

.
 
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Everything(meaning everything) that God has created is good(HOLY), and NOTHING(self explainatory) is to be rejected when recieved with thanksgiving.

ALmighty is the author of good. Righteousness and Holiness. We were made man. In which case the Lord added a brain to control our vitali organs, but also our thought. When we ate of the forbidden fruit, our brain became thirsty for knowledge, and in that, evil, was to be found.

God does not create evil. ALthough many verses seem to point tothe fact that He does, but they are merely mistranlations where calamity is replace with evil.

He is incapable of fallibilty, and our faith is based off this perfection.

All is according to His purpose, although He has allowed individual the decision as to which roles they shall play.
 
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Zeena

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Not at all ittarter.





Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

The Lord claims direct responsibility for what happened to Job.
If I hire a hitman kill someone I am directly responsible for their death and so is the case with Satan doing what God has told Him to do.





Sorry but you are wrong, the whole point of Job is that He thinks that He hasn't done anything wrong.

Earlier on Job gives us a long list of all the good works that He has done and compares it to the works of others and what does christ say?


Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Would you say that Job was abased?
God doesn't need to hire a hitman MartyMonster.. And would He? :blush:

Hebrews 6:9-10
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
 
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OzSpen

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ittarter,
In summary, it is evident that, at the level of Wisdom literature, God is said to promise to run a universe that is consistent and reliable as he is. However, as far as his people can tell, the system fails sometimes fails to make sense of personal experience and leaves them confused as to what can really be trusted. The only final solution is the realization that God is great and humans are as a mist, and that gap can provide sufficient reason to those with faith to, at the very least, keep on at life, believing that the reliability of their Creator does not turn on whether or not they understand the way he chooses to govern the world.
I can enthusiastically endorse that conclusion, as long as you are not suggesting that the nature of the one true God, as demonstrated in Wisdom literature, is different from the nature of the one true God who manifests Himself in the life of Israel and the remainder of the OT.

I sincerely appreciate your making your points in a much clearer way. Thanks so much!

Sincerely, Spencer
 
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JagDragon

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God does not create evil. ALthough many verses seem to point tothe fact that He does, but they are merely mistranlations where calamity is replace with evil.

God created everything that is in existence.
Evil exists.
Ergo, God created evil.
 
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Zeena

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God created everything that is in existence.
Evil exists.
Ergo, God created evil.
God did not create evil, evil.. What He created was VERY GOOD, but the devil turned against his Master by his own choice, even as men do today, after the spirit of their father.

Thes 3:3:
But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.
 
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Zeena

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ittarter,
I can enthusiastically endorse that conclusion, as long as you are not suggesting that the nature of the one true God, as demonstrated in Wisdom literature, is different from the nature of the one true God who manifests Himself in the life of Israel and the remainder of the OT.

I sincerely appreciate your making your points in a much clearer way. Thanks so much!

Sincerely, Spencer
I think that's the entire point of the paper, to build bridges between people of opposite sides of the SAME coin! :D

God's Word to us contains BOTH perspectives. :wave:
Maybe I can offer some helpful commentary on this thought-provoking discussion between OzSpen and Zeena.

What's happening is that you two are drawing, respectively, from both the mainline wisdom tradition AND the counter-tradition that arose as a response to it. I suggest that BOTH are present in the Old Testament and NEITHER is complete without the other.

Wisdom literature includes the book of proverbs, a number of key psalms (e.g. Ps. 1), and other scattered references through the OT. Unlike, say, the Pentateuchal or Prophetic traditions, the story of Israel as a nation isn't the focus in Wisdom. Rather, it looks at God's relationships in smaller communities -- villages, social networks, families, individuals. In this context the question isn't "What is God doing with Israel?" but rather "What is God doing with us?" Instead of analyzing the dynasties of a nation, her foreign policy, her kings and her prophets, things like money, listening to elders, temptations, laziness, food, favor -- things that apply to almost everyone at a personal level -- are considered instead. What does daily, mundane life have to do with God? How is God connected to my routine, my life from birth to death, my place in my family, my place in my community? How does faith in God affect me on a practical level?

It is God's desire for universal happiness and blessedness that is relevant here. Certain habits and behaviors are said to be wise if they are regularly associated with this blessedness; likewise, foolish behaviors are marked by working against the grain and bringing death, pain, bitterness, sadness, frustration and anger. These evaluations of mundane lifestyle, now with a cosmic significance -- either working in consonance with God's purposes or working against them -- can be passed down from generation to generation and preserve cultural and religious norms. With newfound authority, the principles of Wisdom can sometimes be so stressed as to be overwhelming to common sense.

Thankfully, sometimes Wisdom gives way to common sense and averts the dangers of absolute social control. This surrender is exemplified within the Hebrew scriptures themselves, most prominently in the books of Job and Ecclesiastes (although Ps. 73 is a simpler, shorter example).

let's look at the book of Job. It challenges the norm, which regularly attempts to iron out the contradictions between real-life experience and theological systems. The character Job experiences a major conflict between tht two. However, to his credit, he refuses to surrender either, and demands instead that God reconcile the two, basically, by making an appearance and presenting an apology (i.e. a defense, not admission of guilt). Divine beings, unfortunately, live a life of their own and make decisions that are inscrutable to us humans down below. Consequently, Job's request is impossible. God, however, has plans of his own. Instead of defending his governance of the universe, God instead makes Job realize that the divine majesty transcends the small moral categories of Proverbs. God is not interested in the questions that torment humanity, but rather he wants people who will tremble before him.

In summary, it is evident that, at the level of Wisdom literature, God is said to promise to run a universe that is consistent and reliable as he is. However, as far as his people can tell, the system fails sometimes fails to make sense of personal experience and leaves them confused as to what can really be trusted. The only final solution is the realization that God is great and humans are as a mist, and that gap can provide sufficient reason to those with faith to, at the very least, keep on at life, believing that the reliability of their Creator does not turn on whether or not they understand the way he chooses to govern the world.
 
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JagDragon

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God did not create evil, evil.. What He created was VERY GOOD, but the devil turned against his Master by his own choice, even as men do today, after the spirit of their father.

But God, in all his omnipotency, must have forseen that the Angel that was later to become the devil would bring evil into the world. Even before he created the Angel/Devil. So, in effect, he did create evil.
 
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Zeena

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But God, in all his omnipotency, must have forseen that the Angel that was later to become the devil would bring evil into the world. Even before he created the Angel/Devil. So, in effect, he did create evil.
No.

For we all know our children will rebel at one point, or another..

But we are not responsible for thier rebellion. :wave:
 
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JagDragon

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No.

For we all know our children will rebel at one point, or another..

But we are not responsible for thier rebellion. :wave:

But God created everything. There was not anything there before he created it. He is responsible for everything, because he created it all and he knew what would happen.

He is responsible for the rebellion of Angel-Satan.
He is responsible for the fact that we sin at all.

If you say he isn't, you are shooting down both his omnipotence and his omniscience at once.
 
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Zeena

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But God created everything. There was not anything there before he created it. He is responsible for everything, because he created it all and he knew what would happen.

He is responsible for the rebellion of Angel-Satan.
He is responsible for the fact that we sin at all.

If you say he isn't, you are shooting down both his omnipotence and his omniscience at once.
And if you say He is responsible for MY sins, in creating me thus, then He OWED it to me to come and be crucified, rather than the free-will offering of Love that it was.. :blush:
 
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JagDragon

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And if you say He is responsible for MY sins, in creating me thus, then He OWED it to me to come and be crucified, rather than the free-will offering of Love that it was.. :blush:

Yes, but why not circumvent the whole notion of creating sin and then sacrificing yourself to destroy it, and just create the universe without sin or evil?
 
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Zeena

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Yes? YES? YES?!?! :doh:

but why not circumvent the whole notion of creating sin and then sacrificing yourself to destroy it, and just create the universe without sin or evil?
WOW, so, you'd rather judge God than be held PERSONALLY accountable for your sins (which Jesus died for, YOUR sins, NOT HIS!-LOL!)? WOW, JUST WOW! :blush:
 
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JagDragon

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Yes? YES? YES?!?! :doh:
Sorry, wrong choice of word there. I agree with you, I am infinitely grateful for the gift of eternal life that Jesus has given me.

WOW, so, you'd rather judge God than be held PERSONALLY acountable for your sins? WOW, JUST WOW! :blush:

I never said anything of the kind. I was just speculating as to why God created sins and evil in the first place, rather than skipping the intermediate step and just create his chosen (predestined) people in heaven.
 
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Zeena

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Sorry, wrong choice of word there. I agree with you, I am infinitely grateful for the gift of eternal life that Jesus has given me.
:doh: Oh okay, WOOPS! :blush:

I never said anything of the kind. I was just speculating as to why God created sins and evil in the first place, rather than skipping the intermediate step and just create his chosen (predestined) people in heaven.
He didn't create sins and evil, and if you believe otherwise then you really are in that first category of men who judge God for creating them thus.

Rather, He created us to be the objects of His Affections (LOVE) in Christ Jesus. :kiss:
And Love is a two way street, even as exemplified in the incarnation of Christ Jesus the Lord, Who LOVED His Father and submitted to Him through that LOVE. :priest:

Therefore, love requires choice to be LOVE!
It takes two to tango ;)
 
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JagDragon

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He didn't create sins and evil, and if you believe otherwise then you really are in that first category of men who judge God for creating them thus.

I resent having an opinion and then being assigned to a category. I'm not "Judging" god, I'm just speculating on why he would choose to create us as sinful beings.

Rather, He created us to be the objects of His Affections (LOVE) in Christ Jesus. :kiss:
And Love is a two way street, even as exemplified in the incarnation of Christ Jesus the Lord, Who LOVED His Father and submitted to Him through that LOVE. :priest:

Therefore, love requires choice to be LOVE!
It takes two to tango ;)

But how, if love requires choice to be, does that deal with the issue of predestination? Even before he created world+angels+people+sin+evil+satan, he knew who would follow him, and who would not. So why the proxy of an earthly life, sin, "free choice", when he knew who would end up in heaven and who would end up in hell?

It's been something I've been struggling to understand since a few weeks ago, when we had a bible study on the issue of predestination.
 
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Zeena

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I resent having an opinion and then being assigned to a category. I'm not "Judging" god, I'm just speculating on why he would choose to create us as sinful beings.
Then why assume He created us sinners, when He said we are 'very good'?

But how, if love requires choice to be, does that deal with the issue of predestination? Even before he created world+angels+people+sin+evil+satan, he knew who would follow him, and who would not.
There you go asserting God created sin again..

Please rethink your stance based upon knowledge, and not supposition;

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So why the proxy of an earthly life, sin, "free choice", when he knew who would end up in heaven and who would end up in hell?
I consider foreknowledge of the people of His choice [namely, Israel] to be predestination in every sense of the word. :wave:

It's been something I've been struggling to understand since a few weeks ago, when we had a bible study on the issue of predestination.
God always planned to have a people after His Name, but He didn't chose who that would be, rather, He left that choice to us. :hug:

Duet 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
 
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JagDragon

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Then why assume He created us sinners, when He said we are 'very good'?

There you go asserting God created sin again..

Please rethink your stance based upon knowledge, and not supposition;

But he did create sin, otherwise it can't exist! Nothing existed before god, so everything that exists now he must have created, or known it was going to happen before he created it.

Suppose I make a robot to perform some trivial purpose, such as fetch my slippers for me in the morning. Then I program intelligence into it, and give it a choice between continuing to give me my slippers, or using its inbuilt laser beam to kill people, knowing full well that it will probably choose the second option. Have I created a killer robot, or just a slipper robot? Am I responsible for the deaths of people then?

Yes I know this is quite a silly example, but it is worth thinking about.

I consider foreknowledge of the people of His choice [namely, Israel] to be predestination in every sense of the word. :wave:
I'm not quite sure where you're going with this - you support the idea of predestination?

God always planned to have a people after His Name, but He didn't chose who that would be, rather, He left that choice to us. :hug:

Romans 8:29-30:
"For [those] whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, [those] whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

This doesn't seem like much of a choice to me, just looks like he picked out a selection of people to go to heaven.
 
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