GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Zeena]

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29)

'The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."' (Matt 13:10-11)

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Cor 2:6-8)

"In [Christ] we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that [God] lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ." (Ephesians 1:7-10)

If you haven't, you need to be reading your Bible more.

Znex, I'm not saying that NOTHING was made known, but that what you asserted was not made known.

Where are we informed that the reason God created cyclones was to punish and or chastise, as you asserted?

.

 

[Zeena]

If it doesn't matter how much you read your bible if God does not give you eyes to see or ears to hear.

Tell Me, which is more powerfull, God's sovereignty or man's freewill?

God, in His Sovereignty, has given man freewill.

Do you not attempt to divorce Him from His creation in posing your question thus?

.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Blaming God for sin is like a thief blaming a store owner for displaying its merchandise, and somehow causing the fellow to break in. If you say God created sin, then you create a unjust God who then becomes completely opposite of what he has revealed, you set yourself to make God a liar.

 

[ittarter]

Are parents responsible for everything their children do?

Well since We are mere humans we are not sovereign over the smallest details of every little thing our children do but I would have to say yes!

We are resposible for teaching our children responsability and shaping the behaviour and attitudes of our children so if they make poor choices then as parents Yes we are responsible.

You said it correctly at first. We are responsible to teach our children. That means if we let them remain ignorant or foolish and sin or break the law or do dangerous things as a consequence, then yes, we are responsible because we didn't teach them. That is as far as our responsibility extends.

Likewise, we can take some responsibility for their successes if we taught them well. If a parent doesn't teach his or her child then there is no reason to be proud because there is no connection between them.

However, if we teach them well and they still choose to do evil, why is it our responsibility?

That's why it is silly to say that God is responsible for evil simply because he created humankind. Your argument needs a lot more work before it could possibly be persuasive.

What do you make of the fact that God claims responibility for Adam and Eve failling the little test in the garden?

Show me this purported claim and we can discuss it.

 

[OzSpen]

Zeena,

Znex, I'm not saying that NOTHING was made known, but that what you asserted was not made known.

Where are we informed that the reason God created cyclones was to punish and or chastise, as you asserted?.

Isaiah 45:7 in the KJV states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


In the NIV it reads: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."


In the ESV, the translation is: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."


The NASB translation is: "The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."
Here is the contrast:

• "I make peace, and I create evil" (KJV);
• "I bring prosperity and create disaster" (NIV);
• "I make well-being and create calamity" (ESV);
• "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does these" (NASB).

Does God, the Lord, create moral evil, i.e. does God create sin, or does he create calamity or disaster? There is quite a difference in the meaning. If God creates all the evil in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of this world, what kind of a God is he? If he creates calamities or disasters what kind of God is he?



I have written briefly on this topic in, “Does God create evil?”


Part of my conclusion is that we can read a similar emphasis in Amos 3:6, which the KJV translates as: "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it?" The NIV translates as: "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"



It is only when there is judgment for sin that the prophets write as in Isa 45:7, "I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" (NIV). "Like a just judge, God decrees punishment for sin but he does not decree acts of sin" (Lewis and Demarest 1987, p. 312).



Sincerely, Spencer

 

[Zeena]

Okay Spence, when and where did God send a cyclone againt the people of His wrath?

Since your so keen on answering.

.

See, all I'm really saying is that we aught not read into what isn't there.. No biggie.. Let's come together on what IS informed us, rather.

Elihu was openly rebuking Job for claiming such, and am I of a different Spirit?

Job 21:15-21; 34:9-37

 

[ittarter]

Okay Spence, when and where did God send a cyclone againt the people of His wrath?

...

Elihu was openly rebuking Job for claiming such, and am I of a different Spirit?

Job 21:15-21; 34:9-37

Maybe I can offer some helpful commentary on this thought-provoking discussion between OzSpen and Zeena.

What's happening is that you two are drawing, respectively, from both the mainline wisdom tradition AND the counter-tradition that arose as a response to it. I suggest that BOTH are present in the Old Testament and NEITHER is complete without the other.

Wisdom literature includes the book of proverbs, a number of key psalms (e.g. Ps. 1), and other scattered references through the OT. Unlike, say, the Pentateuchal or Prophetic traditions, the story of Israel as a nation isn't the focus in Wisdom. Rather, it looks at God's relationships in smaller communities -- villages, social networks, families, individuals. In this context the question isn't "What is God doing with Israel?" but rather "What is God doing with us?" Instead of analyzing the dynasties of a nation, her foreign policy, her kings and her prophets, the counter-Wisdom tradition considers things like money, listening to elders, temptations, laziness, food, favor -- things that apply to almost everyone at a personal level. What does daily, mundane life have to do with God? How is God connected to my routine, my life from birth to death, my place in my family, my place in my community? How does faith in God affect me on a practical level?

It is God's desire for universal happiness and blessedness that is relevant here. Certain habits and behaviors are said to be wise if they are regularly associated with this blessedness; likewise, foolish behaviors are marked by working against the grain and bringing death, pain, bitterness, sadness, frustration and anger. These evaluations of mundane lifestyle, now with a cosmic significance -- either working in consonance with God's purposes or working against them -- can be passed down from generation to generation and preserve cultural and religious norms. With newfound authority, the principles of Wisdom can sometimes be so stressed as to be overwhelming to common sense.

Thankfully, sometimes Wisdom gives way to common sense and averts the dangers of absolute social control. This surrender is exemplified within the Hebrew scriptures themselves, most prominently in the books of Job and Ecclesiastes (although Ps. 73 is a simpler, shorter example).

let's look at the book of Job. It challenges the norm, which regularly attempts to iron out the contradictions between real-life experience and theological systems. The character Job experiences a major conflict between tht two. However, to his credit, he refuses to surrender either, and demands instead that God reconcile the two, basically, by making an appearance and presenting an apology (i.e. a defense, not admission of guilt). Divine beings, unfortunately, live a life of their own and make decisions that are inscrutable to us humans down below. Consequently, Job's request is impossible. God, however, has plans of his own. Instead of defending his governance of the universe, God instead makes Job realize that the divine majesty transcends the small moral categories of Proverbs. God is not interested in the questions that torment humanity, but rather he wants people who will tremble before him.

In summary, it is evident that, at the level of Wisdom literature, God is said to promise to run a universe that is consistent and reliable as he is. However, as far as his people can tell, the system fails sometimes fails to make sense of personal experience and leaves them confused as to what can really be trusted. The only final solution is the realization that God is great and humans are as a mist, and that gap can provide sufficient reason to those with faith to, at the very least, keep on at life, believing that the reliability of their Creator does not turn on whether or not they understand the way he chooses to govern the world.

 

[Zeena]

Amen bro!

That was wonderfully written, I see you have been hard at work developing your gifts and calling in Christ Jesus, to the Glory of our Father.

Though I speak in much simpler terms, the Spirit is the same.

Let's not attempt to put God in a box of our creation.
He is the Creator, we are the created.
We know nothing as we aught.

Hebrews 12:18-24, 28-29
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

..Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Romans 8:18-25
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Psalm 30:5
For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Romans 15:13
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.


.

 

[ittarter]

Amen bro!

That was wonderfully written, I see you have been hard at work developing your gifts and calling in Christ Jesus, to the Glory of our Father.

I modified an excerpt from a paper I wrote in college

Let's not attempt to put God in a box of our creation.
He is the Creator, we are the created.
We know nothing as we aught.

Hebrews 12:18-24, 28-29
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

..Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

So many great passages in the letter to the Hebrews that bespeak fear and trembling. Love it.

Romans 8:18-25
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I like to take eschatological passages communally, not individually. It helps me deal with pain with less escapism on the brain.

Psalm 30:5
For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Great psalm.

Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Another great "fear and trembling" passage from Isaiah. Great selection Thanks for sharing.

 

[OzSpen]

Zeena,

Okay Spence, when and where did God send a cyclone againt the people of His wrath?

Since your so keen on answering.

See, all I'm really saying is that we aught not read into what isn't there.. No biggie.. Let's come together on what IS informed us, rather.

Elihu was openly rebuking Job for claiming such, and am I of a different Spirit?

Job 21:15-21; 34:9-37

When and where did God bring calamity as judgment?

 

[OzSpen]

ittarter,

Your reasoning is too convoluted for me to understand what your are driving at. Please use simpler terms.

Regards, Spencer

 

[Zeena]

Zeena,


When and where did God bring calamity as judgment?

Who says a cyclone is evil? Who says it is Judgment from God?

You?

Or Him?

Jer 51:15-16
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding. When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens; and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Matt 5:45b
he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rom 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Isa 50:10
Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

Matt 8:26
And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
.

 

[packermann]

But unlike the Calvinist, the Catholic does not see everything directly caused by God. Not even everything in nature is directly caused by God. In Matthew 8:26, Jesus rebuked a storm. How can God rebuke something that He directly caused? 1 Corinthians 15:26 says that death is an enemy. But how can death be an enemy if death is directly caused by God? Ecc 7:17 warns that if you are foolish, you can “die before your time”, which means that it is possible to die before God intended you to die. In the Catholic Bible, you also have the Book of Wisdom 19:6, which says “For all creation, in its several kinds, was being made over anew, serving its natural laws”. All these passages show that God does not directly cause every single event in nature to happen.

And Sirach 15:15-20 clearly teaches that man has a free will. It says “If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man's every deed. No man does He command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies”. Unfortunately, the Book of Sirach, which is quickly becoming one of my favorite books in the Old Testament, is not in the Protestant Bible. This is one of the reasons why the Protestant Reformers rejected free will. There is no other clear passage to refute the Calvinist denial of free will when he quotes from Roman 9.


The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Churches teaches “The dignity of the human person is rooted in his or her creation in the image and likeness of God. Endowed with a spiritual and immortal soul, intelligence and free will, the human person is ordered to God and called in soul and in body to eternal beatitude.” (MAN THE IMAGE OF GOD 358). The Catechism of the Catholic Churches teaches that God has set up all of creation to obey its own laws. “There exist interdependence and a hierarchy among creatures as willed by God. At the same time, there is also a unity and solidarity among creatures since all have the same Creator, are loved by him and are ordered to his glory. Respecting the laws inscribed in creation and the relations which derive from the nature of things is, therefore, a principle of wisdom and a foundation for morality” (1:2:1:354). Scientific laws are inscribed into nature by God. How different this is from Calvinism or Islam, which sees everything in nature as being directly caused by God’s hand!

http://defendingthechristianfaith.yolasite.com/god-and-science.php

 

[ittarter]

Your reasoning is too convoluted for me to understand what your are driving at. Please use simpler terms.

Thanks. It was pretty convoluted -- you're right. I've edited the original and hopefully it is comprehensible now. Thanks for your candor.

 

[Zeena]

Thanks. It was pretty convoluted -- you're right. I've edited the original and hopefully it is comprehensible now. Thanks for your candor.

Take your time and re-read it thoroughly Spencer.

I'm SURE you'll enjoy it!

Me, I'm saving it to my hard drive! LOL!
That way, I can have a take on BOTH sides of the die

.

 

[martymonster]

Okay Spence, when and where did God send a cyclone againt the people of His wrath?

Since your so keen on answering.

.

See, all I'm really saying is that we aught not read into what isn't there.. No biggie.. Let's come together on what IS informed us, rather.

Elihu was openly rebuking Job for claiming such, and am I of a different Spirit?

Job 21:15-21; 34:9-37

Sorry Zeena but God did not rebuke Job for accusing Him sending evil upon Him because He was correct in His assertion that God was in fact responsible for the evil that had befallen Him.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

After having said that God is responsible for evil it then says that Job had not sinned by saying it, because it's true.

So what was it that Job did do wrong then?

Self righteousness!

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?


Yes, the whole book is about Job thinking that He was righteous because He was righteous in the flesh which only leads to self righteousness which is filth rags in the nostrils of God.

 

[ittarter]

Marty, hope you don't mind me throwing in my two cents here. It's very much an extension of my earlier post on Wisdom and hopefully the opportunity to apply my thesis to concrete biblical texts is used well.

Sorry Zeena but God did not rebuke Job for accusing Him sending evil upon Him because He was correct in His assertion that God was in fact responsible for the evil that had befallen Him.

According to Job, if that's true, then God is unjust. Your solution does not address the crux of his argument. Nowhere does God claim responsibility for what happened to Job.

So what was it that Job did do wrong then?

Self righteousness!

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Not exactly. The point of this verse is to say that either God is right or Job is right, and Job is betting on the wrong horse. God is always right, whether or not we think we have a "case" against him. In a sense I suppose this could be called "self-righteousness," but not in the modern sense of pride. Job isn't proud -- he's merely confident that he doesn't deserve judgment from God. And he's right. But, contra a merciless application of the Wisdom tradition, God's judgment is not limited solely to situations in which people deserve punishment or require corrective discipline.

 

[ittarter]

But unlike the Calvinist

Who here is a Calvinist? Not me. "Direct causation" of all events in nature is probably a misrepresentation of Reformed theology, anyway. Please cite a reputable source.

And Sirach 15:15-20 clearly teaches that man has a free will. It says “If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man's every deed. No man does He command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies”. Unfortunately, the Book of Sirach, which is quickly becoming one of my favorite books in the Old Testament, is not in the Protestant Bible. This is one of the reasons why the Protestant Reformers rejected free will. There is no other clear passage to refute the Calvinist denial of free will when he quotes from Roman 9.

This text from Sirach is basically a paraphrase from Deuteronomy, minus the last sentence, which has a couple New Testament parallels I can think of. It's certainly clear on the responsibility of humankind to choose wisely, and the option to do otherwise, but the free will debate is a decidedly modern one, using a conceptual framework that simply didn't exist in antiquity, and that's why no appeal to any passage of scripture is ever very conclusive.

 

[anthony55]

oz:

That is a statement of unorthodox Christianity.

Call it what you will, it is biblical Truth.

 

[martymonster]

Marty, hope you don't mind me throwing in my two cents here. It's very much an extension of my earlier post on Wisdom and hopefully the opportunity to apply my thesis to concrete biblical texts is used well.

Not at all ittarter.

According to Job, if that's true, then God is unjust. Your solution does not address the crux of his argument. Nowhere does God claim responsibility for what happened to Job.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

The Lord claims direct responsibility for what happened to Job.
If I hire a hitman kill someone I am directly responsible for their death and so is the case with Satan doing what God has told Him to do.

Not exactly. The point of this verse is to say that either God is right or Job is right, and Job is betting on the wrong horse. God is always right, whether or not we think we have a "case" against him. In a sense I suppose this could be called "self-righteousness," but not in the modern sense of pride. Job isn't proud -- he's merely confident that he doesn't deserve judgment from God. And he's right. But, contra a merciless application of the Wisdom tradition, God's judgment is not limited solely to situations in which people deserve punishment or require corrective discipline.

Sorry but you are wrong, the whole point of Job is that He thinks that He hasn't done anything wrong.

Earlier on Job gives us a long list of all the good works that He has done and compares it to the works of others and what does christ say?


Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Would you say that Job was abased?