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GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!
- Thread starter cksilas
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
How do you allow something which hasn't happened yet. Listen to the words and here. We weren't around for God to allow anything when HE planned our lives before the creation was ever made manifest or ever we took a breath. This is not about blame but understanding. In all thy getting get What? Understanding. To know who God is and not try to place our finite understanding on what He has purposed. Why do you think he has said not to judge by what you see?
hismessenger
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Zeena
..called to BE a Saint
He planned for us to live, not to die.
Ez 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
James 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Matt 12:25-37
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
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God did not create evil, nor is he the progenitor of any evil. Evil was birthed as an external agent, a happening that God was not and is never responsible for. Big difference is, that He has predestined evil to serve a purpose in the grande scheme of things, and so uses evil to accomplish His plans and purposes.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
So what you are saying is the same error that many others express without understanding. There is nothing within the creation that God did not purpose to be. Even the evil. What all olf you are saying is that God didn't know the evil would over take mankind, but then why did he purpose Christ to be our savior from the foundation of the world when we had not even drawn one breath. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT NONSENSE. And can you not see that your trying to place a finite understanding upon and infinite mind of God. HE said his ways are not our ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts because out thoughts have been corrupted by the evil which he purposed from the beginning. Ala Jesus, our savior.
Seeing the see not and hearing they hear not. In all thy getting, get understanding.
hismessenger
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Another thought which should give you pause to ponder on your postion. When Micheal was contending with Satan for the body of Moses, why do you think that he didn't decry Satan as we would, but yet he said, the Lord rebuke you. Think about that situation before you give an answer. There is a definite reason why he did what he did. What do you think it is?
hismessenger
hismessenger
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Doesn't that contradict? Our thoughts are not His thoughts - but by your arguments, since God created evil, God did also create thoughts (plural), so our thoughts ARE His thoughts. Now how does that work?
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
No. In no way does it contradict. A script writer writes the lines for the characters but do the characters know what is in the mind of the writer? God is so much greater than that. But most want to limit Him to what they believe about him rather than what is true about Him.
hismessenger
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So our thoughts are not His thoughts means: our thoughts are not ALL His thoughts. But the thoughts we do have are His because He wrote them for us.
Okay: Jeremiah 32:35 KJV
"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
Here we have God stating that we (men) had a thought that God did not write for us.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
When you tell a child not to take a piece of candy and set the bowl before them, what is the first thing that they will do after they have had a taste of that candy. You're still trying to negate the fact that God already knew what they did, before they did it,knowing the end from the beginning. In other words, God had predestined every thing we do from beginning to end before he created us to fulfill what it is that he has ordained for us to do for His purpose.
There is that little large word All in that passage which many can't seem to understand the implication of. ALL things were created through Him and for Him. It can't be any plainer than that. He has purpose for everything He created. And if it is in this realm of existence, it was created by him. Visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
How many times must it be said who God is? He is everything which we know, are and be.
hismessenger
There is that little large word All in that passage which many can't seem to understand the implication of. ALL things were created through Him and for Him. It can't be any plainer than that. He has purpose for everything He created. And if it is in this realm of existence, it was created by him. Visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
How many times must it be said who God is? He is everything which we know, are and be.
hismessenger
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Evil was not created through Him and it is most not certainly for Him. Understand what this passage means to say. God is not the author of any evil, it baffles me why there are those who even believe this. James 1:13, temptation itself isn't even of God. So clearly we see things of evil have nothing to do with God, He simply allows it because like I said, it plays its part in the grande scheme of things. Not only does He allow it, He also divinely controls it/moniters it. That we are "not tempted beyond what we can bear".
Can you not understand that a being who creates evil is by nature intrinsically evil? By stating "God created evil" you are basically calling God evil.
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This leads you to conclude, then, that prior to the fall, prior to the satanic rebellion, God had still purposed evil to be a part of His divine creation. To think that God would declare Himself to be eternally good, righteous, and holy...yet be the ultimate progenitor of evil and be responsible for all depravity - past, present, and future Clearly this idea has no part in anything Biblical.
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theWaris1
Seeking
So you don't believe the scriptures? Do you reinterpret it the way you want it to read?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
That doesn't really follow logically. If he created a being that does Evil it doesn't necessarily make God evil in the same way you make it sound we could say that.... Since God created a being that flies then God flies too.
God created Flowers and that makes him a flower.
Same principal
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Zeena
..called to BE a Saint
Heb 2:8b
But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.
Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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OzSpen
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Let’s look at a few different translations of Isa 45:7:
- ESV, “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things”.
- NIV, “I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do these things.
- RV, “I form the light and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LOD, that doeth all these things”.
- RSV, “I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things”.
- NRSV, “I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things”.
- ASV, “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things”.
- NASB, “The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these”.
- Douy-Rheims, “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things”.
- NAB, “I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things”.
- NJB, “I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things”.
- NLT, “I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things”.
- KJV, “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things”.
- NKJV, “I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things”.
- NET, “I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things”.
According to the KJV, God creates good (light, peace) and evil (see also Jer. 18:11; Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But there are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God (e.g. 1 John 1:5). Hab. 1:13 states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil” (ESV). James 1:13 confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave us?
We know that God is morally perfect (see Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48). God cannot sin (Heb. 6:18). But there is more to the attributes of God, including his absolute justice that requires that sin be punished by Him. So, there will be judgment by God in this life and eternally (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11-15). So, in this life, when God executes justice we sometimes call this “evil” because from our human perspective, God seems to be committing evil against these people and nations. Were the Indonesian tsunami and the Joplin MO twister examples of God’s “evil” actions?
However, the Hebrew ra, evil/calamity in Isa 45:7, does not always mean moral evil. In the Isa 45 context, the ESV demonstrates that it should be translated as “calamity”, which is how the NKJV also translates it. The context supports this translation. So God is seen as the creator of “evil”, not in the moral sense directly, but as the one who brings judgment/calamity.
God can be seen indirectly as the author of moral evil, but only in the sense that he created moral human beings who had the power of free choice and it is this free choice by us that brought moral evil into the universe. We see the beginning of this in Genesis 3. God created moral beings who had the ability to perform moral evil – and they did. God created free human beings and it is they who made evil real.
God’s making human beings with the possibility of free choice is a good thing. Surely we agree with the idea that human beings can choose one kind of clothing over another, one type of food over another, is a good action by God. Living in a world without choice would seem strange indeed. But the power of choice or free will comes with other consequences – the power for human beings to perform evil actions such as murder, rape, theft and many other evil things.
Thus, we can say that God created only good things and one of those good things was free choice. Moral, but free, human beings produced the evil in our world. Yes, God made the moral universe and indirectly created the possibility of evil in our universe. So, evil is permitted by God, but God does not produce or promote this evil. We know that ultimately a greater good is coming (see Gen. 50:20; Rev. 21-22).
It is an heretical doctrine of Gnosticism that claims that God created evil. It was refuted over and over by the apologists in the early centuries of the Christian church.
I have been helped in providing the above information by Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe 1992. When Critics Ask. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, pp. 271-272 (the new title is, The Big Book of Bible Difficulties). Geisler & Howe summarise:
GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
* In the sense of sin
* Moral evil
* Perversity
* Directly
*Actuality of evil
GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
* In the sense of calamity
* Non-moral evil
* Plagues
* Indirectly
* Possibility of evil
* In the sense of sin
* Moral evil
* Perversity
* Directly
*Actuality of evil
GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
* In the sense of calamity
* Non-moral evil
* Plagues
* Indirectly
* Possibility of evil
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theWaris1
Seeking
I said I don't believe he does evil by creating evil. He created the adversary and the adversary is that one who does evil. Evil simply means bad anyway you cut it.
Take your pick -- RA = adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeasure, distress
He created Satan to fall, imo. He created Satan to be an adversary and to do evil.
The contrast of the breastplate of Aaron vs the one of the Cherub in the garden gives us a clue about the nature of the adversary, imo. >> Jewels
Hidden deep into the message appears to be the characteristics of the Godly man vs that of Satan and reveals that Satan was made to fall. The important characteristics of man is like those stones. We are incomplete alone but completed in the body of Christ. Satan lacked certain qualities that predestined him to fall. Satan was missing 4 important stones or qualities from the beginning. 9 is his number.
Satan was created without the compassion to bear others burdens, to be a servant, to be an over comer or breed Royal seed. 3 of the 4 sound like a recipe for evil.
Job 12:6 The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly.
Why would God allow evil men to prosper though they provoke him and he gives them an abundance? God also allows Satan to continue to work evil.
16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.
Who are not his? Satan is the great deceiver. Will he return through the reconciliation of all things?
Some believe he will, after the judgment and the cleansing fire.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
A Refiners fire Cleanses and purifies Metals and fullers Soap was used to clean Sickness.
That is God's wrath for the wicked.
So who can stand at his appearance? Only those covered in the blood of the lamb. All others will be destined for Cleansing Fire.
God's fire will cleanse as he brings back into harmony ALL things. Eph 2:16 : Col 1:20
the Lake of fire on earth is symbolic of his cleansing Fire.
God said he would destroy the flesh of the wicked and never planned an eternal punishment for them.
The blood of the cross has made peace with all things in heaven and on earth and we await the manifestation of that work.
God is in control of everything
.
Take your pick -- RA = adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeasure, distress
He created Satan to fall, imo. He created Satan to be an adversary and to do evil.
The contrast of the breastplate of Aaron vs the one of the Cherub in the garden gives us a clue about the nature of the adversary, imo. >> Jewels
Hidden deep into the message appears to be the characteristics of the Godly man vs that of Satan and reveals that Satan was made to fall. The important characteristics of man is like those stones. We are incomplete alone but completed in the body of Christ. Satan lacked certain qualities that predestined him to fall. Satan was missing 4 important stones or qualities from the beginning. 9 is his number.
Satan was created without the compassion to bear others burdens, to be a servant, to be an over comer or breed Royal seed. 3 of the 4 sound like a recipe for evil.
Job 12:6 The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly.
Why would God allow evil men to prosper though they provoke him and he gives them an abundance? God also allows Satan to continue to work evil.
16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.
Who are not his? Satan is the great deceiver. Will he return through the reconciliation of all things?
Some believe he will, after the judgment and the cleansing fire.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
A Refiners fire Cleanses and purifies Metals and fullers Soap was used to clean Sickness.
That is God's wrath for the wicked.
So who can stand at his appearance? Only those covered in the blood of the lamb. All others will be destined for Cleansing Fire.
God's fire will cleanse as he brings back into harmony ALL things. Eph 2:16 : Col 1:20
the Lake of fire on earth is symbolic of his cleansing Fire.
God said he would destroy the flesh of the wicked and never planned an eternal punishment for them.
The blood of the cross has made peace with all things in heaven and on earth and we await the manifestation of that work.
God is in control of everything
.
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Zeena
..called to BE a Saint
Heb 2:8-9
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Did the end come? Did we miss it?
1 Cor 15:24-26
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1 Cor 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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theWaris1
Seeking
That is exactly right while we can't see all these things put under him at this time we await the manifestation of his work on the cross
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Eph 1:10
in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;
.
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Eph 1:10
in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;
.
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