GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Mr.Waffles]

So you don't believe the scriptures? Do you reinterpret it the way you want it to read?


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

That doesn't really follow logically. If he created a being that does Evil it doesn't necessarily make God evil in the same way you make it sound we could say that.... Since God created a being that flies then God flies too.
God created Flowers and that makes him a flower.

Same principal

That verse is more correctly translated "calamity", not evil in a general sense. I am doing no such thing as "reinterpreting" scripture. If you want scripture, you go to scripture. Ozspen breaks it down fairly well, God is not the author of evil in a general sense, but in a specific sense. You need to be able to differentiate between these two and not lump them together in error.

 

[theWaris1]

That verse is more correctly translated "calamity", not evil in a general sense. I am doing no such thing as "reinterpreting" scripture. If you want scripture, you go to scripture. Ozspen breaks it down fairly well, God is not the author of evil in a general sense, but in a specific sense. You need to be able to differentiate between these two and not lump them together in error.

The correct word for RA in Hebrew is............
Take your pick - = adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeasure, distress

Again creating a Creature that does evil doesn't make God evil no more than creating Flowers make God a flower.

Evil means BAD and so does RA

Gen 24:50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot speak unto thee bad(RA)or good.

12 times in the KJV OT the word BAD is translated from the word RA in Hebrew



I found 450 time the Word Evil is rendered for RA or ROA of the Hebrew. Roa means Badness.

Evil is the most used word for RA and calmity makes no sense in most verses with RA.



You should consider what has been determined to be the best word for RA and accept the fact that God created Evil just like he said and that your understanding is incorrect here. Then you can start to question that which you don't understand rather than change the wording to fit your incorrect exegesis.

Shlama
peace in the language of Yoshua

.shlkama
Peaecguage of Christ

 

[Mr.Waffles]

The correct word for RA in Hebrew is............
Take your pick - = adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeasure, distress

Again creating a Creature that does evil doesn't make God evil no more than creating Flowers make God a flower.

Evil means BAD and so does RA

Gen 24:50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot speak unto thee bad(RA)or good.

12 times in the KJV OT the word BAD is translated from the word RA in Hebrew



I found 450 time the Word Evil is rendered for RA or ROA of the Hebrew. Roa means Badness.

Evil is the most used word for RA and calmity makes no sense in most verses with RA.



You should consider what has been determined to be the best word for RA and accept the fact that God created Evil just like he said and that your understanding is incorrect here. Then you can start to question that which you don't understand rather than change the wording to fit your incorrect exegesis.

Shlama
peace in the language of Yoshua

.shlkama
Peaecguage of Christ

Incorrect exegesis? Give me a break. I really don't care much for those who are hasty with such accusations and finger pointing. You only prove my point by the way, so I fail to understand what you are rambling about.

adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeasure, distress

Again, specific evil. Not general.

What God isn't responsible for, as has been said...
God is not the author of evil
* In the sense of sin
* Moral evil
* Perversity
* Directly
*Actuality of evil

The only incorrect exegesis here is your perspective of God creating "evil" in a broad general sense, because you fail to differentiate between what He is responsible for and what He isn't.

By the way, you really cannot see your flower example is faulty? If God creates a being who is evil, then the evil is acted by that being, not God. This really is a failed analogy, as it doesn't assume God's direct involvment in orchestrating any kind of evil, but creating a being apart from himself who does.

 

[theWaris1]

Incorrect exegesis? Give me a break. I really don't care much for those who are hasty with such accusations and finger pointing. You only prove my point by the way, so I fail to understand what you are rambling about.

adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeasure, distress

Again, specific evil. Not general.

What God isn't responsible for, as has been said...
God is not the author of evil
* In the sense of sin
* Moral evil
* Perversity
* Directly
*Actuality of evil

The only incorrect exegesis here is your perspective of God creating "evil" in a broad general sense, because you fail to differentiate between what He is responsible for and what He isn't.

By the way, you really cannot see your flower example is faulty? If God creates a being who is evil, then the evil is acted by that being, not God. This really is a failed analogy, as it doesn't assume God's direct involvment in orchestrating any kind of evil, but creating a being apart from himself who does.

I see reading comprehension isn't in your bag. I never said God was evil for creating Evil. But you did. I said it several times that it didn't make him Evil. You obviously only see what you want to see. My last post proved your poor mistranslation of the word RA is faulty.

It would be better to accept what is written rather than reword it to fit your misconceptions. This case is closed.

Shlama

 

[Hismessenger]

Heb 2:8b
But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.

This doesn't change the inference of the entire passage.

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him.

This is the problem with much of the thinking. Because you can't see it or fathom the depth of God you lean to your own understanding. All things were placed under his feet before the foundations of the world were laid. That is the reality of this whole conversation. Thinking in time or living in eternity. Which do you do?

Here is a site link on Pantheism which you should look at.

Pantheist Beliefs

Especially the forth paragraph on the supernatural side of the belief. It falls right in line with what has been said on this thread. But most don't want to face this inevitable truth. If God were to end the creation right now where would evil be. According to what you believe it would still be existent apart from this creation. Then there would have to be something besides God that governs eternity and if you believe that, then I have nothing else to say. It would be futile,

hismessenger

 

[Mr.Waffles]

I see reading comprehension isn't in your bag. I never said God was evil for creating Evil. But you did. I said it several times that it didn't make him Evil. You obviously only see what you want to see. My last post proved your poor mistranslation of the word RA is faulty.

It would be better to accept what is written rather than reword it to fit your misconceptions. This case is closed.

Shlama

By the way, I am not guilty of any "word replacing", and I am not seeing what I "want to see".

Furthermore, it is ironic you accuse me of reading comprehension failure.

I never said God was evil for creating Evil."

This is not what I even implied whatsoever in my previous post.

My last post proved your poor mistranslation of the word RA is faulty.

Let let me again place this list before you, because you are evidently on a high horse and cannot see past your own nose.

Evil in the sense of

*general sin
*moral evil
*depravity and perversity

The sphere of sin and death is not an advent of God, the Bible as a whole is very clear in explaining why these things entered creation and who was responsible for it. You can seemingly dive into the Hebrew yet cannot understand a basic Biblical concept. Nowhere in the Bible, in any sort of renditions of the Hebrew/Greek, will you see such things being attached to God. He did not bring them into the world, and He is not responsible for them.

Case closed indeed

 

[Hismessenger]

The sphere of sin and death is not an advent of God,

Then who's creation is this

hismessenger

 

[Zeena]

Then who's creation is this

hismessenger

The creation has gone astray from it's original intention, it's why Jesus came!

Rom 8:19-25
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

2 Cor 4:1-4
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Luke 4:5 -7
And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Rom 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

[Mr.Waffles]

Then who's creation is this

hismessenger

You are using the wrong c word. It isn't a matter of creation, it is a matter of corruption. From whom has the human race inherited sin and death from? From a Biblical perspective, that is. Fairly sure you can answer that question easily.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi SiH...

It doesn't prove anything of the sort.
At some point in his creation, God created the angels - his messengers.

Where do you find this assertion in the Scriptures?

They were ALL good and were made by him and for him. Even Lucifer (another name for Satan).

Again, please note where GOD "made" ANGELS...

Also, if you wouldn't mind, ...please prove (if you can), that "lucifer" is "another name" for, ..."satan"... this is nothing but a theological assumption, which is WITHOUT BASIS.

The term "lucifer" finds only ONE MENTION in the entire Bible:

Isaiah 14:12

"lucifer" was (possibly) a name (but probably more a descriptive word which means "shining") which REFERENCED and indicated (the character of) the KING of Babylon -- Isaiah 14:4 -- which, in the CONTEXT also notes this "lucifer" to be a MAN -- Isaiah 14:16 -- and that this "man" had a "carcase" -- Isaiah 14:19 -- and that this man is "covered with worms" -- Isaiah 14:12 -- what SPIRIT being, can be "covered with worms"?

Also, this "lucifer", is noted as saying "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will BE LIKE the MOST HIGH"... is that NOT the aspiration WE are ALL to have, Strong in Him? Do YOU not wish to BE LIKE the MOST HIGH? (in HIS IMAGE?) What is "wrong" with such an aspiration?

NOTHING!

He does NOT SAY, that he aspires to BE GOD... He SAYS he aspires to BE LIKE GOD... which IS our MOST HONORABLE aspiration... and our ETERNAL DESTINY, as well -- Matt 5:48

Lucfer tried to start a rebellion against God, he wanted to overthrow him and become more powerful than him.

More unfounded dialogue... where is ANY of this stated?

He persuaded many angels to join him in this plan.

More of the same... where does the WORD record that "lucifer" --- "persuaded" ANY of the ANGELS of God?

They failed - obviously, no one is greater than God - and were all thrown out of heaven.

This is referencing SYMBOLIC language (in the book of Revelation), not LITERAL...

At that point, before man was created, there were fallen angels on the earth. Satan and his angels have been opposing God ever since and trying to turn his creation (us) against him.

More completely unfounded dialogue... where does the WORD record ANYWHERE in It, ...that:

(1) there are/were "fallen angels"... and,

(2) that they were "on the earth before man was created"?

God did not create evil.

Oh really? I think you are deluding yourself SiH... ...the WORD plainly states:

Isaiah 45:7 -- I form light and create darkness; I make peace and ...CREATE EVIL... I YHVH do ALL these...

Lam 3:38 -- Out of the mouth of the MOST HIGH, proceedeth NOT, ...EVIL ...and ...GOOD?

Col 1:16 -- for BY HIM, were ALL THINGS created, that ARE IN HEAVEN, that are IN EARTH, visible, and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or POWERS, ALL THINGS were created BY HIM and ...FOR HIM.

He would have to have been a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to have done so, and most certainly not a God of love, holiness and purity.

That YHVH God has EVIL present in HIS Creation, means that He has determined it to BE in His Creation... otherwise it cannot BE, for ALL THINGS ARE, because HE has decided they ARE.

Like I said, think about it; could the One who hates sin have creted sin? Can love conceive of and create hatred? Could a perfect, loving, merciful, gracious, compassionate God choose to make something that was completely the opposite and alien to his nature?

Let me ask YOU a question... How would YOU KNOW that "UP" is "UP" without the OPPOSING presence of "DOWN"? How would you KNOW that something is INSIDE without OUTSIDE, ...or NEW without OLD, ...or TOP without BOTTOM, ...or SHORT without LONG?

The ONLY way that "His LIVING NATURE" can be identified... is by LIVING illustration, ...that which is LIVING OPPOSITE His NATURE... which WE (as "sinners") are indeed, about "doing", in this life.

If Jesus said that we can tell a tree by its fruits, and a fig tree cannot bear thorns, don't you think this applies to God as well? Because why would he ask us to do something which he was incapable of doing himself?

This is evident in the observation of Holiness... GOD is HOLY... WE are NOT... both are identified for what they "ARE" ...by the presence of the OTHER...

GOD is a LIVING God... and LIVES in RIGHTEOUSNESS - ETERNALLY...

He never varies away from LIVING that "righteousness"... However, ...no portion of His Creation can even KNOW of this "righteousness"... without the other portion of His KNOWLEDGE which is NOW PRESENTED (in the activity of humanity), which was previously UNAVAILABLE and UNKNOWN ...to ANY of His Creation...

GOD not only KNOWS EVIL... He is actively involved in its manifestations.

You cannot separate Him from that which is IN His Creation... He has PURPOSE in the presence of EVIL, which is TEMPORAL and which is ILLUSTRATED in and by the Sons of God (each of us) -- Rom 9:21 -- as, ...of the SAME LUMP (of clay = each of us), is MADE (BY the Potter), ONE vessel unto DISHONOR (FIRST), then ONE vessel unto HONOR (SECOND).

That which is DARK first, then that which is LIGHT second... FLESH first, then the SPIRIT... CORRUPT first, then INCORRUPTIBLE... ...it's all there SiH... you just must continue to seek it, and you WILL find it -- Prov 25:2


Peace...


...willieH

 

[omegadk1]

WILLIEH

(regarding God created Angels) I will post about it

Nehemiah 9

...“Blessed be your glorious name, and may it be exalted above all blessing and praise. 6 You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

Psalms 148

Psalm 148

1 Praise the LORD.

Praise the LORD from the heavens;
praise him in the heights above.
2 Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3 Praise him, sun and moon;
praise him, all you shining stars.
4 Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD,
for at his command they were created,
6 and he established them for ever and ever—
he issued a decree that will never pass away.

There are more, but I am certain that is enough.

 

[omegadk1]

"Also, this "lucifer", is noted as saying "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will BE LIKE the MOST HIGH"... is that NOT the aspiration WE are ALL to have, Strong in Him? Do YOU not wish to BE LIKE the MOST HIGH? (in HIS IMAGE?) What is "wrong" with such an aspiration?"

mmm, no. God kinda punished him for his attitude. Jesus did not even consider equality with God as something to be grasped... why should we? I think you need to read the stories that surround those verses again. I think God found something very wrong with wanting to be like the most high.

 

[James-49]

"As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" - and we are made in the image of God.

"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" - God created through His Word.

--------------------------------------

The idea that God created evil is to insuate that evil is a part of Him. It was mentioned in a previous post that creating a flower does not make God a flower - true, but the created flower does express the character of God.

That scares me hugely to then say He created evil because Jesus warned us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. Meaning, calling the goodness of God evil.

And another thing to consider: Paul taught us that all things created are not unclean of themselves and to be accepted with thanksgiving. So in common sense, should I thank God when I get a bottle of rum and a female companion for a night out - and that makes it okay?

We all stand before the judgement seat of Jesus, and if I don't believe He created evil I know that's not going to get me cast out - BUT - blaspheming against His very character will.

 

[Hismessenger]

The creation has gone astray from it's original intention, it's why Jesus came!

There's that carnal thinking again. If Christ was ordained to save the world before the foundations of the world were laid, do you really believe that the direction of the creation has gone astray from what God had purposed. If you do, then you are saying God is fallible in his divine wisdom and purpose. Can you not see that?

Christ was given to come before the world ever took it's first breath. Why? Because God knew what he had purposed and set in place the attributes which would bring him Glory from everything he created.

hismessenger

 

[Zeena]

There's that carnal thinking again. If Christ was ordained to save the world before the foundations of the world were laid, do you really believe that the direction of the creation has gone astray from what God had purposed. If you do, then you are saying God is fallible in his divine wisdom and purpose. Can you not see that?

Christ was given to come before the world ever took it's first breath. Why? Because God knew what he had purposed and set in place the attributes which would bring him Glory from everything he created.

hismessenger

God never intended for man to sin!

Jer 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

[Hismessenger]

God never intended for man to sin!

So I ask, If man never sinned, would not the divine will of God which ordained Christ to be the savior of the world have been negated thereby making God's word of no effect since Christ would not have been needed to save mankind from himself? God's word can not come back void.

Why can this not be seen for what it is?

hismessenger

 

[Zeena]

So I ask, If man never sinned, would not the divine will of God which ordained Christ to be the savior of the world have been negated thereby making God's word of no effect since Christ would not have been needed to save mankind from himself? God's word can not come back void.

Why can this not be seen for what it is?

hismessenger

You either cannot or will not respond to the plain teaching of Scripture, so instead you throw a hypothetical situation into the pot?

/strawman

For you are saying that if God did things differently then the outcome would be different. Lets just go with what is, okay?

Matt 5:37
But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one.

 

[kelly_lynn]

Isaiah 45:7

 

[Zeena]

Isaiah 45:7

Isa 5:20-24
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

 

[Chris81]

If evil is something God can create, why create evil in the first place? Given all the obvious problems it creates. I mean, God could have just built perfect people who do nothing other than live perfect lives. Wouldn't that just have been easier?