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Giants?...Sons of God?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by TheBear, Jan 19, 2002.

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  1. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Two :)
     
  2. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    the city was known for homosexuallity, but even that is fornication dude.

    habitation
    2.cor 5.2
    for this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our HOUSE which is from heavon.
    this word house is the the same word as for habitation in jude.
    and it isnt speaking of a real house, but the bodily change, or change of nature into christ likeness.
    speaking of christs change within us.
    not speaking of a house.
    here and jude 6-7 are the only places this greek word is found in the bible.
    even in 2.cor the definition is a place of residence as you say, but we can clearly its speaking the heavonly change into christ jesus within us, not a place of habitation.

    ive mistenterpreted nothing, but we may never agree.

    by what authority do you say angles cant have sex, or werent made with the ability? they are only a small bit diffrent than us.

    well how will there be perpetual generations?
    we will never stop producing seed. gen.9.12
     
  3. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    well,
    just cus angles dont get married doesnt mean that they dont have the ability to have sex.
    they did things there were not supposed to by leaving there first estate. and there habitation even if you think it only means place of residence, why cant they do other things they arent supposed to do? like have sex.

    though you dont seem to want that scripture to say what it says about the cities doing what the angles did.

    and can you prove which way the word house is being used?
    it says they left their first estate, and then their habitation.
    estate is clearly place of residence, but did god stutter?
    i believe not. and if you are correct hes basicly saying the same thing twice in a row.

    so
    if humans alone made these giants?
    THEN WE MUST CONCLUDE 4 THINGS.
    1. that ungodly women have the power to produce such monsters when married to godly men.
    2. that godly men have the power to produce giants when married to ungodly women.
    3. that a mixture of godliness and wickedness produces giants.
    4. that extreme wickedness of either part of the parent will produce giants.
    all 4 conclusions are wrong however, as proved everyday by the offspring of wicked and godly parents. thus the theory of giants coming from seths sons, and cains daughters is disproved.

    no one has yet answered that.

    there is no way for a human to make a giant.
    but for something more than human, like an angel, now thats possible.
    myne atleasts make sense. yours never will.
    you base your claims on your assumptions that angels cant have sex, you cant prove that. and humans cant make giants.

    i base myne on the fact that it takes something more than human to make something more than human, and i clearly see how angels had fornication in jude 6-7.
    myne atleast makes sense, and isnt based on assumptions.
     
  4. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

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    That depends on what you mean by the word, "giant."
    The Hebrew word in this context is:

    Heb. nephilim, fallen or mighty ones

    It doesn't necessarily mean a "giant" in the way we think of the english word.

    God Bless
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Junior Member

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    psalms22.3,


    you are intitled to your own opinion, and I am not infalliable either,so my opinion is not absolute,however I feel it is the teaching of scripture...but in the final analysis it is the scripture, which contains the answer-no matter how concealed at present, that is infalliable and true..God be praised forever.

    I wish to comment further about your "time variable' and it's relation to the lineage view. perhaps soon I can, but not now.


    for the moment i would like to comment on giants...

    thanx apologist... by the way giants can also mean tyrants( referring to mighty men of renown who ruled over), indeed all the definitions could be wrapped up in a person or persons..they culd be giants and mightymen,and tyrants, of renown.

    as for the natural production of giants being impossible without angelic interference..I ask;

    1. would you then conclude that giant squid are the offspring of the moe common squid and angelic/demonic beings?

    2. the same would apply to many other such creatures...such as those particular specimens of any species who are uncommonly large in their make up-though identifible as to species ( sharks, whales, horses, dogs, etc.). the list is exhaustive... would you have me conclude that these are not the product of natuaral recreation , and exist from some occurence in the natuaral production of life,but are rather the evident offspring of angelic beings with natural prcreating creatures?

    3. Your conclusions ( 4 as you state) really are only one conclusions stated four ways ( that ungodliness is the cause of giants, in either or both parents). Such is not neccesarily true. Are than any otgher conclusions that can be deducted, and offer other possible combimnations of parents to these giants, than the angelic mixbreeds? certainly. Would you have any clues as to what these are?

    4. if giants are only because of angelic cross breeding, then how do you explain the natural occuring, and medical explained existence of such men of stature in this day, and the not so long ago past? I happen to know men that are giants , in their own right, I went to schoo with them, and know they are not half demon and human, also I knaow that there condition is medical explained and a natural ocurance due to genetic faliabilty and querks... which would have began after the fall and subjection of the body to the effects of sin and death. One expalnation is the addition of an extra vertabrae ( or more) in the spine of some humans which cause them to grow exceptionally tall...and there is certainly more expalnationsd and examples, wouldn't you say?How would you explain men from over seas ( one recently identified from pakistan ) who are modern giants, renowned basketball players who are giants in there own respect ( shack for one ), or othere men such as may be found in the geneius book of world records, the ripleys believ it or not publications , etc. Ne from the distant past of me home state, Chief Tuscaloosa, and Indian chief of exceptionally gtreat stature ( near 10 feet if recall correctly ) of whom the city of Tuscaloosa AL is anmed ( home of the Crimosn Tide)? since you state that the angels that di this are bound, and evidently the other elct angels and demons do not, what would you conclude produced these ginat men?

    5. Do you not suppose that it is praoblt that the genetic make up of man is suffecient through natiural production, and selection to create and effectively reduce the existence of a common lineage or descent of giants, by virtue of God's creation itself?


    I await your replies..and hope that my comments are not taken offensively, for I am truly sincere in them, and in understanding what the scriptures are saying to us.

    your servant in Christ
    Christopher
     
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Junior Member

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    :eek: M.O.G.,

    I just read your post,before it's edit =) it was great! why'd ya cut it all? of course that's your right... but I enjoyed it, and it made since to me. thanx brother.


    Christopher
     
  7. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    PS22.3,

    You say,

    I see some problems with this analogy. First, are we talking physical air, here? If we are, then logic would follow that the written word needs lungs, also. If we are not talking about physical air, but instead the Holy Spirit, are lungs required? This doesn't make any sense to me. Am I the only one having difficulty with this?

    Next, God breathed into Adam, who turned out to be imperfect. Can the same be said of scripture?


    John
     
  8. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    By the way, this is turning out to be quite an interesting and informative thread. Thanks for all the posts. :)

    John
     
  9. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    NO IT IS I WHO UNDERSTANDS SCRIPTURE, NOT YOU!
    HAHA. WE ALL SAY WE UNDERSTAND IT. but someone is wrong.

    adam was a perfect man with free will. scripture is not a living being, does not have a will. i said
    "it always refers to the influence of the holyghost"
    im not talking about anything physical beyong the actuall righting of the scripture.
    the thing about the holyspirit having a body was a totally diffrent subject that spawned off from that.

    apologist.
    i mean goliath or og. you know dang well what i mean.

    christopher,
    who brought up sqids? hahaha im not talking about animals, we really dont know enough about sea creatures like squids to know whether or not that is an unusual thing. weve searched less than like 25% of the ocean. but men, now those we know about, and giants dont happen. and you need to be more than simply uncommonly large to labled a "GIANT" "AS GOLIATH WAS A GIANT".
    but have six fingers and toes like goliath and some others had also.
    and be about 13' tall like goliath was. and be about 18 feet tall like we can logically say Og was due to the size of his bed.
    they carried spears anywhere from 10-25 pounds. goliaths armor weighed 196 pounds. now thats some heavy stuff!
    the isrealites were AS GRASSHOPPERS in size to them.
    this all clearly speaks of men who were much larger than anything we know of today.

    im talking about people like anaks sons.
    you find one of em today show me. please.

    well those 4 are certainly not true at all, but they are the only way the sons of seth and daughters of cain could produce a giant, but they arent true, so, i guess your wrong.

    where do you find that it is the scripture? youve only shown me your thoughts and assumptions.
    when if you only use common sense then myne makes perfect sense in reality of angelic beings.

    ive never seen or heard of a man in hundreds of years, or ever really besides in the bible that was between 13 and 18 feet tall.
    i dont look like a grasshopper to shaq, hes bigger then me, but not alot bigger.
    and shad aint got 6 fingers and toes, and i doubt he could fight with armor that weighs 200 hundred pounds and throw 25 pounds spears.and spears are desighned to go long distances accuratley.

    it clearly says these giants were the product of 1 thing only.
    "the sons of god and the daughters of men"
    not anything else, not evolution, or specail nutrition and eating habits like the tall men our day are effected by.

    why would i take them offensive?

    M.O.G
    BYE BYE :)
     
  10. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    I'm not quite sure what you're saying, PS 22.3.

    You are using "Divinely Breathed In" to justify that God has lungs. But, at the same time, you are using that very same expression to mean "influence" of the Holy Spirit. Which is it? Do they mean different things in different verses, or what?

    John
     
  11. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    NO I DIDNT USE THAT TO JUSTIFY THAT HE HAS LUNGS, I USED THAT TO JUSTIFY THAT HIS WORD IS PERFECT.
    the thing about lungs came from that but its not what i was talking about.
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Junior Member

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    just afew comments in relation to giants/those inparticular you reference psalms22.3


    Goliath was six cubits and a span - my bible equates to 9ft. 9 inches not 13 ft. His spear was 15lbs, by my bibles notes not 25lbs. By the way I know of some who aren't near as big as shaq or others but whop can handle 15 = lbs. sledge hammers like nothing...perhaps then thewy could handle a spear fairly decent, then if you consider there lack compared to Goliath a 15lb or even 25 lb spear would be nothing.

    as for mutations in the hands there are peole born all the time with additional fingers and toes,etc. there are people born with three legs, two heads, all kinds of weird stuff.... they are not the offspring of demons..so how would you rationalize them. By the way this genetic flaw further substantiates my thoughts relative to giants, and compares with the young man I went to school with that had the extra vertebrae, among others.
    as to the possibility of gentic ability,flaw, and the effect of natural selection,etc. you made no mention... do you not evenb consider that it is a vible option and at least leaves the door open to other possibilities?

    I am glad you are not offended at me.. I wish to discuss these things with you.. but I disagree with your postion and hope not to weary you with my continual reply's... that's all.


    more later, Lord will'n

    Christopher
     
  13. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    Hi all

    I also have a question.

    It was said earlier in this thread that "angels" could not
    have sex.

    Well, if they can't, then where does it say they can't in the
    word of God?

    And I don't want something like; "Well, they just can't, I'm telling
    you" because that will mean nothing to me. I need scripture
    please....

    Habitation.....

    If I live in the barn out back, then deside to move my bed into
    the house to live there, then I have changed/moved/left my
    first haitation.

    As far as proof of "angels" having intercourse with flesh woman:

    Genesis 6:4

    There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

    But you must take it back to the Hebrew for a better
    understanding.

    Patrick
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Junior Member

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    pslams22.3


    considering the height according to my notes/references... check out these sights.

    1. www.islandia.is/~juljul/johann/johann_uk.htm

    2. http://chronicdesign.com/outside_news/w6.html

    3. http://tallkhan.paklinks.com/

    4. www.altonweb.com/history/wadlow

    5. these two would have, if indeed they do not , continue (d) to grow!!! - www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_51846.html

    6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_575000/575210.stm

    7. www.ashleighhotel.com/chang.html

    8. www.didyouknow.com/kids/kids7.htm


    hope these are interestimg and insightful. please lok at them all and scan the info., particularly any info. as to why they grew so tall *smile*....

    God bless

    Christopher
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Junior Member

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    dear patrick,


    I believ the scriptures teach us that angels cannot/donot have sex. Jesus said, as hs been already mentioned several times by both sides, that the angles which are in heaven neither marry or are given inmarriage... he also states this to help us understand that there will be a change in our nature in the ressurection, and we will become more like unto the angels, indeed in respect to sexual relations, which are only permissable in the confines of biblical marriage, we will be like the angels, he says. So then his words don't just say the lect angels don't have sex, it implies, and he wouldn't imply falsly , that by there very nature they don't, therefore since it is by their nature thay cannot have sex. Then I ask you to consider the angels which kept not their 1st estate, what estate was that...in heaven, thus by nature like any other angels... so thenin nature... much less in understanding the nature of spirits which do not provreate either,,,which these fallen angels are in state as demons ( that is they are spirits at present, not in an anfelic body like unto gabriel and others ) ..they donot, indeed canot have sexual relations. Jesus who created them, when they were all in heaven, undrstood what they were and could do by nature... he said they neither marry, nor are given in marriage which includes the divine sancton to have sex.


    Chrustopher
     
  16. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    Thanks Christopher

    I will investigate this more. I do have many reasons for
    my belief that "angels" did have intercourse with flesh
    woman, but that would start an whole new thread, and I
    don't think we need that at this time. :)

    I will research more in the Hebrew, and Greek. If it's
    worth stating, then I will post my findings.

    Patrick
     
  17. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    christopher
    you dont use a slegde hammer like a spear do you? uhh no.
    goliath was 6 CUBITS, AND A SPAN. 1st sam.17.4
    a cubit is 25 inches. and a span is 10 inches.
    making 13' 4'' tall.
    ishbibenob's spear weidged 300 shekels of brass. 2cd sam 21.16.
    about 11.3/4 ibs.
    goliaths spear head alone weighed 600 shekels of iron
    or 23 1/2 ibs, counting 224 grains to the shekel.

    the giants of the bible werent genetic flaws or mishaps, they were all like this. not some, or a few. they were all hulking creatures. so, you cannot compare them to the genetic flaws of today, something in them guaranteed them this way. they werent simply errors like the flaws in people today.
    i did address you genetics theory, i said the bible clearly tells how these creatures were made, theres no need for you to think about that, this all happened because the sons of god slept with the daughters of men, it was nothing to do with evolution or anything like that, it was simply someones seed. that simple.

    im fine that you disagree, i disagree with you as well.

    the bible says that angels dont marry, and ressurected people dont marry, but it also says that we will all have our own bodies, as paul said, i will have my body as it is now. though it will be made immortal. simply becuase it isnt there nature to have sex, doesnt mean they cannot. as ive already shown, the change in habitation can soundly mean a 'CHANGING IN ONES NATURE".

    ive asked you over and over without an answer
    WHY DONT DEMONS HAVE BODIES? i know men whove seen demons in their bed rooms, they saw something.
     
  18. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    the main reason i believe gen. 6.4-6 speaks of angels is simply that they are called "the sons of god".
    if you are correct, this is the only place in the old testiment that that term doesnt apply to angles.

    job 1.6 does
    job 2.1 does.
    job 38.7 does.
    dan 3.25. does, v.28 makes it clear this was an angel.
    the king had to revelation of the new testament son of god.
    there is no definite article in the original language so it reads "a son of god".
    and gen.6.4-6 does, though you dont seem to think so.

    and why call the sons of seth the sons of god?
    there was no adoption by christ at this time. only in the new tesament can we cry ABBA FATHER.
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Junior Member

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    sorry, I didn't caych that you were asking over and over about why demons don't have bodies..simply this... if they had a body, a confined housing that they dwelt in, then they would not be able to possess humans, much less multiple possessions,etc.

    on that note, the refernce to demons and animals...if you believthese same beings that possess humans can mate with them, why wouldn't they mate with animals seeing they possess them as well ( Legion in the swine ).

    persoanlly I don't think there is any need to interpret the sons of God as angels in Job... I haven't loked at it in a while, but I don't remeber anything that defined them as angels...it could have very well been an assembly of men who were faithful in there day, like job, to worship God.. indeed the devil entered the gatherings of NT saints...right there with Jesus and the 12... so why not that be the gathering referred to? I supposse either or is fine... I am just simly saying I don't see it as a neccessary interpretation... I'll have to look into it.

    byt hte way... i am not denying the possibility of Giants existing naturally without the defections... but I believe there is reason to believe they could've existed entirely from a natural human birth..you may or may not believ that is where they came from but i don't think you can say in any absolute that it is not possible, even scripturally... else we wouldn't be having thidiscussion, huh.lol it is getting down to the wire ain't it... but I am truly enjoying it.

    as to Giants possible existing pre-flood as a common genetic occurance.. natural selction..especially with none of them entering the flood, would have ended them. Now, Ginats could have passed there genteic makeup through relations in one way or another... and more giants could have been born... besides the idea concerning the genetic brakdown of man after the fall.


    as to the measurments/tomasnelson's chart on bible measurments,etc says that a cubit was 18 inches or 1.5 feet. It says a span was 9 inches . calcualting Goliaths height wouls put him the at 9ft.9inches... not 13ft.

    Christopher
     
  20. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    Hi Christopher

    These demons are not at this time here in the physical
    sense, they are here in spirit. They're actual physical
    body is in chains in heaven right now, along with satan
    himself. But they will be back soon enough....

    Luke 17:26
    And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of
    the Son of man.

    Patrick
     
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