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Giants?...Sons of God?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by TheBear, Jan 19, 2002.

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  1. Christopher

    Christopher Junior Member

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    Dear Patrick,

    that is my point...now I don't know why you believ there bodies are in heaven,etc., and I don't see how that is relative to the biblical account.... Satan possessed the serpent in the garden..thus pre-fall of humanity, the fallen angels ( identified with Satan their chief) were already disembodied. Since we know they are thus disembodied then we know they did not, could not produce offspring..in fact even in their original state/habitation ... their bodies, it is evdient that by nature they still could not produce..see psot above on the nature of angels.

    thanx
    Christopher
     
  2. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    Messianic
    Hello everyone

    Well, I had to step back for a bit, and do some studying, and
    praying. I will not go into a deeper discusion on this topic, I
    don't think this forum is the place to go into something so deep.

    But, I would like to share something that God shared with me
    and my wife yesterday. I feel that it is very importent to us all.

    Satan has many ways of using Gods people against each other,
    and I feel that God has pointed out something to me that will
    be of interest to us all.

    First, a question. What is the most importent thing to us all, to
    all of man kind, and to the world?

    That one thing, (person) would be Jesus Christ. It is absolutely
    importent that no matter what we believe, that we always keep
    Jesus at the most for-front part of our lives. Without Jesus, we
    have nothing anyways, not one single thing. We could quote
    scipture after scripture, but as we should also know, satan himself
    can do that to.....

    If we can do that, if we can stay focused, then we can make it!!

    Some believe there will be a rapture, while some do not believe
    this.

    Others believe that the fallen angels mixed with flesh man,
    and yet others do not.

    I do know one thing for sure. That when Jesus returns, there will
    be no doubt who He is. I don't care who shows up on the planet,
    how they appear, what they say, what kind of fancy show they
    put on, what kind of miracles they preform, what kind love, peace,
    and anything alse they offer, we will know beyond a shadow of a
    doubt when Jesus returns.

    Some of you believe in a rapture. I do not believe that this event
    will take place. I would just like to say, if someone shows up claiming
    to be the christ, to be Jesus, just remember one thing. If you are
    not out of this world instantly, I mean right now!!, be aware of
    who this person is.

    God knows my heart, and He knows how much I love Him. I know
    that if this rapture happens, and everyone is gone instantly, then
    I will be there as well. I will not have a choice in the matter. It will
    just happen, BANG !! that quick.....

    I also know, that God knows the hearts of all those who truely
    love Him. And if there is no rapture, and we are all focused on the
    true Christ, the one and only Jesus Christ, He will be with us at
    the moment that Anti-Christ comes forword, Jesus will, if we allow
    Him to, reveal who this truely is.

    But then, we get back for the reason of this post. Always, always,
    follow Jesus Christ, no matter what, never stopping, always with
    our eye's on Him. We can study all we want to, but without Jesus,
    it means nothing anyway.

    I love you all, God bless you, and keep you......

    Your bother in Christ
    Patrick
     
  3. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    camaro540,

    I agree with the fact that Jesus should be the number one priority among Christians. However, I think it's quite appropriate to discuss any Biblical topic in this discussion forum. This is not a 'Salvation Only' discussion board. And the real beauty of these forums is that Christians get to step outside of their own belief systems, and see why other Christians believe what they do. Another benifit of these boards, is the learning opportunities. I have been edified, on more than one occasion, by talking to other Christians, either face-to-face or in these boards. When I say to myself, "Gosh, I haven't looked at it that way before.", or, "With those scriptures you quoted, this is starting to make sense to me.", I start to appreciate the value of Christian discussion.

    John

    (BTW, I think there is another thread for the discussion of the rapture.)
     
  4. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I have a thought on this that perhaps has not been brought up. If these were fallen angels, why would they be called "sons of God"? That does not make sense that they would be called that if they were demons and I do not recall demons ever in scripture being called sons of God. So considering all scripture I cannot believe that these giants were the offspring of demons and human women.
    Just something to think about.
     
  5. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    hey guys
    ive been gone for many moons.
    im back now, ready to rumble again!
    naa, im simply discussing, im not getting uptight.

    christopher,
    the sons of god, came unto the daughters of men and the daughters of men bore children to them.
    "the same became mighty men,which were of old, men of great renown." refering to the term GIANTS. in verse 4.
    these couples, only made giants, nothing else.
    birth defects dont happen that way.
    it couldnt have been done with a human man and woman.
    oh you might get an occasional retarded child, or a child bodily defects as we do today. but, never do we today see a couple, or rather a RACE OF PEOPLE who produce nothing but abnormal children. it doesnt exist.
    but in this type of sexuality it happened.
    both seth, and cain and naoh all on the earth today, were from adam, so they are no diffrent each other.
    we are the same as they were, and we do not have race of people who only breed defects.
    so, the people who only breed defects must have been from a diffrent people, another lineage. as is explained by angels.

    a demon doesnt need a carnal body to have a body, there are SPIRIT BODIES. its fabric or construction is of spirit, not flesh, but is a body none the less.
    as flesh body, a human, can have a spirit body dwelling inside it, or upon it or covering it, however you define demonpossession.

    i dont think a demon possessing another means they dont have bodies, they certainly dont have flesh bodies, but they do have bodies. spirit bodies. 1 cor. 15.44

    no, the devil is not yet in chains, no part of him.
    he isnt chained untill after the last battle and thrown into the pit along with the antichrist.

    the term sons of god means offspring of god. (though not of sexual endeavors) they are the sons of god, as we are the sons of our parents. our parents created us, (though the power and ability is godly) god created angels.
    all angels are this, whether they turned from him or not.
    the term sons of god, doesnt refer to adoption into christ like we new covenant believers have been adopted.
     
  6. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    christopher
    do you not see that in
    dan 3.25,28
    the man in the fire, was called a SON OF GOD, yet was an angel.
    it says angel.
    job.1.6
    the SONS OF GOD came to the lord, the lord is in heavon. and this book was written about a man that existed before the time of the any assembly of men before the lord, like moses and the isrealites. scholars say (with much evidence i didnt bother to type)that job died about 15 years before the exodus from egypt. before there was an arc of the covenant, before there was a temple. before the dispensation of law, when moses and the ten commandments or any religous ceremonies started.
    how could these SONS OF GOD be humans coming before the lord?
    and satan says he came to this meeting FROM GOING TO AND FRO IN THE EARTH, AND WALKING UP AND DOWN IN IT, it clearly sounds like this meeting was not on earth. so no human attended.

    2.1
    the same thing again.

    38.7
    there is no way possible for these SONS OF GOD to be human.
    becuase these SONS OF GOD "shouted for joy", as
    "THE MORNING STARS SANG, and, he LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH v4"
    no men were present as god was creating the earth.
    not in the first creation, or in the REcreation that we read about after gen 1.2
     
  7. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

    43
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    I'm not sure what answers you have already received since I am 100+ posts behind, but here is what I have read, and been taught.

    These are indeed supposed to be the offspring of the fallen angels. One of the apocolyptical writings has this (I can't remember if it is Revelation, or one of the other writing, but I do know it is some of the teaching I heard as a child.) Anyway, that is why they angels (cohorts) of Lucifer fell. They loved the beauty of the women God had created and left heaven for them. The women, for their part, were also overwhelmed by the beauty of the angels, and gave themselves willingly. The children born from such encounters were larger than the human creations of God. This is why God kicked them out of heaven, and condemned them for eternity. The flood was also to be for the end of them (according to what I was taught).

    Now how much of this is true, I don't know. I do, personally, believe much of what we read in the early books of the bible was "babyspeak" in which God had to talk to us as babies since our emotional and spiritual beings could not comprehend much of what we can understand now. There are no mention of dinosaurs because early man could not comprehend a would covered by huge lizards while no humans existed, but at the same time the could believe in a bird that lived 1000 years, ahd one egg, and when that egg hatched the mother/father (it was both) bird then died in flames and the new bird rose fromt he ashes. (This is mentioned in some of the early church writings. I can't remember if it was Clement, Origen, Tertulian, Justin Martyr, or one of the others)

    Anyway, we are now able to understand more of what God wants us to know, yet we still can not fully comprehend the totalness of his being. So we are in our preteen years in understanding. We can now understand much of the amazing of that age, and even reguard it as normal, but there is much we will not understand, such as if God transends time, or if time effect God too. How did evil thoughts enter the minds of Angels if there is no evil in Heaven? How did Lucifer (satan) become evil in a perfect heaven that has no evil?

    These are all things we will understand when we reach the adult stage mentally.
     
  8. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    Messianic
    Did you ever think maybe, just maybe, we were those angels?

    The word angel simply means, messenger or representative of God.
    Nothing more. They don't have wings, they are not little white
    puffs of clouds, they have the same bodys we do, only right now
    we are in a flesh body.

    Something else to think on.

    Would you agree that angels/sons of God/cherubim's and the like
    have free will?

    Yes, they have free will. If you don't agree with that, then Satan
    would not have rebeled against God. He rebeled because he
    wanted to sit in His seat, he wanted to be God. Thats as about
    free will as you can get......

    Now, why did God create us, what is it that every church you go
    into says about this? Because He wanted to be LOVED, He wanted
    FELLOWSHIP. You can't have true love, and fellowship without free
    will, it can not happen.

    So, now if we where not these angelic beings, why would God
    create us if He has already created beings with free will? He
    would'nt need to would He? He would already have created a
    being that could give Him love, and fellowship.

    When you start to understand that we have been here all
    along, that some of us rebeled against God with Satan, then
    it will all start to make sence to you.

    God had to come up with a plan so His children could come back
    to Him. He loves His children more then we will ever understand.
    So, His plan was to create a flesh body for us to dwell in for a time
    and we would have no rememberence of what had happened in
    the first earth age. Thus, being born innocent through the bag of
    waters, free to make a choice if we follow Him or not....

    The only ones that are on they're way to hell at this point in time
    are satan, and the fallen angels. The angelic beings that chose
    to leave they're first habitation, and not be born through flesh
    woman. They chose to come here and do as they pleased. And
    they did, and still do.....

    Judgement day is close at hand though, He is already pouring
    out His wrath upon the earth, and most don't even know it.

    I will tell you, that you will see the Anti-Christ of Revelations here,
    in the place He should not be, in 7 years or less. Just sit back and
    watch, it's going to be an exciting time, and I can't hardly wait for
    God to tell me what to do..... I study hard now, to be ready....

    Patrick
     
  9. thedoc

    thedoc New Member

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    I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this is duplicate info. If you really want to read about the Sons of God and where the Fallen Angels theory came from then read The Book Of Enoch. I've heard that it used to be included in some old versions of the bible also. It's a very controversial book that has a long and interesting history behind it. If you use the Theophilos bible program you can download The Book Of Enoch for it. I think the whole book is also published on a couple of websites.
     
  10. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

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    I am guessing that this is in responce to my post. If not, then I appologize.

    Let me try and answer what you have said in order.

    I have heard that theory, most recently in a set of books called Converstions With God in which the writer is supposedly channeling for God and these are the questions and Gods answers to them. Needless to say, the author also runs a retreat in South Dakota and is making big bucks off of those desparate enough to believe them. After reading most of the first book, I quickly realized how only the desperate would believe them. God apparently uses Americanisms to speak, like "the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker" is just one of the "quirks" of God speak.

    I am fully aware of the greek word that we took for angel and it's meaning as messanger. I do not agree they have a flesh and blood body on this plain. If they do, it is in another dimension. I do believe they have the power to take on a flesh and blood body, as Genesis states so clearly from the mouth of God after Adam and Eve both had eaten the fruit. They were removed from the Garden of Eden so as to not eat from the Tree of Life also.

    (Gen 3:22 NIV The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.") In every english version, it is plural "us" instead of "me".

    Scripture and verse please. Satan wasn't mentioned once in the early books of the bible. He did not show up until the later books of the prophets, and then mostly as Baalzbub (From the pagan god Baal) No where in scripture does it even say that the serpent was satan. If that were so, then either all snakes are satan, or God cursed a blameless creature that was taken over by satan. But since the fallen angels SUPPOSEDLY come fom later on when there were many women on earth, then he couldn't have been in the serpent at the time BEFORE he fell.

    I don't actually see where the bible says he created the angels The text has the 6 days of creation, a day of "rest" then the creation of Adam and Eve, then the barring from Eden. Before the barring from Eden, He mentions the plurality. If you read that verse again in Genesis, if we were the angels, why would He want us to BE like the angels? The direct quote is "has become like one of us" That implies that before we wre NOT like one of "them". Now since God tells us plainly that there are NO other God's, then the plural must mean the Angels of God. We are NOT the angels, nor the fallen ones, or the bible is false. I personally do not believe it is false.

    If we find the Ark of the Covenant, we will know for sure. The cherubin were formed in gold and placed on either side of the Ark facing together where the flame of God was inbetween them (Exodus 25:17-22) In fact, the Word of God says the Cherubin Do have wings (Exodus 25:20 "The cherubin are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubin are to face each other, looking toward the cover.")

    Book chapter and verse again please?
     
  11. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

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    I don't think it is the full text of the book of Enoch. The original one was not only banned, but also burned. No archeologist has found an ancient copy of the text. The one we see by that name now is supposed to be a forgery. The Sheperd of Hermes is another place where they got the angel levels and more apocolyptic ideas that was widely taught in the first couple hundred years. The book of Enoch (in it's original form) was considered a blasphoemy.
     
  12. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    Do angels have emotions?
     
  13. thedoc

    thedoc New Member

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    Depending on what you consider ancient; a fragment was found in cave 4 at Qumran. I don't think it should be taken as scripture is, I was just sharing some info on the subject. Here is an interesting site about Enoch. http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm
     
  14. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    I would say yes, they do.

    Here are two examples:

    Job 38:7- When the morning stars sang together,
    And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Luke 15:7- I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


    God Bless
     
  15. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    camaro540 said:
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The word angel simply means, messenger or representative of God. Nothing more. They don't have wings, they are not little white puffs of clouds, they have the same bodys we do, only right now we are in a flesh body. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    His_Saving_Grace
    said:
    quote:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am fully aware of the greek word that we took for angel and it's meaning as messanger. I do not agree they have a flesh and blood body on this plain. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I didn't say they had a flesh body. Our body's are a mirror image
    of the angelic bodys....


    His_Saving_Grace
    said:
    quote:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Scripture and verse please. Satan wasn't mentioned once in the early books of the bible. He did not show up until the later books of the prophets, and then mostly as Baalzbub (From the pagan god Baal) No where in scripture does it even say that the serpent was satan. If that were so, then either all snakes are satan, or God cursed a blameless creature that was taken over by satan. But since the fallen angels SUPPOSEDLY come fom later on when there were many women on earth, then he couldn't have been in the serpent at the time BEFORE he fell.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Revelations 12:9

    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent , called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.




    His_Saving_Grace
    said:
    quote:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I don't actually see where the bible says he created the angels The text has the 6 days of creation, a day of "rest" then the creation of Adam and Eve, then the barring from Eden. Before the barring from Eden, He mentions the plurality. If you read that verse again in Genesis, if we were the angels, why would He want us to BE like the angels? The direct quote is "has become like one of us" That implies that before we wre NOT like one of "them". Now since God tells us plainly that there are NO other God's, then the plural must mean the Angels of God. We are NOT the angels, nor the fallen ones, or the bible is false. I personally do not believe it is false.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ezek. 28:13-15 "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering,..... (cont.)

    Is 14:12-15


    Job 38:7
    When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    "during the creation of the world"

    Gen 6:2
    That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    Job 2:1
    Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

    camaro540 said:
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The only ones that are on they're way to hell at this point in time are satan, and the fallen angels.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    His_Saving_Grace
    said:
    quote:
    -------------------------------------------------
    Book chapter and verse again please?
    -------------------------------------------------

    Jhn 17:12
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition ; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Mat 4:24
    And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils , and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

    Devils/plural/more then one
     
  16. djranko

    djranko New Member

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    I believe it was satans way of attacking the blood line of Jesus. Our savior had to be a man born of a woman. Not a half man or half woman.

    Gen 6:9 Noah's family tree was unblemishied, "tamiym" refers to phisical blemish as opposed to spiritual ones!

    Nephilum were around after the flood Numbers 13. When Isreal entered the land of Cannan they were told to kill every man woman and child! Why? Were they dealing with a geneology problem?

    Wickedness exsisted both before and after the flood, what was special about the wickedness happening during the time of Noah?

    This thread has prophetic implications! "As it was in the days of Noah so it will be on the second comming of Jesus"

    Some important notes:
    Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7 Luke 20:36, B'nai HaElohim or "Sons of God" is consistantly refered to as Angles, never believers.

    "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly" 2 Peter 2:4-5 see also Jude 6-7.

    The term for habitation, oivkhth,rion, refers to their heavenly bodies from which they had disrobed

    there is more if your interested.
     
  17. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

    43
    +1
    I know you were. What I was saying wasn't a fragment, but the full book of Enoch the way it was originally written. That fragment isn't enough for us to make the full book out of, and the early church leaders were very forcefully in their denunciation of the book and it's contents
     
  18. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

    43
    +1
    camaro540 said:

    As I said, that does NOT state that the serpent in the garden of Eden was satan. The book of Genesis is very clear in it's description of what God did to the "serpent" for eternity. We have snakes, which is our idea of the "serpent" thanks to the description OF Genesis. Revelation was written 2000+ years after. The 5 books of the Torah, supposedly were written by Moses himself. We know from Exodus that God and Moses had a very personal relationship, to the point where Moses even chastises God about destroying all of those brought from Egypt.

    If Moses WAS the author of even just the book of Genesis, then the creation story came straight from God, in an audible voice. The Revelation of whichever John wrote it, was from a dream state, just as Jeremiah's, Daniel, Elisha, The Shepard of Hermes, the Apocolypse of Peter, et al.

    So either our translation is wrong, or God punished one of his beloved creatures that HE created to get back at a disobedient Angel. If that is the God we are to worship, I would rather not, and take whatever He gives me.

    The point is, that God is NOT that petty. He may have cast some angels from heaven, but we were taught invented reasons for it.

    We are taught that nothing that is evil can enter Heaven, yet are also told satan is pure evil. We are also told that satan is where ALL evil starts, yet He was in heaven when these evil thoughts entered his, and how many other angels, thoughts.

    This being said, and showing that 1: Evil can not be in heaven, or 2: Evil can exist in heaven since Lucifer was in heaven as well as the other 'fallen angels', or 3: We were lied to about the existence of satan and his real power. After extensive study of the bible, Satan actually acts more like the "prosecuting attorney" while Jesus is the attorney for the defendent. Jesus will stand up before God for all those who stood up for Him in life. That is in the bible. The one against us is called "The accuser", which would be satan.

    If you remember in Job, God did NOT treat satan with hate or anger, but with pride in Job. If God hates the evil that is satan, why would he treat him so nicely? And by implication, (since in both chapter 1 and 2 of Job, it says that the sons of God went to see God, and satan came also), the implication is that satan is a son of God. So this leaves us with two basic conclusions. 1: God created satan, so God created evil, or 2: Satan is NOT the purely evil being we were taught, but the truth is we needed a scapegoat to place our transgressions on, and used the one being that was cast from heaven, and evil existed, not as an entity, but as an action that we gave a name to, and tried to manifest into a physical being.

    Your next section doesn't address my statement at all. I said the bible never states God creates the Angels, but they were present not long after the creation at the time of the eating of the fruit of the tree. All the verses you used doesn't address this at all, but some other point that isn't clear from your answer.

    If you read the entire book, you will see he was talking about his apostles/disciples. The son of perdition is Judas, the betrayer portrayed in the bible. This has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

    Again this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. You were stating no one is going to "hell" other than satan and the fallen angels. What does THIS verse have to do with no one of human origin going to "hell"?
     
  19. thedoc

    thedoc New Member

    30
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    Quote: His_Saving_Grace
    "What I was saying wasn't a fragment, but the full book of Enoch the way it was originally written. That fragment isn't enough for us to make the full book out of, and the early church leaders were very forcefully in their denunciation of the book and it's contents."

    Some more info on this. The scrolls at Qumran actually yielded more then just a small fragment of 1 Enoch. In fact, several almost complete copies were found. These were written in Aramaic. Out of the 5 major components of 1 Enoch (Ethiopian text) there was only 1 component that was missing in Qumran. So the text really changed much in about 2000 years.

    Also, the book of Jude seems to have a direct quote from 1 Enoch.

    Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    15 ┬ÂTo execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
    16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

    1 Enoch 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
    To execute judgement upon all,
    And to destroy all the ungodly:
    And to convict all flesh
    Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
    And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
     
  20. Day

    Day New Member

    35
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    Can you talk about Jesus Christ the Man and not talk about salvation?
     
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