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Giants?...Sons of God?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by TheBear, Jan 19, 2002.

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  1. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    United States
    I have been reading through these old threads with interest. Since the Book of Enoch has been discussed with differing ideas about it, here's an article I hope you find of interest.

    Also, there is parallel version of 3 public domain translations of the book here:

    Revision: 4/19/08

    The Sequestration of Enoch
    "Before these things Enoch was hidden, and no one of the children of men knew where he was hidden, and where he abode, and what had become of him. And his activities had to do with the Watchers, and his days were with the holy ones. And I Enoch was blessing the Lord of majesty and the King of the ages, and lo! the Watchers called me -Enoch the scribe- and said to me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers...'" ~ (Book of Enoch 12:1-4)
    These verses show Enoch being called to ministry. We are told Enoch had been hidden away from mankind, spending time worshiping God with the heavenly host. Enoch was hidden away and after some time he received his call to preach God's message.

    The Life of Enoch as Parable

    When this happened, Enoch lived out as if in parable what would be the future status of the book he wrote. Enoch's book, like Enoch, was hidden away for a time, and only now is gradually coming into the spotlight for which it was purposed when written. Enoch indicated this possibility when he said the book he wrote so long ago was "not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come". Enoch also wrote, his book was for the "righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation". (Enoch 1:1-2)

    The period of Enoch being separate and hidden and his calling to his preaching ministry happened before he was translated into heaven. During the days of his earthly sojourn, Enoch the man, entered into the earthly purpose for his life having returned from his days in seclusion.

    Like Enoch, the book he wrote has gone through a period of seclusion, or sequestration if you will. That Enoch would say his book was not for his own generation makes sense when you consider those living in Enoch's day had the preaching of Enoch to listen to. On the other hand, Enoch's words in written form, have become a kind of time-capsule for a later generation which is exactly what is beginning to happen today.

    The Book of Enoch has passed through several phases in its process of sequestration and re-emergence on the world scene.

    Rejected by official Judaism

    The first phase occurred shortly after the ministry of Christ. Though The Book of Enoch had been in wide circulation in the period leading up to the first century A.D., and despite its evident popularity, having been viewed as scripture and quoted in many other books of the day, in the late first century, the spiritual leadership of the Jews at that time, decided upon a strict canon of scripture, one which eliminated Enoch and other books. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has shown that prior to that decision, the Jews had been more willing to consider other writings as scripture and they'd had a special interest in the Book of Enoch in particular; fragments from at least 10 manuscript copies of the book have been found in the Dead Sea Scroll libraries recovered from caves in the Judean desert. Also, the discovery of the Falasha Jewish community of Ethiopia, which had lost contact with the rest of world Jewry before the Christian era has borne this out; the Old Testament of these Jews includes Enoch's book.

    Banned by Church council

    Outside of Judaism, however, the Book of Enoch continued for a time to be popular among early Christian writers and in the churches. Enoch's book is referred to in a positive manner in the writings of Irenaeus, Clement, Tertullian, Athenagoras, Tatian, Lactantius, Methodius, Minucius Felix, Commodianus and Ambrose, being often referred to as scripture. Gradually however, Enoch's popularity dimmed within Christianity. As neo-platonic philosophy and Greek ideas about the nature of angels began to permeate Christian thought, the book fell into disfavor. The book was forbidden by the Council of Laodicea in the 4th century A.D. Apparently, Augustine was influential in further pushing the book into obscurity. Ultimately, the Book of Enoch was removed from the accumulated libraries of the churches of the Mediterranean world.

    Preserved in Ethiopia

    The sequestration of the Book of Enoch was fully underway by the fifth century A.D. The book had passed from being widely available into a state wherein its pages were not allowed read in the churches, neither were its pages thought worthy of being copied and preserved. The book passed into a time in which no one of the children of men in the Greek and Latin worlds knew where it was hidden, and where it abode, and what had become of it. But its hiding was for a purpose. Like Jesus' flight to Egypt, Enoch's book was being preserved for the mission for which it had been purposed at first. From the outset, the Book of Enoch was destined to return from its hidden period to center stage for the benefit of a remote generation which was for to come.

    Enoch's book was hidden for a period of at least twelve-hundred years. During this time, the world outside of Ethiopia was oblivious to the fact the book was being preserved by the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia. Fortunately for the Book of Enoch, the Falasha Jews were themselves not in communication with the people of the Mediterranean world throughout this time.

    Re-Introduced to the World

    Since then, the Book of Enoch has passed through several phases during a prolonged time of its reemergence. The following were the initial phases of the Book of Enoch's re-emergence.
    1. 1773 Reintroduction
    2. 1821 1st Translation
    3. 1883 Clarification
    4. 1913 2nd Translation
    The first phase occurred in the late 1700's. While searching for the source of the Nile, explorer James Bruce acquired three complete copies of the Book of Enoch in the Ethiopic language, Geez (pronounced 'gaze'). These were brought to Europe. Almost 50 years later the first translation of the book in the English language appeared, translated by Archbishop Richard Laurence, Professor of Hebrew at Oxford. It would be more than 60 years before a full revision would be issued in 1883. Nearly 150 years after its reintroduction to the world outside Ethiopia, in 1913, Robert Henry Charles, issued what has become a preferred translation with corrected chapter and verse numbers.

    Authenticated at the Dead Sea

    175 years after the Book of Enoch had re-emerged on the world stage, its message was still discounted by the doubtful who alleged its potential for being a forgery. If the Ethiopic Book of Enoch were a forgery, it would not be the first time someone tried to recreate a 'lost book' and foist it off as original. In fact, there had been forgeries of the Book of Enoch circulated before. The truth is, without some source of external corroboration, a legitimate air of doubt could have remained.

    In the 1950's, all doubts that the Ethiopic Enoch was the same one quoted by New Testament writers were dispelled by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. In the Jewish libraries discovered in caves in the Judean desert, fragments from seven copies of Enoch in Aramaic had survived. An additional three fragments of Greek copies of Enoch were also found there. These fragments have been used to authenticate and spot-check the Ethiopic translation of Enoch. Since the Dead Sea Scroll libraries have been dated to the two centuries before Christ, we now know the Ethiopic Enoch is the real deal.

    Disseminated by the Net

    Since the 1990's, the text of the Book of Enoch has been freely available on the internet. For the first time in history, the Book of Enoch is potentially available to people living anywhere on the planet. Surely the light of the truth contained in the pages of the book Enoch wrote is shining brighter with each passing day. It would appear that against all the odds, Enoch's prophecy concerning the future ministry of his book is in the process of being realized. We are told however, that the Book of Enoch's best days are yet future, for its purpose is for a generation to come.

    Accepted in the Day of Tribulation
    "The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them: The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, and the eternal God will tread upon the earth, even on Mount Sinai, and appear from His camp, and appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens." ~ (Book of Enoch 1:1-4)
    The prophets of Israel from the earliest times, predicted a future time of worldwide trouble that would exceed all other periods of crisis for the world and especially for the descendants of Jacob. The prophets have called this period of time by many names. The two most common titles given to the final period of worldwide trouble in scripture are, "The Day of the Lord" and "The Tribulation", (or "Great Tribulation"). Enoch prophesies his book will be a blessing to those living in "The Day of Tribulation".

    Based upon the above-referenced verses, it is evident Enoch is referring to the biblical Great Tribulation period for the following reasons:
    1. Enoch's "Day of Tribulation" cannot be referring to the then future deluge of Noah's day because the "elect and righteous" were saved from experiencing that tribulation. The tribulation caused by the flood came upon all the ungodly; the righteous were in the ark and protected from that tribulation.
    2. Enoch's "Day of Tribulation" cannot be referring to the tribulation all believers experience at times. Enoch uses the definite article "the" to describe "The Day of Tribulation" denoting a specific period of tribulation which will come. He did not say "this is for those who will be living in tribulation" or "for those who will have tribulation".
    3. Enoch's 'Day of Tribulation' is the time "when all the wicked and godless are to be removed" (Enoch 1:2), which is one of God's purposes for the Great Tribulation also spelled out in the Bible. Isaiah 13:9 reads, "See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it". Isaiah 24:19-20 says, "The earth is broken up, the earth is split asunder, the earth is thoroughly shaken. The earth reels like a drunkard, it sways like a hut in the wind; so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion that it falls —never to rise again". The final end of sin on earth is in view here. Though Noah's family was saved due to Noah's faith, it is apparent that wickedness and godlessness grew up again on earth shortly after the waters of the flood receded.
    4. Lastly, and most importantly, the blessing prophesied by Enoch coming to the elect living in the Day of Tribulation is differentiated by one momentous fact detailed in verses 1:3-4, "Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them: The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, and the eternal God will tread upon the earth." They will be blessed by reason of being the generation living at the time when God will personally come to earth to deliver His elect. It is verse 1:9 of this chapter which at a later time would be quoted by Jude, the half-brother of Jesus, in his New Testament epistle. Jude takes the verse to refer to the second coming of Jesus.
    How will the Book of Enoch become a source of blessing to the elect living in the Day of Tribulation in a way which former generations have not experienced?


    © 2007 Bob Burns
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2008
  2. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    United States
    The Coming Restoration of the Book of Enoch

    For many there remain pertinent doubts concerning the text of Enoch as it has come down to us in our day.

    Much of Enoch's current problem lies with the trustworthiness of its transmission. Had the book been kept entire and transmitted from generation to generation intact in the Hebrew language, people may be more prone to accept it than in its current state. Because the only complete text of Enoch today is the Ethiopic one, it leaves room for people like Jozef T. Milik to be skeptical about its reliability. Milik states that since the extensive middle portion of the book, which portrays the Son of Man sitting in judgment on God's Throne of Glory, has not been corroborated by fragments from the Dead Sea Scroll caves, its composition is from the late 3rd century after Christ. Milik does see Jesus in the Book of Enoch, and because he does, Milik assumes those portions are of Christian origin.

    Fifty years ago the Book of Isaiah had a credibility problem every bit as bad as Enoch does today. Isaiah in the Hebrew scriptures was based upon a Hebrew text from the 9th century AD. The question about Isaiah's transmission led liberal scholars to pose that Isaiah's text as it had come down, had been corrupted during its transmission over the centuries; liberal scholars of an earlier generation had proposed the text of Isaiah had been corrupted by Christian additions.

    The discovery of a complete copy of Isaiah at the Dead Sea put an end to that sort of speculation when it was discovered it was essentially the same textual tradition that the Jews had been preserving since the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

    In the eyes of many, perhaps the credibility of the Book of Enoch could be resurrected should a more ancient copy of the book be found. Should another cache of ancient books be uncovered in which a complete copy of Enoch in Hebrew turns up, the book's importance to salvation history could once again be restored.

    The Book of Enoch: Toward the Future

    Many who, for the first time discover the wonders of the Book of Enoch ask the question, 'Why was Enoch not included in the Bible?'

    A careful examination of the Book of Enoch will show that in many ways it is very unlike other biblical books though in spirit it is thoroughly similar. In light of this, the real wonder is that it was so widely received by so many for so long.

    Among these differences we find the terminology used in Enoch's book is very unlike other biblical books. For instance, one is hard-pressed to find in Enoch anything clearly Judaic in nature. The Law of Moses is nowhere to be found in Enoch. The Sabbath or Sabbath observance is not mentioned. Enoch is bereft of any terminology remotely Mosaic in tone or flavor. This alone makes Enoch unlike any other biblical book including the books of the New Testament.

    The Book of Enoch is also unlike any other biblical book in that it has no reference to the two major covenants. Enoch refers to neither the old covenant made by God with the descendants of Jacob nor to the new covenant made by God with any, both Jew and Gentile, who will put their faith in Jesus, Israel's Messiah.

    These and other differences in the Book of Enoch could have afforded honest questions about its validity (as was also the case with some other old covenant books).

    Despite this, the evidence is there that by the time Jesus arrived, Enoch's Book was widely circulated and highly esteemed. Numerous copies of Enoch were so highly valued as to have been included in the Jewish libraries secreted in the Judean desert and later recovered at the Dead Sea. Consider too, Enoch was alluded to a number of times in the New Testament and even quoted as scripture by Jude the brother of Jesus.
    So, why was Enoch not included in the Bible? How did this wonderful book come to be excluded by Judaism in the Roman Empire after the destruction of Jerusalem, and two and a half centuries later how did it become a banned book within Christendom? Whatever chain of events one can uncover, I believe God's hand can nevertheless be seen in those events. Banished by the religious leaders of Judaism and banned by an organized Christendom, Enoch's book was exiled yet preserved and kept by God amongst a group of Jews who apparently fled Israel's northern kingdom (with Enoch in hand) nearly 800 years before Christ.

    Like a comet on a wide elliptical orbit around the sun, Enoch is a biblical book on an elliptical orbit around the Biblical corpus; its orbit at times bringing it back into closer relation with the rest of the Biblical canon as it is doing in these last days and at such a time as this.

    © 2007 Bob Burns
  3. trentlogain

    trentlogain Junior Member

    What are you talking about there? Please denote bible passages concerning this. Thanks
  4. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    United States
    Since the original poster posted more than 4 years ago, I will attempt to guess at his meaning. More than once I have read posts by people who've steeped themselves in Enochan studies make a connection between the following two verses:
    The explanation I've read is the angels bound in the Abyss in 1 Enoch "shall return" for the purpose of God's utilizing them to lead the unblieving Gentiles to the East of Israel, beyond the Euphrates to invade the Land of Promise. God will mete out His judgment against them there.

    I'm not sure if I'm on-board with this understanding of the text yet since the two passages seem to relate separate events.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  5. Psalms34

    Psalms34 ◄♫♪♫ תהלים ♫♪♫►

    Calvary Chapel
    Oh bummer, this is an old topic, I got all excited that there was a fresh discussion on this topic concerning the Nephilim. But most of the contributors to this old thread are probably not around any longer nor remember the full contents of the discussion of 140 posts to really pick it back up well.

    The book of Enoch is interesting, I’ve been studying that recently. I go with the sons of God being angels and that the Nephilim are hybrid humans with angels, but not on account of Enoch, though of course that book also supports this observation rather well. I could say a lot on this, but I think I’ll wait for a more recent thread with current/active posters.
  6. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    United States
    That's okay, we'll resurrect some. :prayer:
  7. pastortimothy

    pastortimothy New Member

    I cast my lot with the Neph. being hybrid beings of Angels and humans. I don't pretend to know the mechanics behind it, but it seems to bear witness as being as possible as anything else in the Old Testament. Very interesting. Will do more digging.
  8. Starcrystal

    Starcrystal Sheep in Wolves clothing

    The Giants were the preflood offspring of fallen angels and humans. There were also some around after the flood but not as prevalent as before the flood, and the evil was not as bad.
    The angels were not completely evil either and I believe have a capacity to repent.
    The "hybrids" obviously have a capacity to repent.
    Jesus died for sinners and to save the whole world. the entire creation will be refined and redeemed, not just the race of men. Of course much will be purged, but the point is the hybrids can, if they choose to do so, turn to Christ for salvation.
    the descendants of the original post flood hybrids are certainly not held accountable for their fathers sin.

    Ezekiel 18:19 - 23:
    "....doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
    Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

  9. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    United States
    Examining the totality of scripure, including the books which are recognized in the East but not in the West, one is confronted with a profound singularity; among all God's creatures only mankind are afforded the opportunity of repentance. Niether Cherubim, Seraphim, Onanim, Angels nor Nephilim are given the opportunity to repent when they sin, only the children of Adam.

    May we revel in the opportunity, while there is time, to avail ourselves of God's singlular gift.
  10. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

    United States
    Of those 3 theories I rarely hear people bring up 1 and 2. 3 has been the dominant Christian thesis since about the fourth century. But realize a couple things about view #3. View #3 only came into prominence in people's thinking AFTER Greek Gentile ways of thinking dominated the religious thinkers of the Church. I mean Augustine was a veritable Platonist!

    However, things were not always this way. When the folks who gave us the Bible, the Jews, were the only interpreters of the Bible the ONLY explanation of these verses was as follows, the heavenly sons of God, the Watchers (a class of angels) lusted after the daughters of mankind and conspired to break God's law, leave their assigned abode in heaven, take human wives, defile themselves by sexual relations with women and to beget children who turned out to be gigantic. That was the Semitic view.

    This can be confirmed by anyone by picking up a copy of "The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition", by Florentino Garcia Martinez, Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar, and Florentino Garcia Martinez. This is THE MOST exhaustive collection of the non-Hebrew-Bible Dead Sea Scrolls that is available.

    If one begins at the beginning of those tomes and proceeds to read through these fragments from hundreds of Jewish religious documents from about the time of Christ, one will get a profound sense that the preoccupation with the Watcher/Giant saga among the writers of these books borders on obsession. Included are many story fragments from the lives of Lamech, Noah, Enoch, Methuselah and the rest as well as numerous accounts of the history of the Nephilim, the gigantic offspring of the Watchers. One is stricken with the sheer lack of controversy among these writers on this point. To date, I have yet to find even one example from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism wherein some rabbi or religious writer has a controversy with the Watcher/Nephilim thesis.

    There is evidence that this view prevailed among New Testament writers in the New Testament books as well, but that is perhaps better addressed in another post or thread.

    Certainly the idea that angels could even interbreed with human women seems odious to our modern sensibilities and apparently it was also for the leaders of the Church from the fourth century forward. I would like to propose however, this offense to our sensibilities has more to do with Greek assumptions about the nature of angels than it does with any scriptural basis.

    I have detected several areas in which the Church's ideas concerning angels are at major variance with 1st century Semitic ones; here are a couple:

    1. Angelic substantiality
    Per the prevailing ideas about angels among Christians of all stripes, angels are viewed as spirits, without materiality. Western ideas about the essential differences between human carnality and angelic spirituality make the idea of angelic/human copulation seem impossible. In the Semitic writings from 2nd-Temple Judaism no such problem can be detected. There is a consensus among Semitic writers from the period that angelic spirituality as well as angelic carnality were both simultaneously real, and not mutually exclusive. The writer of the Book of Jubilees even speaks of angels having been created in a circumcised state from the beginning.

    2. Angelic peccability
    Per the prevailing ideas of Christians there seems to be somewhat a consensus that somewhere in very ancient times there occurred a rebellion among the members of the heavenly angelic hosts. Whatever the reasons for this rebellion, the result was certain angels aligned themselves with Lucifer, rebelled against God and thus sinning, fell. A seemingly assumed corollary to this view is the idea commonly held among Christians that those angels who did not fall, stood the test and are thenceforth immune to further testing, temptation and the possibility of sinning. No such assumptions can be detected amongst Jewish writers from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism. Not only did angels fall during the time of Jared the father of Enoch, but previous fallings are described as well as future fallings predicted.

    For me, what Jewish writers from the time of Christ believed about this point, later controverted among Christians, holds the more weight. To the Jews were given the oracles of God. The oracles were in a language whose meanings would have been more immediate to them than to us, their own. The Jews lived closer to the times of the actual composition of those writings and thus were more likely to be the inheritors of original traditions related to their exposition, interpretation and understanding.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2008
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